BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:13 PM

What makes me think so--that we're heading for a new Dark Age--is the effect that multinationals have on the economies of individual countries and subsequently the people of those countries. People are once again becoming commodities that we trade. (Here, you take two battalions of these troops and we will take x amount of your export market.

We seem to have less and less feeling for people and more for things. If that ain't 'Dark', what is?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:04 PM

Little Hawk

"How are those people selected?"

By the power of money.

"What gives them their authority?"

The power of money.

I don't think (although I'm not sure) that that is what Slag had in mind but it probably would be the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM

The "power of money" is symptomatic. Money is a token of credibility and confidence. It becomes an obsession when the individual power to generate confidence and belief gets broken down, when his certainty of his own or her own power to generate new connections gets undermined. SOmetimes this comes about by pure physical overwhelm. THe problem is, of course, once one apple in the barrel goes rotten, the rest tend to follow suit to various degrees, and groups engage in a mass copy-fest of poor attitudes and low ethics. An example is the sweep of Republican war-centric beliefs durign the rampup to the Iraq invasion.

So it is not just about money, but also individual strength and ability to communicate and confidence.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

"How are those people selected?"

By the power of money.

"What gives them their authority?"

The power of money.


The same was basically true in ancient Rome too, since wars could not be fought nor power successfully maintained without a ready and adequate supply of money to fund it.

On some occasions, of course, no amount of money could prevent a disaster occurring, as happened to Crassus...the richest man in the world at the time. He recklessly led a Roman army far into Parthia, got attacked by a huge force of Parthian horse archers and heavy cavalry. They first wiped out the relatively small contingent of Roman cavalry in a surprise attack. They then decimated he Roman foot soldiers by showering them with arrows, while the Roman formations were unable to counterattack effectively on foot against the swift Parthian cavalry. Crassus ordered his men to form "the turtle", a formation of interlocking shields which protected infantry from arrows. This rendered the formations unable to protect themselves properly from direct assaults by the Parthian heavy cavalry. The Roman force was annihilated, and Crassus was captured. Since he was famous for being the richest man in the world, the Parthians decided to dispatch him by pouring molten gold down his throat...a very nasty death!

Sometimes money just isn't enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:34 AM

Slag

I wouldn't WANT the job or the responsibility or the publicity!

But the people who do want the job or the responsibility or the publicity are precisely the people who shouldn't be allowed to have it.

It is all CONCERNED, all INFORMED and all who CARE, who ought to be deciding what direction to go that is the best chance we have.

How are those people selected? What gives them their authority?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:45 AM

I think your timing's a bit out there Teribus. Constantinople fell in 1453, by which time the European Renaissance had been under way at least half a century- indeed Brunelleschi was already dead. The initial impetus is more usually credited to the rediscovery of ancient works preserved (usually in Arabic) in Muslim Spain. The looting of Byzantium by the Venetians during the Fourth Crusade probably brought a lot of manuscripts to Italy, but if so they had little immediate effect- unless they were part of the inspiration of the little "renaissance" of the early 13th century, exemplified by Roger Bacon and the Spiritual Franciscans, and suppressed by the Church from mid- century onwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:43 AM

Stiggy the Cookieless writes:

"' It would astound me if our present version of what we call "democracy" was the finest possible social system people can attain to."

Because it isn't - "democracy" has become interchangeable with "capitalism" and along with laissez-faire (sic) economic policies have created a society of astounding inequality (I would suggest you could call this Western Capitalism as practiced in the US, Canada, Australia and UK)."


Wrong! It isn't a democracy and it isn't necessarily capitalism. It is (in the US at any rate) a republic with quasi-democratically elected representatives. Capitalism can happen under most forms of government, e.g. The Peoples Republic of China.

TheSnail! and !! and !!! I wouldn't WANT the job or the responsibility or the publicity! And who is to ultimately say that I am right? If anything I would tend to place myself more in the camp of the self-indulgent. Or perhaps Qoheleth or John the Baptist, the voice in the wilderness. The great thing about freedom of speech in general and this forum in particular is that you can voice your ideas and beliefs and the MORE information that Folks have, the more apt they are to choose a correct, or at least better path. Read again what I wrote. It is all CONCERNED, all INFORMED and all who CARE, who ought to be deciding what direction to go that is the best chance we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:06 AM

"Just keep in mind that it was the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today." - Slag

I believe that you have put the cart before the horse.

The "Rennaissance" and subsequent "Enlightenment" were the result of the fall of Constantinople. This resulted in a mass exodus of scholars fleeing west into Europe. They brought with them knowledge and information that the Roman Catholic Church had for centuries tried to suppress. The invention of the printing press meant that all this information could be rapidly disseminated. If the established church could be wrong about one thing it could wrong about others - that was the view that fired the "Reformations" in Europe, the "Rennaissence" fired the Protestant reformation not the other way about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:08 AM

"Cinnamon for diabetic"

I have a friend who did that - nearly killed himself before dragged off to hospital with a blood syrup level of 56. Have been trying to locate any real info on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

Little Hawk

Does that mean that we are better off ruled by a minority? Not necessarily, because minorities are frequently wrong too!

My position is that rule by a minority would be wrong even if they were right.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM

If you don't have principle at the top, pals, you sure aren't going to get it in the middle management or the trickle-down immorality of the Bush administration years. That's why Barack Obama is critical; he's a force for the light side.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

"I'm not really concerned (at the moment) with the mechanics of implementing a system but with the choice of underlying principle."

Yes, the choice of underlying principle is very important. I think a great many nations and constitutions have been founded upon extremely visionary and idealistic underlying principles...specially following revolutions. Idealists launch revolutions.

Pragmatists and bureaucrats and various powermongers often seem to take over in short order, however.

Perhaps that's because the idealists get in the way of various ambitious people.

Can a majority be wrong? Definitely. Majorities have frequently been wrong. Does that mean that we are better off ruled by a minority? Not necessarily, because minorities are frequently wrong too!

Like I said, it's not a perfect world. We makes mistakes, and as time goes by we learn from them.

In the 30's and 40's, for instance, Germany and Italy and Japan set out on some very aggressive empire-building and warmaking around various regions of the world. For awhile it worked well for them, but in the end it proved to be a huge mistake.

I think the USA is presently making a similarly huge mistake in regards to its so-called "War on Terror", but they have not yet reaped the full consequences of their errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:10 PM

hee hee - was that a "futile" democracy? Oh, no, sorry, you said "feudal" (oops!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:33 PM

the majority can't be trusted to come up with the "right" answer.

Of course they can come up with the right answer, if proper attention is paid to implementing and preserving the system. The US system is best for preserving individual liberty. The British/Canadian/Australian etc etc is the best for domestic peace order and good government.

It is when the system is ignored that the problems occur.

How did the the USA come to point where oaths to obey the Constitution and mottoes like "give me liberty or give me death" are erased by "the Islamic boogie man is lurking under your bed. Be afraid, be very afraid. Only high oil prices, unfettered cronyism and an all powerful Executive Branch can save you."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM

Little Hawk

What were you really asking?

I'm not really concerned (at the moment) with the mechanics of implementing a system but with the choice of underlying principle.

Any system would be subject to the same dangers of being hijacked by the wealthy; it is not just a weakness of democracy.

As I said, this started with Slag's suggestion that the majority can't be trusted to come up with the "right" answer. I'm still waiting for his response.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

Amos,

How are you me old trout?

That was a quote of John Hardly. All the first section in quotes was from him.

My opinion of Hitchens, and my answer to Hardly's comments about him was as follows....

There is is certainly an anti-science, anti-reason trend in the USA, but it is not coming from Dawkins or Hitchens. They are a couple of old fashioned debaters who are only relevant to that section of society who have a firm interest in the intersection of religion and philosophy and no firm grounding in either. Those who know philosophy have heard it all before and made up their own minds.   Those who are firmly grounded in religion really don't care about the opinions of fundamentalist atheists.

I don't know that Mr. Hitchens would appreciate being called a "fundamentalist Atheist" but that is what I call him, believing it to be accurate. He seems far too shrill, and has far too much faith in the power of Atheism to cure the world's ills, to be called anything but.


BTW, sorry for the lack of italics, I seem to have forgotten some of the conventions of what I call "Mudcat Markup Language."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

new corruption that is falsely referred to as "science" -- that of the Dawkins/Hitchens ilk

Guest, it would appear you have never read much of Dawkin's actual presentations. He is analytical and scientific in his data and in his analyses. I would hazard a guess you are reacting against your own perception of 'conclusions you don't like'.

But...let us not start that thread all over again. IF you have read The Blind Watchmaker I think you will agree he is not unscientific.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

The above post, starting with "From Hardly" was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

From Hardly...

"No way. We have more information available than ever before in history -- especially internationally.

Yes, we seem to be going through an uncomfortable, awkward period of time in which many are incapable of discerning reality/fact from disinformation (see the kookiness of religious belief evident in the current thread about 9/11 conspiracies).

So, sure, more people than ever will find a reality that tells them what they want to hear (their favorite conspiracies and cult beliefs) rather than what is actually true, but true science and empiricism will eventually win the day as it has througout history.

The only way I could see us actually heading into a "dark age" is if the new corruption that is falsely referred to as "science" -- that of the Dawkins/Hitchens ilk -- ever really takes hold, I could easily see us sinking into a "Brave New World" of eugenics, genocide, and other abominations done in the name of convenience (or in the name of solving the population crisis). But I have my hopes that that vacuous philosophy will be defeated."

We certainly have more data than ever. Whether it is information or not depends upon our ability to process it.

There is is certainly an anti-science, anti-reason trend in the USA, but it is not coming from Dawkins or Hitchens. They are a couple of old fashioned debaters who are only relevant to that section of society who have a firm interest in the intersection of religion and philosophy and no firm grounding in either. Those who know philosophy have heard it all before and made up their own minds.   Those who are firmly grounded in religion really don't care about the opinions of fundamentalist atheists.

IMHO, there are some trends in our society that do point to the recreation of a dark age. Many of these have been touched upon in this discussion.

The "debate" on climate change. Is a choice of ignorance. I see the politicians, pundits and opinionated boors who oppose it as simply those who do not want to take responsibility for their own wastefulness. We won't recognize Kyoto, because it is not fair that the USA would have to cut more than China. This seems pretty silly to one who has driven in Atlanta during rush hour where a simple sweep of the eyes can see literally hundreds of single occupant 13 MPG SUV's and ones experience indicates that a similar number occupies every quarter mile stretch of dozens of highways in a 50 mile radius.

Nope, people deny global warming because they want their Escalades and Ford Expeditions. It is ignorance by choice. Remember the lyric "There none so blind as those who WILL not see."

People deny evolution because they want to think they are better than monkeys without taking responsibility for being better. Saying that you are God's special creation and that God can absolve all of your mistakes is a lot easier than actually behaving better than monkeys do.

A monkey will shamelessly take another's food or territory, Bush and his minions apparently have shame when they do so. So they feel the need to say that their instructions come from God.
A monkey will shamelessly masturbate another monkey. Larry Craig did similar things but still insists upon his denial of Darwin.
A monkey will shamelessly fling turds at his tormentors. Every politician does this, few embrace their monkeyness.

A self anointed modern American "Christian" leader, whether preacher or Republican, and many self righteous monkeys will claim Devine separation from monkeys, act like a monkey, then blame their monkeyness on their departure from God's will. I think that God did make man in his image, but that he made all other things in his image as well. He simply holds man to a higher standard. It would be a much better, more peaceful world if all men would would embrace their monkeyness while endeavoring to let their humanity prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM

I think you will find that what most of them have is some sort of vague and generalized notion that they live in a land of "liberty and freedom"

To this I would add, "a vague and generalized notion that they live in a land of 'liberty and freedom' and that for this reason, they have a duty to do whatever their government tells them to do".

Ironic, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:17 PM

Sorry!

What were you really asking?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:16 PM

little Hawk

But what you were really asking was "How do we get a group of genuinely enlightened people into positions of leadership?"

No I wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:08 PM

Indeed, LEJ.

How many of your citizens do you think have a good and detailed knowledge nowadays of what's in the USA Constition?

I think you will find that what most of them have is some sort of vague and generalized notion that they live in a land of "liberty and freedom" and that those are supposedly synonynous with the Free Market system, and that's about as far as it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:01 PM

The greatest threat to Democracy is not oppression by the powerful, for that oppression can be overthrown. The greatest threat is apathy of the citizenry, for an apathetic citizenry will never acquire the knowledge to propose a better way of governing themselves, nor muster the raw passion required to set a revolution in motion.

The Roman citizen is a first rate example. As the Republic slid into Empire, the ideals were easily abandoned, for the people were sated with bread and distracted with circuses. But the United States is fortunate in one respect; our ideals of Democracy have a concrete embodiment in the Constitution, and that is a thing that, to an educated populace,should hold more value than bread and circuses. It is for that reason that one should view the erosion of our educational values with despair.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:01 PM

Yes! I've noticed that too. I noticed it last night. Undeniable proof!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:43 PM

Even today when it reaches 6 o'Clock we experience scattered darkness folowed by hours of total darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM

"How is that group selected?"

Oh, well, there are many ways for that. Each society has to find its own procedural ways of selecting its leaders, and we have some ways set up already that actually WOULD work just fine if the influence of big money had not completely perverted and taken over the process.

Your real question should be: "How do we reform our political process so it cannot be hijacked by wealthy interest groups?"



"What gives them their authority?"

Again, the laws enacted in a society are what gives its leaders their authority.

But what you were really asking was "How do we get a group of genuinely enlightened people into positions of leadership?"

Wow! That IS the question, isn't it? Well, I don't know how, under the present circumstances. The odds against it occuring are simply tremendous.

Like I said, I do not expect to see these matters all solved before I die. The world is an imperfect place.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:28 PM

Little Hawk

You also need a genuinely enlightened group of people at the top among the leaders

How is that group selected? What gives them their authority?

On the whole, I think we are arguing from the same side. Remember that my initial posting was in response to Slag's apparent wish to disenfranchise the majority on the grounds that "the majority can be wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM

It bears the outer appearance of a democracy. It has the Constitutional and legal framework in place by which a democracy can, theoretically, be run....providing that the corrupting influence of big money does not compromise and destroy the democratic process.

It's like one of those western town sets in the old movies...it looks real from the front, but there's nothing real behind the facade.

Sadly, mere laws and rules are not enough to protect a society in themselves. A superb constitution cannot protect a society if its spirit is not honored in practice. You also need a genuinely enlightened group of people at the top among the leaders, and you need a very well-educated and well-informed public as well...plus you need a public with high ideals and aspirations...rather than a public tuned in to mere survival coupled with self-indulgence.

These are not easy things to achieve! One would have to remake this society from the top down to restore a genuinely effective democracy and to honor the Constitution's original intent. One would have to eliminate poverty, reduce the enormous gulf between the haves and have-nots, and greatly reduce the effects of commercial advertising. One would have to provide greatly improved education and medical care to all people in the society. One would have to provide more affordable housing and more job opportunities to the unemployed.

All of the above would require bringing in various forms of socialism...a concept which has been turned into a dirty word in the USA by the oligarchs who want only to enrich themselves and maintain their monopolistic habits.

I don't expect any of this to be solved before I shuffle off this mortal coil... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:50 AM

Little Hawk, I was talking about Democracy, not about the way that any particular modern society that choses to call itself a democracy is run.

I completely agree with your last post but as I said before, "Is that democracy?"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:42 AM

The only hope for the majority in a system like that is that an honest and capable politician will somehow slip like a Trojan Horse through the corporate net unnoticed by the oligarchs and actually try to change things once in office...

...and somehow manage to not get killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

Right, Carol.

Snail - Our societies are NOT ruled by the majority! Anything but. Our societies are ruled by a rich oligarchy who control and manage some phony, corrupt political parties who run periodic elections in which the majority are encouraged to go out and rubber stamp some candidates who have been picked by and funded by the rich oligarchs, and who usually are themselves among the ranks of those rich oligarchs.

To imagine that this is genuine rule by the "majority" of our citizens is utter fantasy. The majority no more rules this society than they ruled the Roman Empire under Caesar.

The majority sits helplessly upon their couches, gawking at their TVs, and goes to the mall and buys what the TV tells them to. The majority gets overweight and bored and awash in consumer goods which cannot provide true happiness. At very rare intervals about half of the majority troop wearily out to the polls to choose between tweedeldee, tweedledum, and tweedledummer...all of whom have been hand picked ahead of time and blathered about constantly in the corporate-controlled media...otherwise almost no one would vote for them.

The only hope for the majority in a system like that is that an honest and capable politician will somehow slip like a Trojan Horse through the corporate net unnoticed by the oligarchs and actually try to change things once in office. It's a slender hope, but it's better than no hope at all, right?

This is not majority rule. It's domination of the majority from cradle to grave by a tiny and very rich minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM

and along with laissez-faire economic policies have created a society of astounding inequality

The economic policies are not laissez-faire. The economic policies are those of a cronyistic kleptocracy. That's not in the least bit laissez-faire. It's corrupt, and it's a huge part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:39 AM

Little Hawk

That's correct, if the only things you define AS "the alternatives" are ARE the things that have already been tried AND that are worse.

What all the alternatives to rule by the majority (past, present and future) have in common is that they are rule by a minority, possibly of one. I don't believe this can ever be a good thing.

our present version of what we call "democracy"

Is that democracy?

Slag

Perhaps self interest is the wrong term. Self indulgence to the exclusion of concern for others. Unbridled hedonism? Greed? Want or wantonness? Amoral or immoral self pursuits? I'm hitting all around it but I'm sure you get my drift.

That the heaving masses would be better off ruled by a select elite of virtuous, intelligent people such as yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:33 AM

*. . . is a result of the increasing power of private business seeking nothing more than profit, by religious fundamentalists threatening the rule of law via terrorism and threatening the system from within with it's backward way of thinking and rejection of reason and tolerence.

* Pressed the wrong button : )

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Stigweard sans cookie
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:30 AM

" It would astound me if our present version of what we call "democracy" was the finest possible social system people can attain to."

Because it isn't - "democracy" has become interchangeable with "capitalism" and along with laissez-faire economic policies have created a society of astounding inequality (I would suggest you could call this Western Capitalism as practiced in the US, Canada, Australia and UK).

Of course this is heresy in some parts of the world - the suggestion that the western capitalist system we have spent so long defending has become as corrupt as the alternative systems (I hesitate to use the word ideologies - communism and democracy have never been practiced in their purest form, so we can't be sure which works best) and doesn't serve the needs of the people who live under it. It's not long before the cries of those with vested interests drown out the disenfranchised voices calling for change. The media, big business and the church is largely controlled by white Westerners with a lot to loose if the status quo changes.

The new dark age we find ourselves on the brink of

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:26 AM

Perhaps self interest is the wrong term. Self indulgence to the exclusion of concern for others. Unbridled hedonism? Greed? Want or wantonness? Amoral or immoral self pursuits? I'm hitting all around it but I'm sure you get my drift.

Great Scott! Who wrote "Ivanhoe"? I'll tell you if you can tell me who in the dickens wrote "A Tale of Two Cities"! (Groan)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:03 AM

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.

What the Dickens do you expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:49 PM

That's correct, if the only things you define AS "the alternatives" are ARE the things that have already been tried AND that are worse.

I think there are probably some better possibilities that not only haven't been tried yet, but have quite possibly not even been thought of yet. It would astound me if our present version of what we call "democracy" was the finest possible social system people can attain to. ;-)

Not a chance, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:24 PM

Slag

One of the biggest problems with democracy is that the majority can be wrong and when "Truth" becomes the domain of popular opinion we are in trouble.

Possibly, but as a famous man once said, the alternatives are so much worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

Wal, I agree about ignorance and apathy; but self interest has raised a lot of folks out of a rut. There is a balance quality sometimes referred to as "enlightened self-interest".   I think that is where the sweet spot lies. Strong individual drive combined with an awareness of consequences and how the larger group reaches toward the optimum balance of individual and common interests.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 06:16 PM

True, true. It didn't happen over night and it hasn't reached a magnificent conclusion yet! It is all about the steps forward. Not the side trips and not the backsliding. It's not an easy journey and no one has reached an ultimate awareness. But know that the enemies of human PROGRESS are chiefly those I mentioned: ignorance, apathy, self-interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM

the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today.

When pointing to a successful action, it is a good idea to isolate what it was that was successful.

The Big Idea of the Protestant revolution was that an individual soul has the freedom and right, by the nature of things, to explore Infinity on his own, and no authoritarian dictate should stand between him and his own draft of Infinity.

The witch hunts were a backlash against those principles, I would argue, not an extension of them. A backlash in which the corruption and temptation of power again raised its ugly head even in an organization founded on libertarian principles. What worked as a result of Luther's stand was the notion of individual thought as the primary resource of all social schemes, which was a big slap in the face to the previous principle of Endowed Authority as the primary resource.

But mankind is a roller-coaster crittur, and has built into his makeup the devices which cause the roller-coaster to plunge into ignorance even as it is gathering steam to rise above it again. Mob panic and authoritarian thought have presently intruded further into American life than they usually are, thanks to the right-end extremists like Coulter, Hannity, Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, and other dark-masked clowns of dictatorial bent. So those lements of the Dark Ages -- the espousal of ignorance, fear, uncertainty and doubt -- are more in evidence than they were perhaps under the Kennedy administration, say.

If you hold onto the bar in front of you and keep urging the car forward, the panicky screams of descent can be relplaced by the elation of swooping upwards again, hopefully to a higher peak than you started down from. I'd like to believe that, anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:25 PM

Carol, Bush is a latent dictator and has said he was (abeit jokingly). I think of certain
corporate actions as dictatorial in practice. Oligarchs can be dictators.

"Just keep in mind that it was the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today."

Bear in mind also that the Protestant Reformation gave rise to witch-burning and the subjugation of reason and the advancement of science as well. Reason is being hampered by the vestiges of the Protestant Reformation even today as we find the rise of Fundamentalism and ignorance surrounding us in a dictatorial manner.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

No, I don't see it as a dictatorship (yet), but I do see it as an oligarchy that is in the process of establishing a corporate version of feudalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:34 AM

It really depends on how you define your terms. I disagree with the definition offered in the original post. And "Yes" Rap. I have read "A Canticle For Liebowitz" more than once. A classic of the genre and definitely not limited to the genre.

Elements of a Dark Age are all around us. You can have a technologically advanced civilization and still be immersed in a Dark Age in which the masters of technology become the high priests of all that may be considered beneficial as well as controlling. It is amazing that what transpired in Europe after the collapse of Rome never touched the Far East (though they had a problem of 'social stagnation' but that's another topic) and it was shortly after this time that Muslim Empire(s) reached the height of science and technology of its time. And of course natural causes played an important role in all this too: the Little Ice Age and the plagues to name, probably, the two biggest contributors. Throw in the ascendancy of Aristotelian logic the temporal powers of the Church of Rome and the relation of Charlemagne to the same and you have the recipe for all that is now our history.

The main component of the Dark Ages was IGNORANCE. When the powers structures embrace ignorance and superstition as fact and impose the same upon those who look to them for leadership, look out! Some of the flippant remarks above demonstrate the proper attitude of those who would take us down that road. Oh, I know. It was witty and clever and you *really* know what's going on...but do you? And if you do, how about those who only *think* they know and really believe what you say? It really is a serious topic that deserves a serious discussion because your children and your children's children will reap which ever way this particular discussion goes.

One of the biggest problems with democracy is that the majority can be wrong and when "Truth" becomes the domain of popular opinion we are in trouble. This is one of the reasons why I often stress the need for logic in this forum. And some of you may say "Isn't this the guy who is always trying to make a case for God?" the answer is "Yes!" I do believe in God but I also believe that God gave us the brain power, for the most part, to reason out right from wrong and understand our world on its own terms, whether we believe in Him or not. In other words you can be a religionist or a Christian and be dead wrong about the how-and-why of this world or you can be an atheist and be right on about the how-and-why of our material existence. Of course the reverse is also true. Truth stands on its own. Period. That is why I embrace the scientific method of reasoning concerning all things worldly.

Concerning things spiritual and moral I take Jesus Christ's point of view as delineated in the Bible. And if you wish to debate THAT aspect of what I have said, it is the subject matter in OTHER threads already going. Just keep in mind that it was the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today.

A lot of things and topics have been mentioned above, such as global warming, biodiversity, corporations, Bill Gates, giant lizards and Atlantis, and true or untrue, these things do not get to the heart of what could cause the collapse of our civilization. In all cases it would be a combination of events and circumstances but at the heart of it would be ignorance, apathy and self indulgence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:18 PM

CarolC,

If the exact phrase "feudal dictatorship" had occurred prior to my first post, I would have put it in quotation marks and attributed it to whomever had used it.

Stringsinger's post (Feb. 29, 9:57 a.m.) said, in part, "We are living in a dark age now." He also described President Bush as a "dictator". Your post (Feb. 29, 10:57 a.m.) said, "We're definitely entering a new feudal era, that's for sure."

Did you mean that we are becoming a feudal democracy? If not, do you think we are living in a feudal dictatorship?
   
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Jim Martin
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:54 PM

Seems like you are playing with words - meanwhile the biodiversity of the planet is still disappearing at an alarming rate - which is what really matters!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:53 PM

Yes - headlong, in the case of the US. (Am only answering thread title now, will read rest of conversation soon.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM

LOL!!! I like your false metaphor about how skinny you are(n't), Kent. Good one. ;-)

I think that the metaphor of feudalism could definitely be used to describe the way that giant corporations are exploiting cheap labour all over this world right now. I think that the metaphor of dictatorship could be used to describe how 2 (or more) phony political parties and a compliant national media (all funded and run by the same set of big money players) are being used to defraud the general public and serve the giant corporations. As for "dark age", that's a pretty flexible one. It can simply mean a time when certain key values in society have deteriorated badly. You can make a case for that right now too.