BS: slavery, poverty and culture

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 04:04 PM

Maybe the pity is that they didn't put off dealing with the relatvely minor afront to freedom constituted by the British link until they had sorted out the major afront that was involved in slavery.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

First things first...

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: Strick
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 02:08 PM

Stating the obvious more related to modern slavers, The Shambles, not speaking about anything anyone's said here.

I wasn't blaming the British for the compromise on slavery in the US Constitution, just pointing out the framers of the Constitution were a product of their time and environment and weren't alone in rationalizing slavery in their institutions. I'll repeat that I wish the US had found a way to follow the British model for abolishing slavery in their colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

I can't think of a single excuse for condoning slavery at any point in history.

Was anyone doing this? It was pointed out that many people throughout history and all over the world - when given an opportunity - could and still can find many practical reasons (or excuses) not to do very much to prevent it.

I am not making any excuses as the British Empire has little to be proud of - but it it is difficult to see how "the British" in outlook or education can be blamed for every wrong in the world. Especially for creating a concept like slavery which seems to have developed independently in every part of the world.

Or are all "the British" also to be blamed for the example given of their own people being enslaved by Barbary Pirates?

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: Strick
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 01:16 PM

"I'd be inclined to question whether having limited knowledge of a wider world than your own neighbourhood would really have been a significant factor in making people capable of the kind of detachment from human values that chattel slavery as developed in the USA required. It could well work completely the other way about.

"The people who drew up the American Constitution, and ensured that it left slavery alone, seem to have been quite a sophisticated and kwowledgeable bunch. That kind of sophistication can be quite handy in enabling people to have that sort of detachment."

But there's no denying that they were largely British in their outlook and education or that at the time the US Constitution was being drawn up, slavery was still legal in other British colonies. It wasn't fully banned by the British until much later (and bless the British, their solution to the problem was so much better than a Civil War). Not condemning, just pointing out that the framers of the Constitution weren't the only sophisticated people detached enough to let slavery continue.

What's more appalling is that slavery still exists in the US and other parts of the world. Oh, it's clandestine now, but I've read estimates as high as 50,000 for women held as slaves for the sex trade in the US alone. Some 150 women from South America were "freed" a couple of years ago not more than 25 miles from where I'm sitting. Migrant workers are often treated no better. Apparently you don't even have to have lived 230 years ago to find enslaving people economically attractive. Even some modern sensibilities are detached enough.

I can't think of a single excuse for condoning slavery at any point in history. No one accused of practicing it today would want me on their jury.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 12:58 PM

Slavery was a sad fact long before this all this but it is a little known and interesting fact that people in the coastal villages of England (many in Cornwall) and Ireland were taken into slavery in raids by Barbary Pirates.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/protest_reform/white_slaves_01.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 06:46 AM

It took 13 years of peacefull negotiation, from 1776 to 1787 to draft a Constitution that all 13 colonies would sign. Throughout history there has been no examples of Republics that ever accomplished anywhere near as good a product. Slavery was an issue that divided people on economic and social principles, and could not be completely eliminated at the founding of the nation. As you rightly point out, it was eventually discarded at great cost. However it was addressed from the begining of the nation. Slaves who fought for the country where free men in 1776.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM

So, you end up with a culture that has a limited/local horizon of understanding about the human experience, who often came here under extreme duress, often in a position of power over another group of people who also came here under extreme duress. No wonder slavery was such an incredibly brutal horror.

No doubt about the the horror of slavery. But there is little point in US folk wearing the 'hair shirt'for dubious honour inventing it. Sadly it was a long established concept - long before the settlement of the US.

The concept of educated folk - who should have known better - ignoring it when drafting a constitution was not invented at that point either. Although it did present a golden opportunity to address it - one that would later prove to be very costly.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:23 AM

If one showed Solomon Nothup the present day USA he would perhaps lament at the blood, sweat, tears and time it took to get where we are now; but i'm sure he would be very proud of the accomplishments.
"If Virtue and Knowledge are diffused among the People, they will never be enslav'd. This will be their great Security." -- Samuel Adams

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:38 AM

Thanks for posting that LadyJean - never heard of the man before, but your post prompted me to Google, and here is a page with lots of stuff about him.

What a fitting way to get into St Patrick's Day - an Irish American who is also as African American. A good combination.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 01:05 AM

My seven generations back grandfather was the son of an Irish immigrant, who lived in Abbeville South Carolina, a small town. He was a Presbyterian minister. He preached against slavery in 1810. When that didn't go over in his neighborhood, he packed up his family and left for Ohio. Half his congregation went with him. The town they built is called Fairhaven. It's a nice drive up Ohio 177, near Miami.

Slavery happens when labor is in short supply. The first settlers enslaved Native Americans, Blacks, orphans, debtors, prisoners of war, and assorted others.
The first Black in Maryland began as an indentured servant, and ended up on the governing council. Benjamin Bannacker was the grandson of an Irish woman who married the slave she bought to work her land. Slavery on the big plantations became a hellish institution because the planters couldn't afford to think of their slaves as humans, anymore than the American who owns a factory in Calcutta can think of his employees as human.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: nelagnelag
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:44 PM

McGrath, very interesting point!

One must acknowledge that there was a very wide range of wealth and education at that time (as there is today), which had all kinds of results.

G

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM

I'd be inclined to question whether having limited knowledge of a wider world than your own neighbourhood would really have been a significant factor in making people capable of the kind of detachment from human values that chattel slavery as developed in the USA required. It could well work completely the other way about.

The people who drew up the American Constitution, and ensured that it left slavery alone, seem to have been quite a sophisticated and kwowledgeable bunch. That kind of sophistication can be quite handy in enabling people to have that sort of detachment.

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: nelagnelag
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM

So, I'm also interested in our own "blind spots" about all of this these days. Do we live under the illusion that we are "less tribal"?

(I hope I'm not touching on a very sore spot, but unfortunately I think I am, and maybe it needs to be addressed a bit.)

Subject: RE: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:30 PM

Galen:

Too right.

Life was extraordinarily rugged, and the lack of genuine education in lots of parts of the world made it a self-reinforcing vicious circle.

A

Subject: BS: slavery, poverty and culture
From: nelagnelag
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:21 PM

Hi, I posted this on this thread:
oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa

but it didn't fit super-directly into that, so I've ripped it out and created a new thread:

------

I'll just throw in that I'm reading about the underground railroad right now, and it's pretty interesting. I'm sure I'll run into connections with all of this.

I do get a sense that many of the people who came to the americas came straight from a very rural background, under extreme duress - financial/health/family/religious hardship - , were very parochial in their thinking, and moved to rural areas, where they could continue to be parochial in their thinking. By parochial I mean "tribal", only aware of their own kind of people and way of thinking.

This is why I mentioned the book by Ms. Musick. (Green hills of magic - about european folk-tales in the west-virginia highlands)

So, you end up with a culture that has a limited/local horizon of understanding about the human experience, who often came here under extreme duress, often in a position of power over another group of people who also came here under extreme duress. No wonder slavery was such an incredibly brutal horror.

best,
G