Smoking at Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: PennyBlack
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM

I have more problems with my breathing problems when around strong perfumes than smoke - but then it's a big world and I don't mind sharing it with my fellow humans.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM

Greg, are you missing my point on purpose? Ok, let me be more specific; 75% of us don't smoke. Why? because it is expensive, stupid and potentially fatal. I dare say those of us who don't smoke don't want to smell the stench of those who do, not to mention the danger of having to breathe their toxic fumes.
All that crap about hens etc. is nothing but another "Red herring"

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

Well (and admirably moderately) spoken McGrath! Wish I had your self-control. Respect!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:24 PM

Perfectly true, and I quite agree that was a weak argument for him to have put up, and it deserve to be put down.

But the distinction I was making is not a weak argument. Smoking in a room does interfere with the enjoyment of other people, and the evidence is that it also threatens their health.

Even if the smokers were in a majority, that applies - and that is the logic behind the Irish Supreme Court decision that resulted in the ban on smoking in Irish pubs, because it centred on the right of the person serving the drinks not to have to breathe other people's smoke smoke in his or her place of work.

The analogy with car fumes is a valid one, and legal restrictions on car emissions already go some way towards meeting it. In time they should go a lot further. However I suspect that there are relatively few closed rooms where you will find an internal combustion engine being operated - and there's probably a law against it already.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:06 PM

I was brought up to believe that "freedom" meant the right to do what you liked as long as it didn't affect anybody else. Acts like smoking impact upon others so my right to smoke must be modified by their right not to smoke. Where the majority do not smoke then my right to smoke must become subservient to their right not to smoke.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

McGrath: I am reasonably familiar by now with the "secondary smoking" argument, thought why the same principle doesnt apply to cars I havent quite figured out. My point was purely about kendall's argument, that if 75% of people dont do something, it should be banned. That, to my way of thinking, is not the cornerstone of democracy.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,patriot1314
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:32 PM

mmmmmmm...... strange!
I don't recall saying I was a smoker, I'm maybe just tolerant.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:18 PM

You don't get secondary "guitar-playing, keeping hens, jogging, writing down the numbers on the front of locomotives..." Smoking is different, as has been pointed out repeatedly by several people. It involves putting smoke in the eyes and lungs of other people in the room. A similar effect can be had by setting fire to a paper handkerchief in an ashtray, but for some reason people tend not to do that too often.

If people want to take a quick nicotine fix, use snuff. If they want to blow smoke around, do it outdoors.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:14 PM

Kendall: I'm fascinated by your principle of democracy, that if 75% of the population dont do something, the other 25% should be banned from doing it. Would this apply to other minority activities, like guitar-playing, keeping hens, jogging, writing down the numbers on the front of locomotives, writng to Mudcat?

That argument misses the point. Pretty much completely.

I consider myself a libertarian (lower case), but smoking in public is not a personal liberty issue.

I will defend, with enthusiasm, the right of any adult to smoke at any time, provided that:

1) It is done where no one else has to breath the second-hand smoke - including the smoker's own children, living in his/her residence, and

2) Some arrangement is made for the burden of the additional health care costs to be imposed on the smoking public rather than the general public - like dumping all of the tobacco taxes into the health care system.

But smoking in an enclosed public space is a physical attack on anyone else present, pure and simple. It would be wrong - it was wrong - even when the majority of people smoked. The difference now is, the non-smokers have the power to protect themselves.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM

Come to think of it, wasn't the old USSR run on that principle?
Just joking.
Really.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

Kendall: I'm fascinated by your principle of democracy, that if 75% of the population dont do something, the other 25% should be banned from doing it. Would this apply to other minority activities, like guitar-playing, keeping hens, jogging, writing down the numbers on the front of locomotives, writng to Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:53 PM

So, 14 postings after we said "enough of this silly argument", it goes on. I guess there's always someone who must have the last word (said he!).

GUEST,Patriot1314, I will not even comment on your posting's logic. If you think it makes sense and provides a convincing argument, let's leave it at that. But your posting also contains its own answer. Please, just keep avoiding non-smoking clubs. That way we'll never meet, and we'll both be happy.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:46 PM

I live in a country where majority rules. 75% of us don't smoke. It's not hard to figure.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:41 PM

patriot 1314 try growing up. Your addiction and the lack of the good sense to kick it is not my problem.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,patriot1314
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

1/ Air conditioning DOES work..... my local pub has it, no cloud of smoke (unless the coal fire is on.....it sucks the smoke from the chimney and fills the pub!)

2/ Smoke is HEAVIER than air, so does not drift upwards!

I have been to a couple of non smoking folk nights, the atmosphere was as missing as the smoke was!
The place was full of bank managers and teachers who would'nt know a wild rover if he popped up in their porridge.

How about banning Guinness and blokes with ponytails from folk nights?

Oh!.... if your clothes stink, try washing them..... It works

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:03 AM

Thanks Betsy and McGrath - I needed that!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:57 AM

Phlegmb - that's a pretty nasty word too. But then it would be.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

Phlegmb,
I didn't much care for Roy Castle - but there is no doubt that he was a very highly talented multi-instrumentalist and almost competent singer who did a bit of dancing also.
The competition he faced just to make it through the ranks of the entertainment and musical scene and establish himself was enormous.
I believe he hailed from Huddersfield which at that time contained the highest number of musicians per head of Capita in Britain - and don't forget how elitist ( in the nicest way )the brass bands in that part of the world were,and still are still are, for musicians wishing to enter into their into their ranks.So there is no doubt that the guy was good.
I'm not sure about the secondary smoking - surely if it was the case, he may have been responsible for tertiary smoking - after blowing it all back at us through his instuments.
No need to bang on in a music Forum / thread about other issues, and ,if you get offended by Anglo Saxon - I suggest you raise the matter in a letter of complaint to the Editor of Bunty or some other young girls magazine - after all - they may give a F*ck 'cos S.Johnny and myself (for two)- certainly don't.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:03 AM

Well Phlegmb, glad to see a well-reasoned and skilfully put-together argument there. NOT. My post was a personal recollection of my experience of the man, yours was simply vitriol fired up by hearsay. I reckon personal experience carries more weight.
There, no naughty words to offend your delicate eyes.

Bye Now.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:25 PM

Cllr and Bentley, I like your attitudes, you would make it easy for me.

When I started this thread, I didn't expect to see 100 posts, but we are there.
I posted the first and the 100th so that was good timing :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Bentley
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

I smoke myself,but at Bramley,I have a non-smking policy on a Featured Artist night.On other nights,I leave it to the visitors, but I don't smoke in the function room out of respect to the singers.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Phlegmb
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM

Oh strollin johnny with that ability in the use of the anglo saxon language no wonder you thought Castle was talented.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:49 PM

Maybe I should stand there and start smoking, and then say that I am not going to smoke in the room, and if I want one, I will go outside and I expect everybody else who smokes to do the same.
They don't have to know I don't smoke. :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

I do not allow smoking in my club, I'm just glad I banned it while I was still a smoker, anyone who wants a fag goes into the bar I have had no complaints. Cllr

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM

Don't go there! I had the pleasure (and it was indeed a pleasure) of working with Roy Castle many years ago, and he was an immense talent and a very gracious guy. I know nothing of his financial affairs, nor do I care, they have f**k-all to do with his talent or the circumstances of his death.
Johnny :0(

And for that matter, f**k all to do with this thread.
J

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Phlegmb
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:27 AM

Breezy

Roy Castle's sainted arse. I understand from a friend involved in such matters that Mr Castle managed to pop his clogs without contributing his fair share to the common wealth. Cancer research would benefit more from us all paying our share rather than paying what we want into a collection tin. He made plenty money playing in clubs and he eventually paid the price - or so he said. So much fame -so little talent.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:54 AM

snuff said...

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:08 AM

*huff* don't you *puff* believe it!

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:45 AM

At least, if it comes to a "punch up" the non smokers will last longer.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:22 AM

All in all a very good thread, but I agree time to end it.

Thank you to one and all for your input. Gratefully received.

It still doesn't make life easy, but compromise as much as possible is whats needed.

Bernie Taupin wrote Saturday Nights all right for Fighting, which I umderstand was about Market Rasen. All the mobs from other villages used to come to Market Rasen each Saturday and the night would end up in a glorious punch up. Doesn't happen anymore!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't like that to happen on Friday nights at the Market Rasen Folk Club. :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:16 AM

A handbag with a bomb in it El Greko????
But you're correct, time to wind it down - we're going round and round the same old arguments. Those who want to smoke will never see it any other way, and they're too stubborn to be persuaded by the rest of us who are right!!!!!
Cheers Mate :0)
Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:05 AM

This is a non-argument, folks...let's stub it out.

If I visit non-smoking friends, I don't smoke in their house. Even if they kindly bring out an ashtray for me - I want to leave pleasant memories, not smoke odour in their curtains and upholstery. And I go visit them again - because they are friends. I don't stop my visits for that reason.

Same with the clubs. I will visit, or not visit, based on the quality of the music, the craic, the company. Not based on whether it's smoking or not.

Sheesh... The rest is just dancing around the same old handbag.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:50 AM

Its a real problem.

Its either no smoking, which I agree with, or I try firstly to see what happens if people who want to smoke, go and have a smoke at the far end of the room. They can at least still hear the music. The room is big enough to at least give it a try.
If that doesn't work, then it will be a no smoking venue.

At least I will have tried to accomodate the smokers.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

Villan

All the folk clubs I attend on a regular basis are non smoking in fact it was only Lancfranc who lit up on purpose the other week where they are encouraging it to be smoke free where I can remember smoke and I do attend alot of clubs.

Its the way to go, believe , you will attract more than you'll lose.

If I know its a smoker I'll only go if the money makes it worthwhile but I'll usually ask everyone to refrain from smoking even if the organiser doesnt.

Its in my own interest, sod it, if the smokers dont care, then neither do I if I offend them.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:28 PM

Just got in from another lovely non smoking event, hair is fine clothes don't stink and my throat feels happy, can't wait for the next one.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:22 PM

A few practical points that I don't think have yet been covered are:

Putting smokers at the doors and windows ensures that the slightest breeze will blow their smoke INSIDE.

Air conditioners and fans spread smoke around.

A raised area, like a stage, will get more smoke because it drifts upwards.

People with smaller air passages, like women and children, are more greatly compromised by second-hand smoke. Joy

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

Billy Connolly, among others, once said that saying non smokers can stay up the non smoking end of a room is like telling swimmers they can swim in the non-clorinated end of a swimming pool.
Sadly it's true. I've tried to cope with smoke and asthma for 30 years. I've tried everything and I've heard it all.
                                                       Joy

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:49 PM

He he.
I remember when i used to smoke a pipe. A sherlock holmes one.
I was driving along one day when I accidentally dropped my pipe on my lap. I coudn't do anything other than try to stop safely. That I did, with my trousers already on fire. I was very lucky I didn't burn my privates. I never smoked a pipe again. I also count myself very lucky that I didn't have a crash.
I laugh now but at the time I wasn't laughing.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM

Smoking while you're driving isn't a terribly good idea. Much better to have the full use of both hands

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Betsy you will be pleased to know that I am going to try letting people smoke at the back of the room. If that works, then all the better.
Nuff said. :-)

Are you coming along then on April 23rd?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

I'm a vegetarian (anti-barbecue) non-smoker!

(Giggle)

Still drive a car though - couldn't get to the blessed folk clubs without it.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

I'm a smoker - but if Villain says the Club's rules are No Smoking - then so be it and let's abide by that.
If there's another room to cater for we smokers then good – non-smokers can keep out if they wish.
If there isn't an alternative, - apart from standing outside on a Winter's night, I shall probably look for an alternative sort of evening.
I will definitely think twice about going into a public house where I am not allowed to smoke whilst I having a drink.
If pubs clubs can survive without smokers and cigarette sales - then the game is won.
If not, then a little tolerance and realigning of smoker's behaviour will need to be addressed.
I shall view with interest the very same situation in Ireland.
Just to wander …as many others have in this thread….
With all due respect to those who have lost someone with lung cancer, (my Mum and Dad died of the same), I have no desire to repeat this, but equally I have no desire to die healthy, which is also a possibility if some organisers turn a blind another group of people within their supporters.
Those who perhaps drink too much then drive home from folk nights put innocent smokers like me at serious risk from being knocked over.
Of course this last sentence is tongue in cheek - I'm going over the top and you know it - but it is not outwith the bounds of possibility.
It is this insidious practice of people, minding other people's business, groups mentally bullying other groups with their views, which make me view these prospects as oh so depressing ……………….
Finally don't forget these smokers are generally fond of a drink, and, if the Landlord / Licensee is not making "enough" money over the bar at your Folk night – you may soon end-up a non-smoking, non-drinking night folk night in the Church Hall or the Cub Hut or other . Do me a favour!!!!
How come no one has mentioned Hydrofluorocarbons-the strongest carciogenic found in domestic smoke - Barbcues . Separate thread anyone ??

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:42 AM

Actually it doesn't have to wait for the law - publicans can introduce no smoking policies, and some have. That proabbaly means thye have found that it paid off.

After all, in pretty well all pubs I use, smokers are outnumbered several times over by people who are not smoking.

Perhaps the Irish theme pubs could lead the way, and make the places a bit more authentically Irish.

But I'd not advise asking strangers in pubs to stop smoking, since it'sd be unlikely to work. If I was smoking in a pub, more expeically if noone else in the room was smoking, though I would see it as good manners to ask the people I was with if it was all right, and I would abide by their wishes.

But what really bugs me is when people put their fag down to smoulder away in the ash-tray, or even spiked on a guitar string. At least when it's secondhand smoke the worst of it has been filtered out by the smoker's lungs before it gets to you.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:29 AM

Well, this is a well-rehearsed topic but I'll add my usual two-penn'orth. No, I dont think you should ask people's permission to smoke in a pub(or not in Enfgland anyway). Pubs are places where people go to drink and smoke if they so wish. If you dont like that, lobby for change, but until the change happens dont be obnoxious. In peoples' houses, work places etc, of course you should ask.
   Folk clubs: simple, make your own rules if its in a private room, and ask people to stick to them. People won't object, if they do, throw them down the stairs.
    But telling people to stop smoking in a pub is like asking people to stop shagging in a brothel. You may not approve, but let's face it, that's what the place is for. Of course, in the fullness of time qnd with appropriate legislation, brothels may turn into place where people go to read the Guardian and eat tofu-burgers. But till then...
    I speak as a non-smoker, but when I go up to the Jolly Porters for a pint I know many people there have gone to enjoy their cigarettes. I have no intention of asking them to stop. When parliament decides otherwise, so be it. And there will still be exhaust belching cars driving past the pub. Smoke stinks, but not as much as hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:35 AM

Plenty of pompous people speak their mind. Still. if the

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:32 AM

I know this man, and believe me, he is anything but pompous. He speaks his mind.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:19 AM

Well, I'd call that pompous and excessive, and the kind of attitude that makes it harder to get non-smoking policies accepted. When you're congregated outside I'd say it's fair enough to get the smokers to stand downwind.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

Smoking in any public place - or in a private home if there are children there - is just plain wrong. If someone punches me in the nose, other than in self-defense, he goes to jail if there's a cop around. If he blows poison gas in my face, he claims I'm infringing on his rights if I complain. Pack of a******s.

Smoking in a place where someone is trying to sing for the enjoyment of other people who have paid to hear him/her, is wrong to several higher orders of magnitude. They're sabotaging the performer's gig as surely as if they set off a siren during the song.

Smoking tobacco has been described as the only manufactured product which, if used strictly according to the manufacturer's instructions, is fatal to the user. In some cases, that's a public service; but it's fatal to the other people in the vicinity, too.

Last summer we did a gig for a politician. When he went to do his speech, we'd already heard it, so we went outside to wait, and consume the free sodas and ice cream, so we could tear down when he was finished. A lady came out and asked if it was all right to smoke where we were. I said, sure, if you don't mind if I pick my nose and flick it at you. She went off in a huff. Seemed fair to me. I'd have been doing her lots less harm than she would me.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:48 AM

How about an anti-smoking shanty? Here's a couple of choruses - add verses to taste

Puff away you superkings
Puff away, drag way
Emphysema's all it brings
Cancer and heart failure

Farewell to my Marlboros and Rothmans
No more with a cig I'll be seen
I'm giving up smoking
You may think I'm joking
But you'll never see me with Rizlas green

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:48 AM

This is an answer from one of the artists who attended the opening evening.

>I would like an honest answer as to how you would feel, if I
asked all smokers if they wouldn't mind having a quick drag whenever they liked, but outside the room. <
Answer
Tricky one this. Given the general move towards restricting smoking, I guess that most smokers are getting used to this so perhaps there would not be a problem. On the other hand, those who smoke regularly (I only have the occasional cigar, usually when I'm out for a drink) may well see this a soff putting - especially if , like many of us, they normally go to open pub sessions where smoking is allowed. I noticed that a fair few of the instrumentalists smoke (most of Cara for example).
Smoking at the bar, or at the back of the room might be the best option - then at least smokers don't have to leave the room and non-smokers and singers can sit at the front with out too much discomfort.