BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:30 AM

Gosh can I have your autograph?

I've heard of Colin Irwin if that helps.

Of course, them as can do and those who can't teach. Reviewers and critics are often shocked to find how much they are dismissed as irrelevant so no wonder nobody had heard of you.

So,.. Now we know your knowledge of WW1 to be as second hand and subjective as anyone's, care to make a contribution to the debate in hand rather than tell us all how important you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:12 AM

"In June 2014 Paxman, speaking at the Chalke Valley History Festival about his new book, Britain's Great War, confirmed "what many had suspected about his political leanings", admitting he was a "one-nation Tory"


History credentials ................. none I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:08 AM

Glad to afford you a chuckle, nonetheless...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:06 AM

Guest of 24 Nov 0304 am ==

"Not to know me argues yourself unknown" (Paradise Lost) IV 830

Obviously during those 40 years you were not a reader of Folk Review whose regular tailpiece I wrote for 4 years as well as some hundred + reviews & features; nor of The Guardian, whose regional theatre critic and folk record reviewer I was for ¼C, late 60s-90s; nor of The Times Ed or The Times for which I reviewed folk records, festivals, concerts &c for about 20 years. You don't seem to have gone very deeply into the subject.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:49 AM

Final programme of the Paxman series, made in collaboration with the University of East Anglia History Faculty,

29 minutes in. Paxman to camera,
"Britain now had a tactically smarter, better organised army, capable of deploying men and machines to devastating effect"

He and the team clearly saying that the army was well led.

57 minutes in. Paxman to camera, "
Later generations would contend it had been a futile war. The war was terrible certainly, but hardly futile.
It stopped the German conquest of much of Europe, and perhaps even of villages like this.

Never before in the nation's History had a war required the commitment and the sacrifice of the whole population, and by and large, for 4 years, the British people kept faith with it."

He and the team clearly saying
1: That Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught;
2: That the British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that;

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:48 AM

Ah yes Teriblunder, the wonderful twenties and thirties for the average working Brit. Lack of investment in new techniques, depleted coal reserves, depression, decline, poverty, unemployment over 2,000,000 by the mid 20's, the great strike of 26 and the fantastic Wall Street crash of 29 leading into the depression of the 1930's.
Unemployment up to 2,500,000, crumbling industry due to lack of investment, the Jarrow Marches, more depression, the Means Test.

My God it makes you proud to be British.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:37 AM

Rag, But you are quite happy to believe the German population were.

I have said no such thing.

Jim, You have been given examples of what your own "historians" have said, stretcing back to last yers threads and you choose to ignore them

If that is true give an example. You can not deny the unequivocal quotes I have provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:54 AM

"Had Great Britain stood apart and ignored it's treaty obligations and decided than it was unimportant to look after the national interest then millions would have been out of work within 15 years."
The war wasn't sold on treaty obligations - one of the great catchalls that persuaded young men to sacrifice their lives for 'Poor little Belgium' complete with pictures of nuns being ravaged and bayoneted - a pretended humanity that was sadly missing when Conglese rubber workers were being massacred in their millions and having their hands chopped off.
It was a colonial war for territory and it never pretended to be anything else (until now) - still remember the three volume set of 'The Great Imperial War' on our school bookshelf as late as the early 1950s.
"A pretty naive view on things if applied to the British Empire"
Natives being incapable of ruling themselves without the British Empire - Jay-sus - that takes me back to my schooldays!!
A gentle reminder that Britain was the main instigator of slavery and the powers that be fought ***** hard to keep it in its place until it was replaced by a different kind of slavery of the type that slaughtered a million Irish people (just 60 years before W.W.1). as "God's punishment for indolence".
Colonialism was an appalling system of oppression and exploitation and is now recognised as such in the civilised world (even reactionary Ronnie Reagan used the term as one of abuse when he referred to The Soviet Union as 'The Evil Empire')
But it's great to be back in the mid-1950s for a short visit as a reminder of those arrogant and patronising good old days.
You pair really are stereotype anachronisms
Made my day, you really have!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:49 AM

Did I miss anything?

No. Still as daft as ever, this type of thread.

Hi Terribulus. Keep reading your newspapers. Clapton forbid you might learn something. Keith, Keith, Keith. Tell you what. If we give you double points for 24 hours, will that do? We can't have you not scoring points. zzz

Micha...

Nurse! He's out of bed again!






Eyup co Messiahs. What have I told you about playing with the Philistines?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:04 AM

Dear Michael Grover Myer

I've been going to folk clubs and festivals for nearly forty years but haven't heard of you, if it helps.

My point being that who you are is irrelevant. It's what you type that allows me to start my day with a chuckle.

If Keith A of Hertford and Teribus posted anonymously, it wouldn't be difficult to notice patterns but more importantly each post by them would invoke the same opinion from me and I suspect, most people.

Yet their egos think it is something to do with them not the shit they spread on the Mudcat field. Your pompous post seems to self elevate you up to their depths.

Yours sincerely,

Person who enjoys debate

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 01:07 AM

Much gratified by your appreciation, Recidivist; and very interested in your father's experiences. Thank you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Recidivist
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 12:29 AM

MGM Lion thinking just now I'd like to share one with you.

My Dad (orphaned at three (1920) was taken-in by a extended family of German Jews who his maternal aunt had married into. Long story short...in his 90's he candidly admitted being glad he wasn't raised by his own family (and honestly so am I (bunch of rough-necks).

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Recidivist
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:08 PM

Mr. M.G.M., I appreciated your story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:10 PM

Missing the point aren't you Jom. Had Great Britain stood apart and ignored it's treaty obligations and decided than it was unimportant to look after the national interest then millions would have been out of work within 15 years.

Empire purely a force for evil?? A pretty naive view on things if applied to the British Empire which when all said and done was established on trade not conquest. Was it all sweetness and light? A bed of roses? Did those who ruled get it perfectly right all the time? Of course they bloody well didn't and nobody is attempting even remotely of suggesting that. Suggest you read Naill Ferguson's Book "Empire" he puts it far better than I could. Now without Great Britain and her Empire Jom:

- The Slave trade would have continued and expanded without a stutter, it was the British and the Royal Navy that broke it.

- Piracy would have hampered and limited trade and acted as a brake on development throughout the world, it was the British and the Royal Navy that ended the scourge of piracy allowing merchant ships of all nations to trade and sail unhindered.

- Development throughout the world was rapid due to the British industrial revolution which provided wealth and employment

- British inventions and engineering made the world smaller and more accessible.

- Advances in medicine took on and greatly reduced, and in some cases eradicated, some of the worlds greatest killers

- Spread of Parliamentary democracy, rule of law and order, came as part and parcel of the British Empire

The list Carroll goes on and on. Ferguson also states that by the 1880s the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money and it would have disappeared anyway.

On two occasions Great Britain, her Commonwealth and her Empire came to the world's rescue and stood against would be tyrants, it cost her dear, but the costs of not acting were far higher. You ignore all that if you wish to, I won't and every time you trot out your idiotic, biased and bigoted beliefs I will pull you up on them. Those aired in this thread and in previous threads on WWI have been shown to consist of nothing but fairytales, whereas everything that has been stated by either myself, or Keith can be backed up by verifiable substantive evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:35 PM

Mr Lion or whatever your name is
...

My name is Michael Grosvenor Myer, as anyone who knows anything about the Folk Scene, or about Mudcat, knows.


try reading what they type instead prat...

Now, now; temper, temper! Just behave yourself on this decent forum, on which you are officiously intruding your unwanted and ill-informed presence, you vulgar little nonentity. If you are a Guest, then oblige us by conducting yourself with appropriate civility to your hosts, please; and refrain from telling them what, in your inaccurate opinion, may be permitted on their own forum.

Avaunt and quit my sight -- Macbeth

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:22 PM

Ay don't do anything 'commonly', if you don't maind, may dear Gee·Eff.

& if it's one of may ©'trademarks'©, then Ay'd better not ketch you traying to imitate it, hed Ay!

Wouldn't be may ☕ at all!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:35 PM

Sadly some silly buggers actually believe this.

Not just the UK, if that's any consolation. Plenty of butt-heads in the U.S. believe in nonsensical "American Exceptionalism".

Find myself rather oddly reacting, Jim, to your apparent obsessive hatred of your own country.

Well, EmGee, puts me in mind of the idiotic "America: Love It Or Leave It" jingoism. And you commonly react oddly- its one of your trademarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:02 PM

"Find myself rather oddly reacting, Jim, to your apparent obsessive hatred of your own country"
No I don't Mike - I hate what the politicians, bankers and big businessmen have done to my country.
The same goes for Ireland, where I now live.
The people I have spent my life with fill me with admiration and total respect - but the politicians - of all breeds - something else.
"what on earth could they have turned their hands to? Folk Music?"
Could have joined the army - saw that on a beer-mat in the Scottish Borders once - can't get a job - join the army.
Not sure what you're saying Popeye, me old shipmate - that the Empitre wasn't predatory - that they were an ungrateful lot for wanting out and biting the hand that fed them?
Gi'e us a break!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:50 PM

--Your obsessive urge to defend every shitty thing Britain has ever done makes you one strange individual.
Jim Carroll--
,..,
Find myself rather oddly reacting, Jim, to your apparent obsessive hatred of your own country. To hear you tell it, you appear to think that "shitty things" are all Britain has ever done. I appreciate that much of what you write is responding to other people's points, the exigencies of argument making you emphasise certain aspects to the detriment of the whole picture. But with all due respect, I find it peculiarly off-putting. Reminds me of Koko's Little List in The Mikado, which included

The idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,
All centuries but this, and every country but his own

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:41 PM

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give a tuppence for all of the rest







Sadly some silly buggers actually believe this.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:40 PM

Mudcat allows a person to be judged by what they type, not who they are. Please note Mr Lion or whatever your name is.

I like the idea that bullies such as Teribus and Keith A of Hertford have to either address what you put or ignore you. (Even if they address it, they ignore what you put anyway and waffle on with irrelevance and silly point scoring.)

So rather than scream that you don't know who is typing, try reading what they type instead prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:29 PM

Ah but Jom what would have happened to all those workers producing widgets for the Empire, houkin coal to power the factories and ships needed to carry those widgets to their markets and bring back raw materials to make even more improved widgets - all of them out of work Wolfie, what on earth could they have turned their hands to? Folk Music? They could have followed your example and wandered round the country cherry-picking unsubstantiated and unverifiable stories to suit their own bigoted views on any subject you like, so that at a later date they could bore the pants of everybody retelling the tale.

Conscription was introduced because it made sense and was simpler. The British people knew very well why they fighting, why Germany had to be defeated and they knew what they were fighting to preserve.

Germany had only been a country for just over 40 years and they most certainly were extremely "nationalistic", all aspects of the country's foreign policy were held in the hands of the Emperor and a militaristic autocracy that lusted after supreme power in Europe and the establishment of an empire overseas. Wellington at the Congress of Vienna predicted that rabid nationalism was extremely dangerous and would tear Europe apart - how right he was.

Now then Jom tell us again why if "your" witnesses" saw soldiers from their own units being summarily executed why those same witnesses chatting away into your tape recorded couldn't refer to any of the victims by name? You see my commonsense, reasoning and logic tells me that IF such a thing ever occurred and a person saw it it and every detail related to it would have been seared on their minds forever. But there again you didn't even check to see if the old boy telling you the story was ever even in the Army did you - some bloody researcher you are - totally useless. By the way Jom, what is it that you have against cooks, that compels you to regard them with such contempt that you use their job title as an insult? Not very egalitarian, liberal, or charitable of you my little "wannabe working class hero".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:50 PM

"Found any that contradict mine."
]You have been given examples of what your own "historians" have said, stretcing back to last yers threads and you choose to ignore them - your latest "lets not go there "historian" being typical
She talks about propaganda and peer pressure, the fear, the emotional blackmail - all historians that have gone public do so
She also points out the complex reasons for joining up[, as do many others.
The fact you choose to ignore itt and only take the bits that suit is basically what you do.
You did it with Kineally, who blew up in your face when it turned out that she was saying exactly the opposite, yet you still clung on as you probably will now.
Your obsessive urge to defend every shitty thing Britain has ever done makes you one strange individual.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM

"I do know that the British public were not deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict"

But you are quite happy to believe the German population were.

Is there no end to this man's ignorance? What ******* planet does he live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:42 PM

Found any quote that supports you view Jim?
No.
Found any that contradict mine.
No Jim.

The historians findings are quite unequivocal.
The myths you cling to are discredited, debunked and rubbished.
Sorry Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:25 PM

More cut-'n'pastes - no honest responses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:31 AM

Dave, you said, "I am sure that the German public did agree the need to invade."

How can you be sure?
I have no idea if they did or not.
IF they did, was it just the nationalistic fervour that they demonstrated again a few years later and which Remarque wrote about?

Were they lied to?
You tell us, because I do not know Dave.

I do know that the British public were not deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict.

Margaret Macmillan said, "Britain certainly thought it had legitimate reasons for going in, and I think it did,"


Pennell, "myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."

The University of East Anglia (Paxman programmes) say the same as does Sheffield, Todman and every other historian who has expressed an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:10 AM

You say there was Dave, but you do not tell us how you know.

I don't know, Keith, but certain news articles indicate that the war was enthusiastically accepted in Germany. I believe a young Adolph Hitler was at a rally in Munich celebrating the outbreak of war but I am, as ever, willing to defer to someone who knows for sure. You say you don't know either. Anyone out there who does know what German reaction was?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:58 AM

"After 18 months it collapsed? "
It did in Britain Cookie - I thought that's what we were talking about.
No idea what happened in those countries - what on earth has it to do with the opic on hand apart from it being another rat-hole to hide in.
IT COLLAPSED IN BRITAIN - OR IS THIS ANOTHER URBAN MYTH?
Banck to th pot and pan's I'm afraid Mr Woodencock.
The war was a defence of colonies - a family dispute over who got to milk the poorer nations, or in Belgium's case, who got to slaughter and hack pieces off them - may not b immoral to you Tebbitites, but pretty sick to the rest of us.
If the war was inevitable it was due to the predatory nature of colonialism - that it why a generation of British youth were sacrifed because they had been sent to slaughter the same genration of German youth who they did not know and had no quarrel with - pretty obscene, doncha think - my mistake, of course you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be putting up such efforts to tell us how noble it all was.
Can I smell burning bacon - sorry for distracting you fromk your work - back to your stove.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:46 AM

Dave and Rag, I do not even know how much support there was in Germany.
I have never looked into it.
You say there was Dave, but you do not tell us how you know.
And do you know how independent their press was?

I would never suggest that any population is more clever or stupid than any other.

My actual post,
"So IFthe German people supported it, they were duped, deluded or motivated by jingoistic nationalism."

Perhaps it was the latter.
Remarque's book "All Quiet On The Western Front" has the main character and his friends persuaded to enlist by the nationalistic, jingoistic fervour of their schoolmaster.
Remarque was writing of the common experience of Germans, and he would not have included anything unusual or atypical.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:35 AM

...just because you believe someone doesn't stop them being a pratt.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:34 AM

when on earth have you EVER given Keith A the "benefit of the doubt"

Always, Teribums. Evidenced in multiple threads and responses where I have said I have no reason to doubt him. I even believe stuff you tell me. Sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:25 AM

"I have always said that I do not know enough about WW1 to dispute or agree with any of the factual statements given. I have no idea what is accurate and, as always, give people the benefit of the doubt." - DtG.

Absolutely risible, Gnome - In your self-confessed ignorance of the subject under discussion, when on earth have you EVER given Keith A the "benefit of the doubt

Looks like Guest Observer is going to win his bet if indeed he/she placed it - But for the GUEST he was referring to (Most likely Musktwat) the above from the Gnome - Now that really is a HOWLER of the first magnitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:19 AM

"the fact that this noble cause was so important to the people, after 18 months it collapsed and enforced conscription was introduced - if the cause was so noble - why did that happen - explain that."

After 18 months it collapsed? Where Jom? In Australia, in Ireland, In Canada, in New Zealand, in South Africa, in Newfoundland, in India? Are you trying to tell me that nobody from those countries volunteered after March 1916? Are you trying to tell me that there were no volunteers from Great Britain after 1916? If so then you would be wrong. Every other combatant nation had started out with conscripted citizen armies, Britain and the British Government were told on day one that they too would have to raise one and that Jom old son was exactly what they did - however they did not have to rely in any way on conscription until the war was nearly half way through.

"You have studiously avoided the immorality of the war, of the near wiping out of almost an entire generation"

The immorality of the war?? What started out as a minor dispute between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia was manipulated and forced by German meddling and intransigence into the largest conflict the world had seen - Now then "Wolfie" I can see the immorality in that, especially as part and parcel of that German meddling was the goal of annexing Belgium and their colonies and robbing France of hers in order to then go on and attack the British. Tell me Jom, all those British workers beavering away and earning their daily crust producing and manufacturing all those widgets back then in 1914 before the war - where were they sold? Rhetorical question chump, they were sold to customers in the British Empire, her Dominions and her colonies. Now had the Germans managed to destroy the British Empire (As they tried to do by their support for the Boers in South Africa) who would all those workers in British factories be making stuff for? Or would they have found themselves out of work? And that "Wolfie" was a consequence that Niall Ferguson failed to grasp when he made his case for Great Britain staying out of what was known as the Great War.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:44 AM

"These can be seen in context by using the links I provided, and they are quite unequivocal."
Then explain here references to "fear" and "propaganda"
As I said, if people were persuaded it was a cause then i
it was a horrifically unjust cause - explain that
The Paxman programme spent a great deal of time on the recruiting methods used , the deception, the bullying the emotional blackmail that took place and the fact that this noble cause was so important to the people, after 18 months it collapsed and enforced conscription was introduced - if the cause was so noble - why did that happen - explain that.
You have studiously avoided the immorality of the war, of the near wiping out of almost an entire generation - is that so unimportant to you?- it obviously is - you "Christians" really curl me up.
In two years and over the space of half-a dozen thread you have refused to respond to any of these points and have clung to out-of context quotes by historians you have not read (but claim you have)
What kind of people are you - you certainly lack a shred of humanity?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:42 AM

You couldn't make it up could you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:37 AM

I have always said that I do not know enough about WW1 to dispute or agree with any of the factual statements given. I have no idea what is accurate and, as always, give people the benefit of the doubt. Why do you suggest that anyone has lost support that was never there in the first place? What I am sure of, but only by the postings on here, is that you are a pompous ass. In real life you may well be a nice bloke but until you stop pontificating and attempting to score points I will continue to ridicule you.

So if the German people supported it, they were duped, deluded or motivated by jingoistic nationalism.

Here we have a very significant statement. The British public were clever enough not be duped by propaganda. The German public were not. Nice to know that we are the intelligent ones while those nasty krauts are stupid. No wonder they lost the war...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:34 AM

Thanks, Raggy. Don't think I have ever had anything I had written so minutely and exhaustively deconstructed before. Out of interest, do you favour the approach of Jacques Derrida above that Ferdinand de Saussure? Or perhaps Luce Irigaray? Or Hillis Miller?

I think we should be told!

Still think that anon GUEST a monumental pain·in·the·ɷ at that.

≈M≈

And I do wish they would go back to banning anon posts just headed GUEST -- if only becoz one never knows if two posts are from the same copulatory-stinking-bloody GUEST or two different ones & it all gets so intolewably confusing for my paw-ickle-bwain...

Max! Joe! Anybody listening? Please!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:19 AM

Do you accept or reject the findings of the historians...

WHICH historians, Professor? The live ones or the dead ones? All historians of every nationality all over the world, or just the ones whose works are available in British "real bookshops"? The ones you have actually read (< zero) or the ones you quote by way of out-of context clips from the internet? & etc

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:18 AM

Rag, not what I am saying.
Jim,
it is out of context and incompete and had you read what she wrote in full,

These can be seen in context by using the links I provided, and they are quite unequivocal.

Pennell, "myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."

Margaret Macmillan said, "Britain certainly thought it had legitimate reasons for going in, and I think it did," she says. "

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 08:37 AM

The upshot of that last post must mean that you consider that the average German was much less intelligent than the average Britain.

If they were duped, deluded and motivated by jingoistic nationalism they can't have been well informed, erudite and educated.

Is this what you are saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 08:36 AM

"Thank you Dave. Jim and Rag, you have lost Dave's support on that."
Still not a point-winning game Keith - you make your point by producing alternative arguments, not by gaining support
"Yes, and it is unequivocal."
it is out of context and incompete and had you read what she wrote in full, as you dishonestly claim, you would be aware of that (as you probably are but 'all's fair in love (of one's establishment)and point scoring)
"If you think for one instant that they would have been better off under German domination - then you had best think again."
Ten million of them were never given the opportunity to find out - they certainl;y would have been better off under anybody - as would those who got their hands hacked off.
Still blustering without backup I see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 08:20 AM

Dave,
I am sure that the British public did agree the need to stand.

Thank you Dave. Jim and Rag, you have lost Dave's support on that.

I am sure that the German public did agree the need to invade. I an sure that they could not both be right.

I do know that both British and German historians are now clear that Germany was primarily responsible for the war and was the aggressor.
So if the German people supported it, they were duped, deluded or motivated by jingoistic nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 08:01 AM

Actually Michael you said you were 7 when the war started and finished that sentence with a full stop. You then said you came from a large family and again ended that sentence with a full stop. Then you said you were in London during the blitz of 1940.

As this topic is primarily about WW1 and the guest not knowing you it was not altogether beyond the bounds of possibility you were referring to WW1.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:33 AM

You can't count GUEST. My mention of 1940 made it quite clear which war I ref'd to -- WWii which started 3 Sep 1939. Which, my having been born on 12 May 1932, made me 7. And my present age 83.

Just bear in mind, would you, that nobody loves a smartarse.

And go away.

And in future have the goodness to acknowledge your fatuous posts with your name. Ashamed of it or something, are you? We Mudcatters despise pusillanimous anonymous soi-disant Guests who don't even have the manners to be civil to their hosts.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:08 AM

If you were seven when the war started, that makes you 108.

Well done.

We'll let you know when and if we get the usual suspects away from the "great" war and onto the war that had a consensus, other than Teribus's favourite newspaper, had to ge fought.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 06:27 AM

Coincidentally I came across this while browsing. It seemed very apt.

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag. Give the people contests they win by remembering the words to more popular songs or the names of state capitals or how much corn Iowa grew last year. Cram them full of noncombustible data, chock them so damned full of 'facts' they feel stuffed, but absolutely 'brilliant' with information. Then they'll feel they're thinking, they'll get a sense of motion without moving. And they'll be happy, because facts of that sort don't change."

― Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 06:22 AM

GUEST of posting Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:34 AM.

Reading through this thread you (presumably) have been asked before to give examples of these "Howlers" you refer to. You failed to do so when asked before, if I predict that you will refuse to provide any such examples in response to this request, what odds does the forum in general think I'd get from Ladbrookes that I'd be backing a winner?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 06:20 AM

... or a lampshade

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 06:16 AM

I remember it all. I was 7 when the war started, 13 when it ended; & perfectly conscious of what was going on. Coming from a large family [my mother was one of eight children, my father one of five] I had countless relations in the armed services. I was in London throughout the Blitz of 1940 & the flying bombs and rockets of 1944. I missed weeks of education when my school was destroyed by a 1940 landmine & the King & Queen came to inspect the damage. There was an unmistakeable spirit of public dedication and universal determination to resist invasion.

Just as well for me, at that: having been born to a Jewish family, I would never have become a senior schoolmaster, theatre critic, folk music journo, award-winning amateur actor, &c&c&c if invasion had occurred...

I would have become a bar of soap