BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:52 AM

Nobody objects to the Festival - here or elsewhere
They object to the act of remembrance being monopolised by the religious (who were very much a part of the butchery of W.W.1) and by politicians, who caused the slaughter in the first place - neither of whom, with their track records, have any right to exclude those of other religions or of none whatever, should they wish to.
There is enough religions trouble in the world today (see Paris) without being told by one particularly unsavoury example of the worst aspects of the Christian religion, who apparently possesses not a scrap of Christian values or humanity, that atheists are not fit to hold such a commemoration and any efforts they might make are fit only to be sneered at and "sold tickets to" - that really does inspire confidence in religion, doesn't it!!
God (whoever's) save us from such fanatics.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:17 PM

" Certainly not, but there is a little gang of them here who do have a problem. They find the existing Festival "objectionable."

Hmmmm Perhaps professor you could provide a link to any post where I have even suggested that I find the festival "objectionable"

If you can't I would expect you to keep your gratuitous little words to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:03 PM

GUEST Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:34 AM

I take it GUEST 05:34 that reading and comprehension of the English language is not your strong point then.

"The Festival" i.e the Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance AS TELEVISED.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 11:03 AM

i think you must be writing about a different akenaton than the one who regularly posts on here

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:51 AM

I have never met Akenaton, but we have become firm friends via pm.
He is a republican, left wing atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:39 AM

do you have a problem with leftwingers? atheists? republicans?

Certainly not, but there is a little gang of them here who do have a problem.
They find the existing Festival "objectionable."

I am sure that most, like you alchemvich, are much more tolerant.
Corbyn clearly is.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:27 AM

do you have a problem with leftwingers? atheists? republicans?

The Professor has a problem with anyone who doesn't agree with his drivel 100%.

Don't take it personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:27 AM

"do you have a problem with leftwingers? atheists? republicans?"

LOL !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:16 AM

happens all the time - remembering those who stood up against fascism in germany, in spain, in chile and nicaragua and many other places where imperialism and capitalism impose their soulless and brutal ideology against decent people anywhere. lee rigby was a tragic figure murdered by maniacs on the street, blair peach was murdered by the state - respect to them both.
do you have a problem with leftwingers? atheists? republicans? some of us are good people too, you know. i'm sure you wouldn't want to join fascists in striving for a world where all points of view aren't tolerated and respected.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 09:09 AM

Perhaps those here who find the existing Festival so objectionable will work to produce a more acceptable one.
The Republican Leftwing Atheists Festival Of Remembrance.

I would watch that.
I would pay to watch that.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM

keith, i reckon that anyone would 'bear arms in defence of their home'and it's a major reason why many people across the world are so angry about modern day imperialist adventures by the usa and their allies. of course, i would fight in defence of my home but i certainly would not fight for cheap oil, general haig, capitalism or just because 'we have to do something' about syria.
in my own occasionally engaged though always enraged way it feels like i have been fighting against thatcherism all my adult life but never felt the need to get physical about it.
it's a long time since any of us had to fight in defence of our home - we are lucky to live in the uk with our soldiers abroad. we should remember all the victims of war, everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:34 AM

" Oh and Raggy you are perfectly correct the Remembrance SERVICE is so that the entire nation can remember those who fell giving their lives for their country - The Remembrance SERVICE however happens at the Cenotaph on the Sunday AFTER the Saturday night broadcast of the Royal British Legion's Festival of Remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall"

So the festival of remembrance is only for people who have served, nothing to do with the remainder of the population. I'm surprised the BBC broadcast it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:05 AM

The clue is in the name Rag.
It is The Royal British Legion Festival Of Remembrance.
Others are invited, but it remains their Festival.

People who do not like it are free to do their own thing, but for some reason they don't.
I suppose you have to give a shit, and they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:03 AM

Well put Keith but as Raggy asked read this again Raggy (I've taken the trouble to put "The Festival" in context to help you)

"The order and format of the Festival [i.e. the televised programme] is planned and organised by those who do and they will not lose one wink of sleep should you never watch it again. Your opinions on the subject are meaningless and worthless the Festival [i.e. the televised programme] is for those who serve and have served their country"

Oh and Raggy you are perfectly correct the Remembrance SERVICE is so that the entire nation can remember those who fell giving their lives for their country - The Remembrance SERVICE however happens at the Cenotaph on the Sunday AFTER the Saturday night broadcast of the Royal British Legion's Festival of Remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall.

Clear enough for you Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:56 AM

So have I got this right Professor, Teribus says:

"the Festival is for those who serve and have served their country"

So the commemoration has got sweet FA to do with the population at large, it is only for people who have been in one of the forces.

Is that what you are saying.

I've discovered it's best to ask you as you do have a habit of moving goalposts don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:56 AM

In the spirit of something posted on another thread, I have made my point on here. I think that combining religion with remembrance is wrong. Others disagree. I have nothing further to add so I shall leave you to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:43 AM

Yes you have got it wrong.
The Royal British legion is an organisation of and for service people and veterans.
Their Festival commemorates all those who have lost their lives in conflicts, and commemorates them in the way that those service people and veterans want it.

They are not interested in the views of every tiny extremist minority who might want it done differently, especially those who have never and would never bear arms in defence of their home.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:39 AM

No, don't worry about Teribums aiming his nonsensical 'served your country' bollocks at me chaps. As I keep saying, opinions are allowed, no matter how stupid, and we are allowed to ridicule them.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:23 AM

You are obviously a busy man Teribus, you forgot to address my earlier query.

From Teribus: (hopefully he will note I'm using his correct pseudonym)

"the Festival is for those who serve and have served their country"

What a strange sentence. I thought the remembrance service was so that we, the people, could honour our fallen.

Have I got that wrong?

Any chance of an answer yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:01 AM

"I've never shamed my family with rifle and beret but have tried to serve my country well."

Really? I suppose we'll just have to take your word for it. Have you been successful in serving your country GUEST, or have you been more successful in serving yourself?

"But serving your country is a different kettle of fish to propping up desperate governments. Thatcher with Falklands, Major, Blair and Brown with Middle East and Cameron wearing two faces simultaneously and hoping nobody notices."

1: The Falklands - you would have thrown British subjects on the mercies of Galtieri's Junta without a second thought? In what way is that serving your country? How noble of you.

2: Major?? Ah you mean the response to Iraq's invasion and attempted annexation of Kuwait (Good heavens faithful servant of the British nation and the British people - you do seem awfully predisposed to rewarding military aggression by others at the expense of the innocent and at no cost to yourself - again how noble of you) By the bye the decision to eject Iraqi troops from Kuwait was I believe a UN decision. Then of course there was that stramash in the former Yugoslav Republic the involvement of NATO there was to prevent genocide wasn't it?

3: Blair and Brown?? Afghanistan? Our initial involvement there had something to do with our being part of NATO and honouring articles 5 & 6 of the NATO Charter, subsequently we were involved at the behest of the UN as part of UNAMA and ISAF. Iraq in 2003 had something to do with a ceasefire agreement signed by the Government of Iraq in March 1991 at a place called Safwan. As the Iraqis did not comply with the terms and conditions they had agreed to the ceasefire was deemed to have been broken leaving any of the combatant signatories free to resume hostilities until such time as compliance had been achieved.

4: Cameron?? Libya was a UN operation at the prompting of the Arab League, the GCC, France, Britain and the USA - so noble servant of the British people NOT Cameron's sole decision or idea. Syria? rather idiotically voted down in the House of Commons, had action been taken then, we would not have the disaster that we now have in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 03:21 AM

just in case some of us are a bit thick, Woodcock spells out his blinkered bigotry and misplaced patriotism.

Fascinating.

I've never shamed my family with rifle and beret but have tried to serve my country well. The military may be a good haven for grunts with nothing but brawn to offer and in recent years, the assertive social work they carry out in peacekeeping roles is sometimes commendable. But serving your country is a different kettle of fish to propping up desperate governments. Thatcher with Falklands, Major, Blair and Brown with Middle East and Cameron wearing two faces simultaneously and hoping nobody notices.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 02:43 AM

I think that you will find that at the Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance many of those you have mentioned are represented - but there again it would appear that those of you who stated quite clearly that "you watched the whole thing" must have been watching a completely different programme to the one I and millions of others watched, perhaps like most aspects of your lives you only see, read and listen to the things you want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:04 PM

"Your opinions on the subject are meaningless and worthless the Festival is for those who serve and have served their country - something you have never done."

Well, that takes the biscuit, does that. How do you know that Dave hasn't served his country? Is the only way to serve you country by lining yerself up to be shot at by foreigners because a bloody stupid politician told you to? God, you don't half come out with some stuff. What about nursesteachersdoctorsmidwivescareworkerscleanerscoppersfiremennurserynursespostmenambulancedriversparamedics? Sorry if I've left anyone out. Maybe you think the royals, only here because millions died to stop fascists from taking us over and cutting their heads off, or archbishops who pray for the dead without risking a hair on their sacred heads, or the heads of banks or big business who got where they were by fleecing the rest of us blind and "forgetting" to pay their taxes, have "served their country"? Huh??

And while we're at it, Mr Woodcock, would you care to tell us all where we can look up exactly what it was that YOU did to "serve our country"?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:12 PM

Teribus serves himself. The idea of selfless service is alien to his mindset.

Mind you, he does like being associated with those he couldn't begin to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:28 PM

From Teribus: (hopefully he will note I'm using his correct pseudonym)

"the Festival is for those who serve and have served their country"

What a strange sentence. I thought the remembrance service was so that we, the people, could honour our fallen.

Have I got that wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 12:21 PM

i don't like the suggestion that those of us who have never taken up arms have 'never served their country' many public servants and other carers, parents, publicans and priests have done many years of invaluable service for their communities. some of us do not feel the need to join gangs and are unwilling to go abroad to attack foreign people with whom we have absolutely no quarrel. before i get all sorts of criticism can i stress that i am not talking about (just) british people here - i mean all of us, in every country. people will keep signing up to follow the orders of evil or deranged leaders (or church or crown) and while they then probably do not expect to be treated as heroes for their criminal behaviour, remembrance these days does so and is increasingly an unsavoury, jingoistic 'celebration'
remember all the victims of war -these days far more likely to be women, children or aid workers than active combatants- and do what we can to stop any more fighting. and stop selling weapons -it's not rocket science!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 12:01 PM

Your opinions on the subject are meaningless Absolutely, Teriballs. Just as your opinions on most things are complete bollocks. You are welcome to ignore or ridicule my opinion to your hearts content and I shall continue to do the same with yours.

Glad we have reached consensus on this at long last :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 12:00 PM

Do you get medals for making cups of tea these days?

Excellent entertainment as ever. Keith calling rational people intolerant, which is another subject where kettles spring to kind and Terispunkbubble showing us how he trolls by gleaming personal details about people with which to try and bully them. He wouldn't like it if others brought up his own irrelevant to the thread silliness. Hey! Tell us all about Thatcherism and economics, two other subjects where you cause me to lose a little wee wee.

Whilst ever superstition is part and parcel of group shame and regret, it can never be inclusive of rational people or even people for whom Christianity is a false heresy in their mind.

Not exactly inclusive of a huge chunk of those dead in the name of petty ex empire eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 11:13 AM

Well there you have it my bald, name calling, diminutive, rotund one. Could not care a toss whether or not you care for the drumhead service that closes the Festival of Remembrance or not - you have no part in it or of it. The order and format of the Festival is planned and organised by those who do and they will not lose one wink of sleep should you never watch it again. Your opinions on the subject are meaningless and worthless the Festival is for those who serve and have served their country - something you have never done.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 08:02 AM

Indeed, Teribubbles, in your opinion. It is not the opinion of all though is it? I appreciate that many do enjoy it. There are also many who not enjoy it but tollerate it for the sake of others and there are those who do not welcome it at all, amongst all shades of opinion in between. We all know that not everyone will be satisfied and not linking something is not being intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:42 AM

But rather a nice way of rounding things off.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:38 AM

Teribus,

Thank you for that. A break from the proceedings I can see would be a welcome break. A nice cup of tea and a bun from the Vicar and his partner would no doubt be welcome.

However I don't think on this occasion that the religious element provided a break, it was part of the proceedings.


Nice try though.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:31 AM

I well remember my late friend Adam telling us of Sunday parades during national service in the RAF starting with call 'Fall out Jews, Roman Catholic and other Denominations'. Very inclusive of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:26 AM

Ask away Raggy, but the statement of Keith's - ""all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event" - from personal experience in Her Majesty's armed forces rings fairly true, the "religious" bit provided a bit of a welcome break in the ceremonial proceedings during training and afterwards the CofS Padre and his wife provided the best coffee, tea, cakes and biscuits going.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:24 AM

He is a politician who at some point will seek to be the leader of the country. What do you expect him to do, put two fingers up.

According to yourself, you are the epitome of popular opinion and no doubt would have been mightily upset had he done so.

Any EVIDENCE yet about the atheists welcoming the religious element of the service yet.

I'll not hold my breathe shall I.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:23 AM

No I do not, Keith. I believe he was attending because it is the right thing for a top flight politician to do. Whether he "welcomed a religious element" is the point in question.

Teribumble declaring that their opinions must be respected and taken at face value Look at the 'Listen Up' thread if you want to know my view on opinions. Anyone can declare their opinion and anyone can chose to ignore or ridicule it. Have you got anything to add to this thread or are you just reduced to sniping from the sidelines?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:05 AM

If Corbyn had not attended and joined in the singing what sort of outcry would we have had then?

You believe Corbyn was hiding his true beliefs and intentions to gain popularity?

What does that say about him, and about popular opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:04 AM

I'll ask again, even though I know you will avoid the question.

You stated "all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event"

Where is your evidence that the atheists among the veterans welcome a religious element, not your opinion, but your EVIDENCE.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:04 AM

Good heavens we have DtG & Raggy demanding that "Evidence" must be produced by someone posting to this thread, yet when they are asked to do the same they refuse point blank to do so, declaring that their opinions must be respected and taken at face value.

Also from further up the thread I'd love to know where Thompson got his figures from - they are way off by a "Kerry Mile".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:57 AM

Sandy is an atheist, but never mind my personal knowledge.

Firstly the RBL is an organisation of and for service people and veterans.
They organise the Festival as they like it.

Secondly, service people and veterans have a voice. If they do not like something you hear about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:43 AM

Your statement was " all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event"

Please provide evidence to support this claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:29 AM

So, is Sandy an atheist then? And if so does she represent ALL other atheists in welcoming the religious element? Seeing as you are so pedantic about the words other people use can you explain how you know that "Corbyn, and all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element" really do welcome it? If Corbyn had not attended and joined in the singing what sort of outcry would we have had then? No, sorry Keith, as you are fond of saying you should be able to back up your opinions and your opinion that all the other atheists welcomed it is demonstrably nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:53 AM

Religion has no part in these ceremonies - unless it is remembered that millions of men were sent to their deaths at the behest of priests who told them they were fightingg god's fight and they had god on their side (someone should write a song).
500.000 Sikhs and Muslims fought in W.W.1. and millions who died were atheists, yet they are excluded from this Christian/Politician backslapping exercise.
There is nothing whatever extreme in find this 'private club' attitude objectionable - and all the press has carried reports of objections to it over the last few years.
Yet the Christians doggedly hang onto it as theirs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:51 AM

Rag,
Have you any EVIDENCE that all the other atheists among the veterans welcomed the religious element? If so please share it with us.

Certainly Rag.
Firstly the RBL is an organisation of and for service people and veterans.
They organise the Festival as they like it.

Secondly, service people and veterans have a voice. If they do not like something you hear about it.

Thirdly I have personally known very many people who have volunteered to participate, so I have personal knowledge.
This year my friend Sandy of 151 Rgt RLC featured in several close ups. She was at the end of a row, quite short and wearing Corporal's chevrons, but her medals including Iraq were not visible.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:47 AM

I would not ban anything, Keith. But, if that is your opinion of what I would do I can only refer you to the 'Listen Up' thread and say that you are talking though your arse. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:42 AM

Yes, I find it objectionable yet still tolerate it.

You still tolerate it Dave?
Luckily you do not have the authority to ban it, but your comments about it here suggest you would if you could.
Your comments about it here have been intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:27 AM

Yes, I find it objectionable yet still tolerate it. That is what being tolerant means. If you only tolerate the things that you like it is hardly tolerant at all is it? If I was not going to tolerate it I would have said intolerable rather than objectionable. I have even been known to attend religious ceremonies myself and will happily join in the singing if I know the tune. But it is my choice to do so when the occasion demands. It was not my choice to have it in my living room on a Saturday evening so I will not watch it next year. If that is intolerant then anyone who switches the TV off or changes channels when something they do not like comes on is in the same league.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:55 AM

" That makes you less tolerant than Corbyn, and all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event and even participate actively in it by joining in the hymn singing"

Have you any EVIDENCE that all the other atheists among the veterans welcomed the religious element? If so please share it with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:02 AM

Dave, you have railed against it and said that you find it "objectionable" because of its religious content.

That makes you less tolerant than Corbyn, and all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event and even participate actively in it by joining in the hymn singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:47 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks Guest 13 Nov 15 - 03:30 AM. Either way I could only watch the evening performance on TV and will not be doing so again. If the afternoon performance is similar I shall not make any effort to attend that either.