How to handle criticism?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

Jim Lad is quite correct with the exeptions he noted. I would add to that list names like Mike Cross and Bruce Phillips. But, even the storytelling skills of these artists are tempered by their singing and by their segues. Besides, one would expect that their audiences are aware and prepared for stories. At an open mike, a lesser known performer is not so blessed. Also, unless I am mistaken, these performers tend to tell humerous stories in a highly entertaining way. Moose turd pie, anyone?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

"Except in academic venues, the stories had better be entertaining, relevant and short"

Care to tell that to Gordon Bok, Billy Connolly..... ?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:13 AM

Thank you all.

I always say I am going to tell a story, so there is no doubt about that. I always keep to a length that fits in with the programme (that is to say, no more than the length of two songs on a singaround night). I have never repeated my stories in the same club - always use new material. Mike, I hope to do some voluntary work with the elderly and I expect my sung material to play a significant part in that. I am a singer as well as a storyteller.

Having chatted to one club organiser last night he is very happy to see me perform at his club as he likes to see diversity at his club, and so he is happy to see spoken word alongside songs and music.

Interesting chatting to one performer who is not so happy with my stories though. Problem seems to be that this particular performer is not very imaginative - he rarely reads fiction apparently. So he has difficulty going into the worlds that I create. He is polite and friendly. I don't like all the performances that I see at a folk club - if most people enjoy a performance of mine then that is what I go with. I will chat this particular concern through with an experienced storyteller and see if they have any ideas on an approach. I had suspected that this might be the case but that doesn't make it any easier to resolve.

Got my copy of "Storylines" from the Society for Storytelling this morning. Some interesting articles including one that talks about storytelling in folk clubs. Worth another read...

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM

I know that I can't be the first to mention that audiences are more accepting of song than they are of the spoken word. We can listen to and sing the same song over and over but just try telling the same story twice or, God forbid, the same joke. I am not certain why that is but, as a singer, I am not ungrateful.
Storytellers, unless their audience is very young, must come up with new material every time. Except in academic venues, the stories had better be entertaining, relevant and short. The agents who book senior facilities sell me as a singer/storyteller, which, to these customers, means humor and nostagia. I have had some success weaving story into song, thus, avoiding that awkward moment when the story ends and the audience is unsure of the applause cue. This requires a little thought on the art of the segue but a little thought is all that is needed. Here is the segue I use for the romantic story of "Believe Me, If All Those Endearing Young Charms".

....He read the note and he cried. In reply, he wrote a poem and someone put the poem to music and it became a song, and someone taught us the song when we were in grade school. He said, "Believe me....

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Carol
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM

And this isn't aimed at anyone in particular but don't make it too long, that also applies to songs and especially tunes!!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

...............hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........interestin' stuff.


From long experience of folk clubs,sessions,sars,etc, story tellin'/poetry's gonna initially face probs.


* when you first start off prattlin', a lotta folks'll be expectin' songs to follow, so [IMO] - its MOST IMPORTANT to EMPHASISE that you're gonna be doing A STORY!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

Oops! That should have been "wider range" not "wiser" though it's an interesting typo...

AW - I WILL be tackling some more complex stories - they simply require more time to work them up to performance standard.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM

"Most people had not encountered a storyteller before." Some certainly hadn't. I think it's probably true to say that as I have been to events up and down the country over the last four years I've probably seen a much wiser range of storytellers than audiences and performers at local clubs and have a good idea as to what I should be aiming for. My interpretation of "The Talkative Tortoise" earlier this year was a pale thing compared to the superb interpretation of that story that I saw done by an Egyptian storyteller (she had the most amazing facial expressions), yet surely that shouldn't stop me from trying to work out my own version of a story.


Thank you AW.   It sounds like you have seen me - now I have to try and puzzle out who you are...

It takes time to develop from a beginner. Some stories that I tell work out better than others. Some will go into permanent repertoire, others won't. Hopefully my storytelling will go up another level when I implement the teaching that I had in masterclasses earlier this year. It's all slow, so I will just keep plodding away, and going to the further workshops that I have booked later this year. And yep, my critic has even scoffed at my going to workshops that I am investing in to try and improve.

Thank you all for your patience and comments. I will keep persevering. I have high standards for myself, so if I don't have a song or story that I am comfortable performing I sit and listen to the other performers. Tonight I will probably just listen.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

AW: You're just too nice to be the bully.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:10 PM

I just love cptsnapper's idea of asking them to tell the story themselves.

Better still would be to wait until your turn comes around then call him up on the stage and announce to everybody that HE is going to demonstrate how the story should be told.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:47 PM

No, Jim - not guilty. I don't think Northerner has ever asked for, or received, an opinion or comment from me. I have enjoyed many storytelling experiences over the years and have no intention of offending anyone by being unnecessarily negative, especially on an occasion where it's clear that the performer has put a lot of work into their piece and is quite anxious that it should be enjoyed. I just felt I should point out that not all the audience members in this setting were quite as narrow-minded, or oblivious, as the 'gentleman' in the first post.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM

So, you're not the one?
Sorry AW.
Cheers
Jim

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:50 PM

Sorry, Jim (and Northerner!) previous post was not meant to be critical. My only intention was to offer food for thought. If my guess as to 'Northerner's identity is correct then I am happy to confirm that her performances have most assuredly improved over last last year or so, and I have enjoyed the last couple of stories far more than the first few. But she did state earlier in the thread that 'most people had not encountered a storyteller before' and I feel that if this is not true, then she may be working harder than she needs to, (thinking she needs to explain the medium as well as tell the stories) and may also be inadvertently conveying the impression that storytelling is neither understood nor acceptable, which would be a shame.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:15 PM

Ah! Guest Aw: Not to try and spoil your fun here but if you read through this thread, I'm sure you'll agree that Northerner is most assuredly not seeking criticism.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to visit with some friends.
Kind Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:07 PM

If the two clubs that Northerner frequents are the ones I suspect, then they are two of the oldest and most respected clubs in this part of the world, so could I just make one small suggestion that may be helpful? It may be that you are underestimating the experience of your audience, and consequently not connecting with them quite as sucessfully as you would wish.

I did a quick count up of storytellers that I have encountered in the last few years (some exclusively tellers and some who incorporate some stories into their singing performances) at clubs, concerts and festivals. I got easily into the 'teens and there are several others that I can remember and not name. A few I enjoyed very much and a couple are good friends of mine. I have no reason to suspect I am the only member of these clubs who has experienced a variety of storytellers, nor would I dream of assuming it without proof. I wonder if knowing this might enable you to trust us to listen to a more complex tale in future?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: stallion
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM

It's a self esteem thing, I know a couple of people who think they are Gods gift to song writing, they have bags of confidence and self esteem, they are crap but seem totally impervious to any criticism, I have also witnessed a big name being sick in the toilet and muttering "I have to follow them", "them" were a local support act, this person, of course, was superb. So, place yourself in there somewhere between Rhino hide and tissue paper and go for it. Do it, do it.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Skivee
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM

As a performer the most important critic of your work should be you.
There must be a balance between the inner voices that tell you,
"Look at me, I'm a performing genius", and,"Look at me, I'm a talentless dunce who should have stayed home."
You should have a good idea of what a professional level performance is and be able to measure yourself against that standard. You may fall short, but it will give you a good idea of what to aim towards.
The helpful criticism of your peer performers can be very useful, as you are all struggling towards the same goal.
Helpful critique from your audience can also be a good guide In all of these cases the standard should not be whether the comments are negative, but whether they are true.
An old teacher of mine once gave me great advice I didn't appreciate till years later. "Just because you worked long and hard on something doesn't necessarily mean that it's good." On the other hand, this advice came from a man who had lost 4 spitfires in the channel during the battle of Britain...none of them in combat.
What I learned from this is to take my teachers advice about writing, but not about how to pilot a fighter plane. Consider the source of criticism along with their strengths and weaknesses.                     
Northerner, I must say that I'm quite fond of Jack Campin's idea of performing a story about a critic of all things. I think it's simply brilliant.
Of course, this assumes that the fellow's criticism is offbase.
If this fellow's purpose is to really help you, then heed his words. If he's just getting off chatting to hear himself AND his comments are wrong, then blow him off.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:44 AM

Hello Unbiased Listener. I wasn't present at the club's founding so I don't know firsthand who started it and how. If I am wrong I apologise. However that may be, the fact remains that the principal organiser of that club is very happy to encourage my storytelling at that club, and likewise the principal organiser of the other club that I go to. I am careful not to tell a story every week, or even every singaround. Sometimes I sing a song or sit out the session and listen to other performers.

Hello meself. No, I can't avoid him altogether but I can sit somewhere else in the club.

Thank you JeremyC. I really do think the person concerned believes he is being helpful, but has a really poor way of delivery. I was taught at a residential workshop that the correct way to give criticism was always to start with a positive comment first. Developing a thicker skin would possibly help me.

Thank you M Ted. I will keep a note of how any further criticism is delivered. I am also keeping a watchful eye on his own performances.

Thank you Young Buchan. Yes, the type of folk club that we have now may well have a lot to do with what this man has been saying (and other critics, most of whom have now accepted me). I had a period when I lived in the north of Scotland and one of our regular performers was a storyteller as well as a fabulous ballad singer. He is now mentoring me (though informally). Hearing stories at a club therefore feels totally natural to me. I like the way in which the Traveller storytellers move freely between stories, song and music and aim to do the same myself eventually. I believe the man who is criticising me belongs to the culture where stories are something for children only. I am careful not to tell stories that are too long (I never go beyond 10 minutes or the length of two songs). As my skills develop it will also become easier for me to create material that is more entertaining.

I am going to more workshops up in Scotland in the autumn, and am investigating some more residential workshops that will allow me to develop in a nurturing envrionment. Thank you all for your comments and advice.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:47 AM

"Tell a story, sing a sang, show's yer bum or oot ye gang".

Never seen anyone take option 3 in a folk club yet, thought.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

Northener, I think those correspondents are right who believe that your critic is less concerned with how you do what you do, and more with where you do it.
In the days before the revival, it was certainly the practice in social gatherings to take the attitude that what was going on was entertainment and there was no reason to confine entertainment to merely musical matters. Fred Jordan had a song in which at a similar entertainment a man says he can't sing but so as not to disappoint the company when it comes to his turn he is prepared to fight the best man in the room. I'm told that this is not entirely fanciful and happened occasionally in Suffolk. In comparison, wanting to tell a story seems quite mild.
In more modern times, of course, TV and other media have taken up the general entertainment needs of most people, and Folk Clubs were set up, in most cases, as a place in which to perform folksong/music rather than exactly reproduce the old general sessions.
This is not to say many clubs do not welcome, or failing that – accept, other 'turns'. I used to attend a club where occasionally, if we were short of singers, one of our non-singing members would do card tricks. Noone ever complained. But I think the crucial words here are 'occasionally' and 'when we were short of singers'. I doubt if we would have wanted it every week. And it was certainly not an invitation to the local Magic Circle to come and use us as an audience.
Likewise it occasionally happens at clubs I attend that someone who is usually a singer may choose on a particular occasion to tell a story or read a poem. Again, as an occasional variant, this goes down perfectly well. All Folk Clubs and all audiences are different. If I turn up at a Folk Club for the first time I am conservative. I sing a folksong. I don't perform The Green Eye of the Little Yellow God in BSL, or sing Agadoo to the tune of Mo Roisin Dhu, which are party tricks I have been known to perform in clubs that I attend more frequently. You need get to know your audience to be able to judge whether they will think a story is an entirely appropriate adjunct to a night celebrating the folk tradition, or a pain in the botty department.
Why should there be any hostility to a story teller?
The answer may be in why people go to the club. There are different types of folkie and in any club a different mindset may predominate.
Firstly there are those who go to sing (I'm sorely tempted to say 'to hear themselves sing'). They are only interested in how many times the MC can get round the room, because that determines how many times they will be allowed to sing. Deep in their hearts they really want all other singers to sing short songs, and all non-singers to pass. The last thing in the world they want is for someone to tell a long story.
Secondly there are those who go to learn by listening to others. Some may welcome the opportunity to broaden their horizons by being shown something entirely different. But many will think 'I'm a singer. There is nothing I can learn from someone who doesn't sing. How long before we get another singer on?'
Thirdly there are those who go to be entertained. They should be ripe for the picking – IF you are entertaining! Everyone has to learn. And everyone does badly when they learn. When a singer is learning and doing badly, the audience may hope he is suddenly struck down by lightning; but more realistically they know the torture will have a finite end which is approaching reasonably rapidly: unless they have decided to do a ballad in which case God help us all, and that is the reason beginners should beware of ballads. But with a storyteller – who knows when it is all going to end? I don't say that to be rude. I have heard some of the great Irish storytellers and part of the attraction is that they appear to ramble off forever only to suddenly and unexpectedly reconnect in the final line. But to get away with that you have to keep the audience enthralled all the way through. Few people who have been bored out of their skull for 15 minutes will then say at the end 'Oh, that was an interesting twist! I hope they do something like that again next week.'
Length of anything can be a killer. I mention ballads. I love the ballads, and would happily sing them all the time. But I know that is not what audiences want (unless you select your audience by announcing that it is a Ballad Session) and I select a variety of material accordingly.
[As a storyteller you probably know the story that Seamus Ennis used to tell of Henry Bohannon who when learning the pipes – rather badly – was approached by a Little Person who offered to help him learn to play, but with the condition that he could play only for his own satisfaction or that of others, but not both. He chose to play for his own satisfaction, and was delighted by how he played. But he continued to play in public and was always dismayed by how much he was criticised. One day the Little Person reappeared and offered him the chance, once and for all, to reverse his wish. He accepted, and became renowned as a great piper. But he was always himself dissatisfied by his performances. There are just so many lessons there for us all that I don't know where to start!]
I really think that if you are ever going to perform non-songs in a predominantly Song club, you need to build up the confidence of the audience that what you do will not be longer than your ability to sustain the interest. Even the best can make the mistake. I once saw the late Ernie Dyson (lovely man, did humourous dialect poems from Yorkshire) at a session where he did the opening verse of Macaulay's How Horatius Kept The Bridge. I looked forward to the amusing parody that it was bound to turn into. At the end of the second verse I was becoming a little impatient for him to get to the point. At the end of the third verse it suddenly struck my brain with an icepick that he was going to do all 70 verses. And 25 minutes later (exacerbated by the fact that he kept forgetting bits and going back to the previous couple of verses to 'get a run at it') that is what he had done.
I may have rambled on too much. I am a singer not a storyteller!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:49 AM

I envy those who feel they are above criticism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:17 AM

Probably the most extreme criticism that I've ever received was in the shape of a letter written to Folk Roots in which the writer commented on the variety of music which can be found & that as far as the writer was concerned it was fine if people wanted to listen to Chinese folk music as long as he didn't have to listen to me! So I immediately contacted the magazine to announce my planned album of Chinese folk music!

Of course you can always ask the person who's making the comments to recite one of the pieces which they've commented on so that you can see what they mean thus ensuring that they either put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:05 PM

Repeated criticism of this sort is harrassment. Pure and simple.

There is no point in subtlety, cuteness or anything circumspect. Simply stand straight, look him square in the eyes( really at the bridge of his nose, but you probably know that already), and tell him calmly but firmly that you have heard enough, and that he is to stop what he is doing immediately.

Don't argue, don't raise your voice, just lay it on the line, and walk away. And don't ever talk to him again.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

I'm with a few of the others in this thread with respect to criticism. From my limited experience, it's not polite to volunteer anything that isn't both positive and true, and if asked, the worst you should generally say is "you sounded good tonight." Anything further should be first, invited, and second, presented in the most positive, constructive fashion possible.

Most criticism I've personally received has been on youtube, in which case I delete it (if offensive/personally insulting), ignore it (if useless or irrelevant), respond sarcastically to it (if it's extraordinarily stupid and/or presumptuous), or keep it in mind for next time (if it's useful).

Criticism I receive in person, I generally acknowledge or thank the offerer, then act on the information as I need to. If it's excessive and/or dumb, the "smile and nod" approach, followed by an immediate purge from memory, is best.

Just my opinion.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

Is it not possible just to avoid this character altogether?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Unbiased listener
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM

Also, one night when you are not telling, maybe singing or sitting out, why not offer him some criticism of his singing - in a friendly, helpful manner of course. Something like 'why not rehearse your song so the words are fresh in your mind'?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Unbiased listener
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:21 AM

Unfortunately the club founder is absent at the moment recovering from heart surgery

He is certainly NOT the club founder.

The persons who founded that club are no longer welcomed there and were not even invited to the 40th anniversary celebration.

Short memories some people!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM

Thank you all. Wayne, if ever I'm near Leeds I'll pop into your club - thank you.

Last night I checked with the man who had been MCing that evening and he said he'd really enjoyed that particular story. It had been a story accompanied by paper tearing and I had made it audience participation - lots of people had had a go. Not a type of story that I do all the time but I think it's good to have a variety of styles.

I DID have quite a bit of criticism when I started as most people had not encountered a storyteller before, but I have gradually won over most of them. Beginner storytellers are not always easy to listen to, any more than beginner singers - beginner storytellers are often a bit slow and halting and not very fluent. However, I am past the beginner stage now. Repertoire is still a bit trial and error - you can't predict accurately what people will enjoy - but gradually you improve.

I don't think this person likes stories. I think that whatever I do he is going to find a fault with it. Even if he doesn't like a particular story there are plenty of positive things that he could approve of - I have excellent diction and tonal quality, for instance. Although I would like every person in an audience to enjoy my performances, I am happpy if the majority do. I don't enjoy all the performers that I hear at clubs, but if they have done their preparation work then I sit back and smile and clap politely. I'll listen to how this person phrases criticism more closely in future. If it is all negative with nothing positive then I will ask him to consider how he gives criticism. If all else fails I will have a quiet word with the club organisers. Unfortunately the club founder is absent at the moment recovering from heart surgery; he is very supportive of me and pleased to have a storyteller at the club.   I will sing at the next singaround probably but am starting to work on my next story.

Thank you all.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:07 PM

Judging by your moniker,Northerner you're from oop Nawth (Nowt gets past a welshman!). If you live in the vicinity of Leeds, why not pop down to the Abbey Inn, Newlay (in the river valley between Bramley and Horsforth) on a Tuesday. We've had one or two people come in to our singaround and give us a story or monologue. Even though it's usually quite busy, the teller has always been given good order and a hearty round of applause.

If you are local, pop down. You'll be given a warm welcome!

Diolch

Wayne

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:59 PM

Northerner, you seem very confident in your abilities both as a storyteller and a singer, so perhaps you could try another tack if this 'gentleman's' unsolicited criticism is disturbing you. Next time he says something after your spot, grab the people nearest and say 'Harry (or whoever) thinks I missed the mark tonight - did you like the story I told?'. If the answer is a resounding 'yes' then not only do you have the reassurance you're seeking, but it will also tell the gentleman in question that he holds a minority view that might be best kept to himself in future.

Of course, if you get a few 'er, um ..'s or polite pleasantries then it is possible that he is just voicing what other people are too nice to say out loud. But even that would be beneficial since I'm sure it might prompt a conversation that offered some more helpful ideas to work with.

My personal feelings are that in a folk club or festival concert setting stories that are of adult content (whether through sexual, political or occult content or by virtue of requiring a deal of imagination from the audience) are very enjoyable. The 'listen with mother' type of presentation which requires audience participation and the excessive drawing out of simple points can be a real turn off. But I'm sure you've already found out what your club likes.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Nick
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:53 PM

Jim Lad

I expect your point

Overcast but never downcast :)

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:24 PM

Handling criticism:

Criticism is not fragile and you cannot stamp it out by using too much force on it, so don't be timid.

Grasp the criticism firmly behind the nech, being sure not to let it sink its teeth under your skin, as this has been proven, with some varieties, to be extremely toxic, and in some instances causing heart failulre. As long as you proceed with the correct precautions, all will be well.

With a firm grip, place the criticism squarely on a flat surface, such as the floor or a table top. While still keeping it firmly pinned with one hand, use the other hand to draw over it an impenetrable sheet of plastic wrap, such as is sold in food stores for left-overs. Roll the criticism in the plastic wrap bringing the end over the head and sealing the head into the package just as you let go of it. This requires a certain deftness.

Once wrapped, you can place the criticism in a sturdier container, if you wish, or you can simply throw the package at the head of whoever provided it.

Many criticisms which seem to be robust and venomous, actually turn out to be fragile little projections on closer inspection. In this case a simple "pooof!" with a gust of breath will serve to make it vanish, if it is done with one eye on the actual source of the projection.

Hope this helps,


A

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

Nick: I take acception to your criticism!

Point well made.

Good morning all!
from the overcast Highlands.
Jim Lad

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Nick
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Having read a thread recently on mudcat where someone spent seven posts complaining about a spelling error (where the sense was understood by everyone) I think you'll find that there are people who give unwarranted and pointless criticism everywhere.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:35 PM

Or you can ask in as innocent a manner as possible, "Is there anything you liked about my performance?" He might get the hint. And you might get to watch him squirm.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Saro
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:31 PM

If you can learn how to handle negative feedback gracefully and skilfully it will stand you in very good stead in lots of circumstances. It sometimes helps to remind yourself that this is just information - nothing more - and that you and only you, have control over whether or not to take it on board and do anything about it. It is often easiest to say "Thanks, that's interesting, I'll give that some thought" or something which doesn't agree OR disagree with the critic. Then take the information away and decide later (in your own time) whether it is useful or not. That way you stay in control of the situation and are never seen as hostile, defensive or any of those equally negative things! Now, you can ignore this or use it - entirely up to you!!!
Best wishes
Saro

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:00 AM

Thank you all.

For the record I have had training in acting, music, singing and storytelling. With the storytelling I am now at advanced skills stage - learning how to inegrate music and songs into my stories to create a richer experience. I get onto telling my stories quite promptly in a performance, don't waffle, try not to go on too long and try to keep to the MC's timetable.

It is possible that this performer still sees me as a novice and doesn't realise that I have come on a lot. He hasn't seen all my performances by any means and there are a number that I have been very pleased with. Recently I have been asked to run a storytelling workshop by another storyteller (waiting for more on that one). I am a fairly quiet person between performances but really come alive when I perform. I am a sensitive and emotional singer, but as a storyteller I am enthusiastic and can be quite funny, in a natural sort of way.

It is genuinely possible that this person believes he is being helpful. In fact, I find what he is doing quite destructive, particularly as he knows next to nothing about storytelling. He DOES have experience as a singer but hey, I'm a singer too and a good one!

I will have to experiment with several tacks on this one. A fairly meaningless hmm, yes, thank you. Ignore him if possible. If pushed I will suggest he use positive remarks as well as negative. What he is doing basically isn't the act of someone who is professional in his performing.

I always, always reflect on a performance and what I can learn from it and move myself forward. If his comments have any merit then I will learn from them. However, his general negivity is something I could do without.

Thank you all for taking the time to make comments and give me helpful advice. I will reread this thread and take further note of them.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: stallion
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:53 AM

mmmmmm tough one, take them by the throat and tell them not to speak 'til their spoken to. Isn't that simple. thirty five years ago someone took me to one side and said there was nothing wrong with the voice but that I didn't have a "feeling" for the material. It took me years to understand that, years and years, and at the time I didn't appreciate a word of it, "who do you think you are" thought I. Anyway, be resilient and remember all of the criticism even if you don't think it is relevant 'cos one day it might be.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:02 AM

I played one of my small 2 reeder PAs once and got a guy tell me that he thought I wasn't too bad, except when I played just using the single reeds - apparently a piano accordion was designed to only be played using "all the stops out"...

:-)


:-P

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Unbiased listener
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:44 AM

The question most folks here are missing is :-

Is the criticism justified?

You only have the posters words to judge her ability.

She has been asked to provide the type of stories she tells but has not yet done so.

People on here are saying not to judge her harshly, but have judged, found guilty & insulted the critic.

There may be another side to the story

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

I have found that the time you can be taught something is just when you've pretty much worked it out for yourself.
WHen I was starting to call for our dance club and then starting to call for the general public, we had someone running the club who was very encouraging, and fed in advice, most of which I didn't appreciate at the time; I thought I knew better and could do a more ambitious programme than he was suggesting.
I tend to do it his way now, having found from experience that it works.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:26 PM

How do you handle criticism - if it is sincerely offered and from somebody you trust and respect, you thank him for his generosity. If it isn't and you don't - ignore it.
If I write a book I would expect it to be reviewed and criticised - if it wasn't it would worry me that it had been ignored.
I find it very odd that the traditional arts appear to have placed their exponents above criticism - are they all really that good?
Stand up in front of an audience and you are bound to inspire an opinion of what you do; personally I would sooner have them talk to me rather than whisper behind my back. An old saying about "heat' and "kitchen" springs to mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM

Unless you have identified yourself as a student or tyro, the gentleman's comments are way out of line. I have found it a good rule to never offer unsolicited critisism and, even when I am asked, to never offer critisism. My students expect it. That is what they pay me for. Everyone else, really, wants praise, no matter what they say. This is not to say that I pay no attention to audience reaction. They are my ultimate judge. If they don't like a number or a story or joke, I change it or drop it, altogether. But one, self appointed, expert does not affect me. He gets outvoted by the audience every time.
Once again, if you have been telling people that you are just learning your craft, stop doing that. Just tell your stories as best you can. If you are talented and relaxed, you will be well received.
Have I ever lied to you?

                            Mike

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Darowyn
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:53 PM

Some reasons why you might pay attention to your self appointed critic:-
-He announces himself,"I'm the producer of Radio 4's "Book at Bedtime"...
-He runs the country's top storytellers' club.
-He runs a talking book record company.
-He's a top storyteller or professional radio actor and is making genuine suggestions as to how the dramatic or humorous aspects of your technique could be improved.

Some reasons why you should roll up your eyes, mutter "Dear Me, they should not let them out.." and walk away shaking your head in a pitying fashion.
-He knows nothing about storytelling- except that he does not want to hear any.
-He has no credibility in any other field either.
-He is clearly only interested in entering into an ego race (sometimes called a p***ing competition)

The difference between a constructive critic and a low level verbal abuser is this. A critic can differentiate between "I don't like it" and "It's not good". I might not care for Opera, for example, but I don't think that Verdi is a bad composer.
A critic will offer advice on how to improve weaker areas, and will praise strengths to maintain motivation.
If your guy does neither, he is just using a veneer of politeness to give you abuse- and what respect can you have for someone who does that?
And if you don't respect the person- you have no need at all to take any notice of what they say.
The man is a wazzock- plain and simple- treat him accordingly.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM

Yes, as per Cmdr Crabbe, there is always something to learn from criticism. But it's not always about the subject of the criticism, be it your performance or your carpentry skills. Sometimes it's just something you learn about the critic.

In this case, being psychic, I get the distinct impression that it falls into the latter category. The guy just doesn't like storytelling, or (less likely) your particular storytelling. Critics who don't like the media they are criticizing need to find another job, because they have misunderstood what a "critic" is.

I have received a fair amount of useful criticism over the years, none of which I ever enjoyed at the time. In the long run, the useful stuff became apparent to me, and I'm sure you're going through this winnowing process too.

As for how to respond to the guy, I think you should be at least as direct as he is. Like, "That's interesting, but I think I'll keep doing it my way." Or, "That's not what my guru says." Worthwhile to point out that you are an intermediate-level teller, and you already HAVE a mentor. Don't smile and nod with him, he will take it as acceptance. And don't worry about hurting his feelings too much--by the way I don't think you should respond by criticizing his performance shortcomings, that just makes you look petty--he might go off in a huff, but that's not your problem. Seriously. It's not. You didn't ask him to come up and tear a strip off you, did you?   

W-O

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

There is always something to learn from criticism both positive and negative.

Even if it is that the critic is an assh--e.

CC

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:23 AM

Couple of questions, if you don't mind, Northerner.

What kind of stories are you telling? Funny? Anecdotes? Literary stories? Can you give us an example?

How long are they?

What are the man's specific criticisms?

What feedback do you get from other audience members?

Does he fancy you?

Apart from that.... how to deal with criticism - well, just keep working, don't let it get you down. Write it down and put it in a drawer, come back to it in six weeks and see if you think it was apposite at that stage; if so, see how you can take the advice; if not, put a light to it.

As for how to respond, I have a friend in her 80s who says her mother had a wonderful phrase when people gave her advice. "I must," she'd say with an air of great interest - without the slightest intention of taking the advice...

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:28 AM

Storytelling is, not only, appropriate in a folk club, it is routine.
I have never done a performance without stories. When I do senior facilities, my set includes the lovely "Believe Me, If All Those endearing Young Charms" precede by the tender story of how it was composed. (Look it up. You'll love it).
When I do a Jewish venue, I mix in stories about Chassidim and a few Chelm tales, of course. My agents sell me as a singer and storyteller.
When I play a folk club or folk concert, I tell the same stories and add a couple from South Philly. What I don't do is announce, "I am about to tell a story." I know how "sophisticated" and jaded a folk audience can be, so I just kind of sneak up on them and, before they know it, they have been enjoying a story.
The thing is, a performance lives or dies on its own merits. A good performance is always welcome, no matter what the form.

                  Mike Miller

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Sandy Andina
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:58 AM

I first consider the source and then the context. If it comes from someone I respect (and whose opinion I've solicited), I listen--and ask myself if the criticism in question is similar to what I've heard from others. If so (or it mirrors something I might even have suspected) I look to whether it involves an area I know I can improve. The first time anyone ever criticized my voice, I wouldn't set foot on a stage for two weeks afterward, and it took a friend to call me up, give me a pep talk and literally drag me back to an open mic. That was 25 years ago. Next time, it was a record reviewer who astutely observed that what I'd recorded did not match the way he'd seen me perform--and suggested that I never again record on anyone's timetable but my own. I am indebted to him for that advice. Another reviewer was scathing--but it was my fault for not vetting the publication in question; had I done so I'd have realized the genre, renown and commercial success of their typical reviewed artist and never have submitted my work for review. Nonetheless, I then wrote a proudly assertive song (that *I* knew was a cathartic "F-you" but doesn't come off that way--have yet to record it). And FIVE years after I submitted to another publication, it gave me a lukewarm review--and when I contacted the reviewer (who'd apologized for his backlog), he was flabbergasted when I agreed with most of his assessment, since I have grown exponentially as both a performer and writer since then (whether I have acquired greater humility is another question entirely).

When criticism comes at a song circle, I also listen to who's doing the criticizing, who else he's criticizing, and whether he's slamming everyone else for the same thing. But I have learned never to be "married" to a song, not even after I've recorded and released it--a song is a work I have created, not my child I have borne; and if there is a way I can tweak it and make it more effective (shorter, different choice of word, melodic or chord change), I am all ears. More often than not, truly constructive criticism has turned a good song into a great one: and I've seen it in audience reactions before and after the change. There will also always be people who feel compelled to critique simply to demonstrate they are paying attention; there will be others (usually contrarians) who feel that bucking a trend or dissing something popular marks them as people of superior discernment. Bleep them and the cockroaches they rode in on. The trick is to develop the experience to tell the difference between those who want to help and those who want to build themselves up by tearing down others.

I have grown thicker skin even as I have grown thicker calluses on my picking fingers....but I still remain open to ways I can improve.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:12 PM

Having reread Northerner's first post - it is clear that the critic is suffering from an excess of ego. You have to learn to deal with this (other people's excess of ego - also called jealousy) if you want to survive as a performer. Your "master storyteller" teacher/coach should be able to help you with this.