folk song art song

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:44 AM

dont misundertsatnd me jim,none of this is a criticism of you as a performer

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:57 AM

Jim...Martin Carthy has lasted longer than you and i in folk clubs. Martin Carthy has folk involvement perhaps you should listen to the clip before pre judging
since when has been playing in a public bar been the only criteria of good perfomance or perfomance of folk music.
i might remind you that before folk music was played in public bars in ireland it was played in rambling houses.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:45 AM

Dick, I'm well aware we have different approaches to the same music-nowt wrong with that...

I have no time for Zooom/online folk- it seems a contradiction in terms to me! Martin Carthy is a lovely bloke and a well informed singer- not to my taste which is my opinion.
However, you know very well that his live performances certainly include humour, whereas you say the online one did not? A natural reaction to there being no FOLK involvment, ie singing at a camera!   for me, QED

Such singers as you mention would not last a minute in a public bar, never mind a folk club, so let the market decide that- never thought I'd ever find myself quoting Maggie Thatcher!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:42 AM

I am wrong , i have seen the light and the error of my ways it is ok to perfom folk music or tradtional music badly but not art music. we must all have fun at everyone elses expense play out of tune. that mreans folk music is inferior to other genres of music ok.
next time i go to the opera or to a classical music concert i shall insist on asking for my money back unless they perfomm out of tune out of time, i will say but it was not fun, i want my money back the opera singer was not a stand up comedian ,he did not make me laugh, he tried to perform well he had been practising the lead violinist did not play enough bum notes, she did not do a belly dance

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

I practise because to me it is not practising but enjoyment of playing because i want to try to do a good job, and i am happy with the sound i produce[ some of the t .
Jiggers , would you turn up at a classical music perfomance, pay money or[ if free] expect the whole orchestra to be out of tune and out of time, would you turn up at a folk concert and expect a folk perfomer lets say peggy seeger or leon rosselson or show of hands to play out of time with each other and be out of tune all night? no you would not.
your friend might get enjoyment but there are undoubtedly people who stay away because of her and she annoys people with her pig horn, so is she more important than other people?
i remember a bombard player in the north east of the uk who emptied rooms quicker than greased lightning with his bombard and hurdy gurdy that was badly played,
are you a masochist do you enjoy musical and intellectual flagellation, if that is your idea of fun, enjoy it, but do not inflict it on other people without asking .

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM

My friend cannot play tin whistle properly, sings badly most of the time, annoys people with her pibgorn at sessions, and loves every minute of it. It provides her with a chance to perform, a social network - she gets out of the house for an evening.

she brings more than her 'music' to sessions because she has a passion for the history of music, and for instruments.

Given that she has had a mini-stroke some years back, it is a relief that she can still ruin a good tune.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:09 AM

nothing wrong with your approach Jim, but there are many ways of presenting a perfomance, i have just been listening to an online Martin Carthy concert, no humour , but still excellent, excellent guitar playing excellent presentation, excellent communication and intersting story songs.
singing for fun is very much why i do it Jim, i chose this genre rather than pop music, not for one minute thinking i would do it to make money but because it was FUN. AND I ENJOYED THE MUSIC
FUN is also about striving to perform as well as you can that is part of communication
FUN is not about turning up with a guitar that is out of tune and NOT bothering to tune it, OR RUMMAGING THROUGH A FOLDER OF BITS OF PAPER,singing out of tune playing an out of tune guitar.
you are a good perfomer Jim, but would you enjoy playing your box if it was out of tune or if there were a couple of notes that did not sound when you pressed them or if you [for health reasons] could no longer sing in tune.
bad perfomances are not fun for anyone unless you are masochists

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:56 AM

Thank you jiggers, yes it appears singing for fun is no more.

I used to teach English literature in another life & needed to read & analyse excellent books like 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Goodbye To All That'- - at that time, this was aimed at exams of course, and found little time or inclination to read much else.
Having left teaching - 43 years ago now, I re-read many of the same books without the pressure- reading had ceased to be a chore, and became very enjoyable.
Mudcat is great for folk who wish to discuss & argue about traditional music, but it doesn't seem like much fun?

It's quite valid to discuss voice exercises, ballad-sheet origins etc, but I'd argue that in a live context, open-mindedness and a bias towards humour are essential in communicating with the FOLK, which is surely the aim of the music?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:12 AM

good technique as regards singing is about breath control,singing from the diaphragm, clear diction.
technique and style are different things entirely

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:09 AM

Iwill amend my previous post, it is sometimes arrogance and sometimes ignorance and sometimes both, that a musician thinks ITM bowing styles are exactly the same as classical music they are not, neither are tradtional singing styles the same as operatic styles or jazz styles, good technique however is useful in all music but good technique is not about over the top vibrato , rolling of rs, these are styles

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 03:59 AM

people do sing for fun, some get fun out of advancing their skills, few get fun out of performing badly or singing out of tune.
ITM fiddle playing is an example where classical musicians frequently do not get the styles, many of them think the music should be played as written from the page, they do not understand the totally different bowing styleS from classical music, they have good tecHnique but actually need to spend a little time listening to the different approach. and different styles
IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN AND WATCH THE DIFFERENT BOWING TECHNIQUES that is an example of their arrogance
it is a very good example of the difference between art music and folk music or classical music and ITM.
Keboeroxu , i enjoy classical music too, that is not the point at all, their is nothing wrong with having good technique ,technique is only there to help the performer do what he wants to do.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 09:32 PM

My first encounter with the Gaelic sean-nos about
the three Marys at the foot of the cross on Calvary,
was a recording with voice and piano, featuring
a young Maire ni Scolai,
using fully operatic classical singing technique.

My second encounter with this same song
was a recording of Joe Heaney.

I would not do without either one of them.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 07:02 PM

Can ppl not just sing for fun anymore ?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:39 PM

FWIW, Pierre Boulez and Michael Tippett (neither of them what you'd think of as emissaries of folk culture) co-signed a letter protesting the British Government's attempt at the same kind of control freakery. I think they got results.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:19 PM

Been enjoying some lieder and art song during the Song Prize Final of Cardiff Singer of the World (BBC4) tonight. E.g., a Welsh lady singing a trad Welsh song, with embellished melody from the pianist.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

That's a good story re Vincent Strunks and "Hudi McMenamin" (it's a local joke about how Menuhin was introduced at a traditional music session). I've met some children at Comhaltas (C.C.E.) and other trad. music classes in Derry who also have classical music lessons at school, so I think the campaign to change attitudes and policies has been successful. Most of the children attending the classes are not going to enter compettions; they are encouraged to play in informatl sessions organised by the course organisers.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:50 PM

Sir, - Another connection between the late lamented Yehudi Menuhin and music-making in this country was recalled to me recently and may also be of interest to your readers. The occasion was a request to him by Mr Vincent Strunks, an organiser of classes in traditional music in Derry, for a comment on the practice of some tutors in the Western Education and Library Board's schools music service, with the tacit support of the then director, of actively discouraging children learning music in school from also attending traditional music classes.

The comment was swift in coming, strong and to the point: "I find it unbelievable and totally unacceptable and typically bureaucratic that any child should be prohibited from following both traditional and classical teaching together. The parents are absolutely right, if they are compelled in this way to make a choice, to stay with traditional music. Traditional music is the basis of all music, and a child must begin with that.

"When I think of the incredibly rich, beautiful and heart-warming traditional music of Ireland, this attitude is enough to enrage any real music lover, but then any teacher who forces a child in this manner is probably in any case not a good music teacher, thus a double reason for the young girl to stay with traditional music. - Yours sincerely, Yehudi Menuhin."

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:22 PM

you are of course entitled to your opinion.
I am very calm, but may i return your statement...maybe calm down a bit.
i am not insisting on anything, i pointed out that if i were to sing opera in a non operatic style, opera lovers would not like it, it is quite reasonable then to ask classical singers to listen to tradtional, styles and sing it in a way that is connected to its roots, that is not insisting but asking.
the same applies to yehudi menhuin , a very good classical trained violin player whose attempts to play irish trad music were musically imappropriate, however yehudi was humble enough to acknowledge his limtations when it came to playing a different genre, and to acknowledge that however good he was at his genre, he was out of his depth when it came to playing irish trad tunes.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:38 PM

I am gobsmacked at the apparent vendetta on Peter Pears, and to a lesser extent, Benjamin Britten: if you don't like it, Sandman, you don't have to listen to it! PP has been dead for 35 years and BB 10 years longer. They used to fill concert halls with people who liked their music! Having been brought up in Suffolk, where they lived, we did get to sing and play some of their music, including taking part in the Aldeburgh Festival: inspiring! To be fair, I didn't like BB's music on first hearing, but it grew on me: it wasn't the easiest to sing.
PP had a very wide repertoire, of which folksong was only a very small part. I hate the term "murdering" songs: he just did them his way: again I say, switch off if you don't like it! I seriously don't think it does any harm at all to the traditional genre or way of singing such songs, which WILL survive as there are plenty of people who prefer their songs sung that way. Some of the best folk songs have been thoroughly messed up by so-called folk singers who chop up the words with funky rhythms: (not talking about Nick Dow here, if he hasn't yet left the thread!)
I have lived in Scotland, the country of my birth, for the last 35 years, and to some extent, we see the same phenomenon around Burns' songs: some people insisting they must be sung in a folkie style - others who sing them operatically. Does anyone know what they actually sounded like when they were first sung in the 18th century? It's before any recordings. Again, horses for courses, it's all valid, and a matter of personal taste which way you prefer them.
And Sandman, if you've already had one TIA, maybe calm down a bit, to avert any chance of another?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:28 AM

hymnody, the only influence... i see is the copper family ,and they were exceptions, most, the vast majority of tradtional singers were unaccompanied solo.
glee singing was popular in victorian times and songs like thousands or more, originate from them probably. Folk song collectors apart from alfred wiliams did not consider glee songs, folk songs.
so folk songs   aka TRAD SONGS, as we consider them today are the result of the agenda of collectors like Sharp and Baring Gould

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:12 AM

what are those ideas,Jack?did you mean this
‘the most widespread and influential form of literary and musical expression of the day’ (2017: 1).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 01:54 AM

Thanks. Interesting ideas and more significant than some folkies would like to think.

Next elephant in the room: hymnody, which had more impact on both art music and traditional music than most people involved in either generally recognize.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 05:54 PM

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-romantic-national-song-network-tickets-146804749959

The Romantic National Song Network Mon, 28 June 2021 18:00 – 19:00 BST

The Romantic National Song Network, funded by the Royal Society of Edinburgh, ran between 2017 and 2019. Bringing together scholars working in literature and language, musicology, history, book history, and performance history, it aimed to establish what songs were published and performed in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales during the period 1750 to 1850, and to explore how they shaped public perceptions of the different national cultures of the British Isles.

The project ultimately created an interactive website featuring a number of key song-stories and brought together a group of young singers from across the UK in a final project performance. This presentation by Professor Kirsteen McCue will talk through the formation of the network; showcasing its findings and reflecting on how projects like this can breathe life into historical song repertoire.

Speaker: Professor Kirsteen McCue (University of Glasgow)

Kirsteen McCue is Professor of Scottish Literature and Song Culture and Co -Director of the Centre for Robert Burns Studies at the University of Glasgow. She has published widely on Romantic song culture relating to work by Byron, Clare and Scott and on Burns’s songs and musical responses to Burns’s work. She is editor of James Hogg’s Songs by the Ettrick Shepherd and Hogg’s Contributions to Musical Collections and Miscellaneous Songs for the Collected Works of James Hogg (Edinburgh University Press, 2014) and her edition of Robert Burns's Songs for George Thomson, vol 4 of the new Oxford Works of Robert Burns, was published in February 2021.

The Romantic National Song Network: https://rnsn.glasgow.ac.uk/

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 10:34 AM

After reading this thread, I think I will give up singing, it is far to fraught. There is no chance I will attend any performances in case they are incorrect. If I catch any of my friends singing then I will cut them off.

Thanks to this thread, it has put me on the right path and it has saved me from the toxic effects of singing forever. Free at last.

My final act will be to make sure that pesky Natural Voice Practictioners network is shut-down. Who do they think they are, wearing casual clothing and singing for fun while providing a social support network. It makes me sick.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 05:56 AM

The folk & traditional singers & musicians I repect don't give a monkey's about 'genre' and suchlike pigeonholes--they just get on with it and leave the history, sources and cross-references to the academics, and that's as it should be.
We've covered this ground before, I know I'm iin a minority, but to me a song is a song & if it appeals to me, I'll sing it- simple maybe but I stand by it.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 04:22 AM

Art song is a genre. It includes works by Monteverdi, Dowland, Purcell, Haydn, Schubert, Wolf, Schoenberg, Messiaen, Tippett, Kurtag... it's not defined by any technical feature but by being part of that tradition.

I might be more inclined to think someone had something to say about it if they could spell composers' names right and drop the bigoted crud about performers' dress code.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM

What does the term 'art song' even mean. Art is not constrained. A song is a song. Reproduction of historical styles has some interest, but why study past songs when you can just sing and make up your own songs to your own styles and rhythmns.

Today I sang to my neighbours cat as it shaded in my garden, it is so frightened of hands because it gets mishandled by the children in the house in which it lodges. So I cannot even pet it without it having an anxiety attack.

I tried to soothe it with a quiet song that went along the lines of ," sorry cat, you're safe here, you are welcome and I will not mistreat you" The tune was whatever it happened to be at the time, it is not written down, archived, reproducable - it was just as it was then. Lost and gone forever.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:42 PM

Nick Dow, is a very good singer of traditional songs and a very good guitarist, some while ago I bought one of his books which was very informative

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Planetluvver
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

Reply to The Sandman,

I wasn't responding to your post. (Is there a way to reply to particular posts in this forum? It seems to me things are just ordered chronologically.) I was just working through my own views on folk versus art song. My thoughts tend to be rather chaotic, hence perhaps also my post.

My discussion of opera was to support that it isn't just that I am adverse to formality. It is DESPITE my appreciation of opera, I found the Vaughn Williams song incongruous and preposterous to he point that I was so preoccupied that I couldn't actually listen, DESPITE my familiarity of opera. (Besides, my understanding is that it was actually an art song, not a folk song, so I cannot criticize it on the basis of being divorced from its tradition.)

I do often want to know the background of a song. I cannot say that I find it a requirement to my enjoyment of a song. (In fact, I am distressed at my newly acquired knowledge regarding the origins of Danny Boy and other familiar "Irish" songs.) I also am interested in music I am unfamiliar with to broaden my knowledge.

In conclusion, I would suppose ALL music has roots in the vernacular. My theory (with absolutely no background to support it) is that music preceded language and functioned as a social "glue." When we started pounding on logs rather than one another's heads, we could develop cooperation and culture.

And once again, I find myself trying to order the jumble of thoughts that coexist in my chaotic mind. High time I accomplished something useful!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 02:00 PM

A peculiar way of offering support and encourageent
So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat? quote, Nick Dow .

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:38 PM

I was actually trying to be supportive, and encouraging Dick. I was attempting to suggest something that you might seriously consider, and that you might have the ability to achieve. Not be condescending or patronising. Your diatribe was well out of order. That's your lot with me I'm afraid, permanently.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM

So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat? quote, Nick Dow .
if you were to say this to my face, I could not guarantee your future as Trapeze Artist

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 11:02 AM

I   hope to keep on singing and playing music, and hopefully organising a festival., those are my only intentions,I have recntly recovered from a TIA.
I consider it impertinent patronising and condescending to suggest to anyone else that they should do anything other, than what they have proven to be reasonably competent at.
perhaps you should become a trapeze artist.
I do not consider myself anything but a member of this forum who wishes to discuss aspects of folk music on this forum.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:15 AM

Sorry, I'm back very briefly. I really think the decay in respect for Traditional song and dance in the UK is a worthwhile subject for a book. The subject of this thread would be the part of one chapter. It's a dragon of a subject, but I think a new perspective is overdue. I would not attempt it for the foreseeable. Go on on Dick, seriously! Sharpen your pencil. It would be a more academic update on Fred Woods 'Folk Revival' book. Blandford ISBN 0 7137 0993 6

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:58 AM

So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat?
If you feel so strongly, why do you not expand the argument to a wider audience? Write a book and get it published. If I can do it (three times) I'm sure you can. Get yourself on the Radio. One of my documentaries were the way I joined the BBC (God help me!). If that fails start your own podcast. If you believe so passionately then spread the word. I will be first in the queue to listen or read, and I dare say there will be many others as well.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

putting clips on here as i have done,of styles unrelated t0 peter pears, but connected to the roots of uk and irish trad music is imo important so that more people become aware of the stylistic roots.
that is being positive.
it has become evident to me that the uk folk revival is getting further from its roots,, it is also important to me that practising material to try and do it justice is important, no one is falling off stepladders,
   folk culture may continue but when it starts to bear little relation to its stylistic roots, is it still folk culture?, in peter pears case it is art music not folk culture.
to hear what you have collected being murdered by singers who either have no idea of style or have not practised, would that be acceptable in classical music. NO it would not, so why is it accptable for folk music, does not folk music deserve the same respect as classical music?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 02:31 AM

Nor are Harry Cox or Pop Maynard. Since the BBC have recently produced a programme with a young operatic singer posing the questions, I would say it's a fairly current phenomenon. Just not actually all that important to the continuation (or not) of Folk culture in the UK, and not worth falling off a stepladder in despair.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 08:31 PM

This is rather like the guy who was so shocked by his neighbour appearing naked at her window that he fell off the stepladder and broke his binoculars.

Classical-style folksong treatments are a thing of the past. They served a purpose, of freeing up a space for other takes on traditional material, but if you want to hear Peter Pears, Fyodor Shalyapin, Kathleen Ferrier, Peter Dawson, John McCormack or the like, you have to put in some effort to find them. They're not on the PA at the supermarket.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 11:11 AM

I hate it when folk songs are sung in a formal style. Unfortunately the formal style can also actually be the folk style e.g. at Welsh esteidfodds, songs are judged by their adherence to specific traditional form This is almost as naueseous as the opera style.

Songs should be sung for enjoyment primarily, and as naturally as possible. There should be no such thing as competitive singing or competitive playing or competitive dancing. Unfortunately there is.

There is no need to listen to folk music being murdered when there is so much interesting material around. Just do not listen to the stuff you dont like.

Let people do what they want and listen to what they want. I challenge anyone to sing I'll Tell Me Ma in an operatic fashion anyway, or The Rattling Bog, hee hee

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:35 AM

planet luvver i am glad you enjoy opera, but that is not my point.99per cent opera lovers would not enjoy it if i turned up and did opera in rock and roll style or folk style,or jazz style

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Planetluvver
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

I attended a student recital which included Vaughn Williams The Roadside Fire. (Perhaps the entire song cycle was sung, I don't recall) The singer looked extremely uncomfortable and formal in his suit, starched white shirt and tie. I just could not believe he was going to convince his love to go tramping through the woods by singing about getting rained on and doing laundry.

The notion just seemed preposterous in that setting. The singer's formal appearance was so incongruous with the songs subject. I had the impression he was somewhat insane.

I offended the person I accompanied by stating my opinion. The subject just didn't seem in keeping with the formality of the venue. To be honest, I have not had a lot of exposure to "Art Songs."


I have listened to quite a bit of opera, but most of it has been in English, and what has been in English, I have still needed subtitles to understand. And often, the portrayals are of insanity, so yeah, opera works for me.

Lyrics:

I will make you brooches and toys for your delight
Of bird-song at morning and star-shine at night,
I will make a palace fit for you and me
Of green days in forests, and blue days at sea.

I will make my kitchen, and you shall keep your room,
Where white flows the river and bright blows the broom;
And you shall wash your linen and keep your body white
In rainfall at morning and dewfall at night.

And this shall be for music when no one else is near,
The fine song for singing, the rare song to hear!
That only I remember, that only you admire,
Of the broad road that stretches and the roadside fire.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 02:47 AM

if you believe, as i do, that listening to the roots of the music and absorbing styles is important in formimg ones own style, be it singing or instrumental music, then my criticisms of the style of Peter Pears singing Waly Waly for example, wouldbe that is over stated over and dramatic,because his roots are closer to the operatic style.
it is not just about stylistic use of ornamentation in the music
in Art music is stipulated and written down whether you should use a mordant or a trilll or something else, that is not the case in solo unaccompanied singing of tradtional music

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:49 PM

jACK , the point i was trying to make was that all unaccompanied solo singers used to some extent some degree of ornamentation some very little some quite a lot , but very very few singers was other than solo unaccompanied, but none that i can remember sounded like opera singers or peter pears.
Felipa glad to here, my apologies for misunderstanding

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:41 PM

I got Marjory Kennedy Fraser's first name wrong.

And why on earth does Sandman think that these parlour arrangements are what I personally want. I was just responding to the issue of preserving and passing on songs. And my examples were not entirely contemporary. M.K.F. was active in the first quarter of the 20th c. Mary O'Hara (b.1935) had a comeback in the late 1970s-1990s, but she was an important singer before the folk boom and -in terms of promoting and disseminating songs - probably bridged the gap between a time when house ceilidhs were common and the growth of singers' circles.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:25 PM

jack perhapsyou would be good enough to give examples of singers who did not use anything like sean nos style ,come on jack.none of them sounded like peter pears.. did they jack the style for nearly all the british isles was unaccompanied and not like PETER PEARS
I am talking about Brittens abomination of an accompaniment on waly waly

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:01 PM

And there have always been traditional singers all over the British Isles who DIDN'T use anything like sean nos style. Slapping it all over everything like mustard on a hot dog doesn't do anything for the tradition.

Pears did best on material Britten wrote for him. His versions of the Church Parables are unbeatable.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:53 PM

Felipa, if that is what you want fine
what i want and what i hear in ireland is a style of singing he term "sean-nós" is popularly applied to songs in English and Irish, with the style of singing that is characteristic. this is similar to the unaccompanied styles of england scotland and phil tanner of wales that is what i want, there are still plenty of people singning like that now visit cork singers club and thereare still people in the uk folk revival singning in sean nos style, we do not need peter pears

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

to quote Jim Carroll. coorectly the singer was Martin Reidy"He once said to us, "You know, I was delighted when you people started it come up and take my songs; I was so worried they were going to disappear that I tried to teach the dog to sing them"

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

"I am so glad you came along; I thought the songs would die out," could be an argument in favour of the art song performances of folk songs. At least someone is singing them.

Mary O'Hara's style of singing isn't my favourite, but I learned a lot of songs from her. (and I do think in some ways, timing and phrasing, she stays true to the origin of her repertoire)

Margaret Kennedy Fraser made parlour room arrangements of Gaelic songs collected in Scotland, but she also published the Gaelic texts of the songs and so produced a useful resource.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

I would rather have continued this conversation privately but since you said "i have no evidence" when there is plenty of evidence of poor perfomances putting off potential audience, you have in effect forced me to continue.
and if we have not got venues like folk clubs to perform in, we are forced to either sing in pubs[ where people go primarily for alcohol], or sing to a few friends at home or to a dog.
and here i will quote Jim Carroll,an irish tradtional singer who he collected from said "I am so glad you came along i thought the songs would die out, or i might have to teach the dog the songs."