The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM

My, but there are some seriously anti-Muslim posters in this thread.

Me, I respect Stevens very much, as a singer/songwriter and as a person of peace.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Muttley
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:16 PM

Lizzie: You're not president of the Cat Stevens Fan Club, are you???

Foolestroupe: It's The GOURD - - - it came first !!!!!!!

Guest: Read the Q'ran yourself. NOWHERE does it endorse murder, terrorism or any other like violence in the name of Mohammed or Islam. Those philosophies are taken out of context and are a radical supplement to the original. Mohammed exhorts defence of the teachings to the death but he does NOT advocate going out to die for it deliberately nor murdering other innocents in its name.

And the correct title is Q'ran or Quran - NOT Koran!

Muttley

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM

Is Martin back?

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:37 AM

look at all the profit they made...and after all THAT is what really counts in life isn't it! Well, yes....if you're a newspaper owner I guess!

Unless, as far as I understand it, your name is Rupert Murdoch. I gather this newspaper owner is so honest that terms that could put an artists rights at risk should not have been considered a problem.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM

No he isn't at all. But the person who wrote that comment......? Well, I guess they say a lot about themselves.


>>>Where I believe Yusaf Islam went wrong was to get involved in the dispute in the first place. He used his fame to try to justify an act that horrified the average Muslim on the street..<<<

Er...I think he was purely caught off-guard by a journalist. He certainly wasn't holding a press conference on the subject at the time.

Strange that you make no mention or criticism of the very journalist who started all this in the first place, by putting words into Yusuf's mouth, which he didn't say!
______________________________________________________________________
From Yusuf Islam's site:

"....Sadly, 14 years later and right up to today, some people still try to connect me to this issue, whereas I had nothing really to do with it; I was tricked and foolishly fell for the trap...............


....So…back in February 1989 I was delivering a talk about my journey to Islam at Kingston University in London, when somebody (probably a disguised journalist) mischievously posed a question about Islam's view on apostates and blasphemers. As a student who had studied the issue for the first time, I simply did my best by answering direct from legal texts which I had read.

Instead of reporting my response in context, which I naively expected, suddenly the headline in next day's paper read "Cat Says Kill Rushdie!" Well, needless to say, all hell then broke loose and my political education had really begun. Thank God the newspaper responsible, Today, has since folded and is now out of circulation; unfortunately the monstrous myth it created still survives."

http://catstevens.com/articles/00236/index.html


____________________________________________________________________

He was merely asked a question 'out of the blue' and then the answer he gave was not reported correctly, but new, highly inflammatory and deeply damaging words were inserted instead, as major headlines. Probably, as most of us can see, to sell VAST amounts of the Today paper and cause absolute chaos...which of course, could then be reported on for far longer and sell yet more vast amounts of newspapers.

To hell with the feelings of Yusuf Islam or anyone else....but hey!...look at all the profit they made...and after all THAT is what really counts in life isn't it! Well, yes....if you're a newspaper owner I guess!

It happens all the time in the media. What worries the hell out me is that people believe every single word they read.....

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:25 AM

Cat Stevens is a pile of fermenting leper's shit.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Fair enough, Fiona. I understand your viewpoint on the matter. I think he was a bit naive about the whole situation, probably partly because he was caught up in the excitement of his new faith at the time. People tend to have blinkers on when they are in the early days of a conversion of any kind...and they miss stuff that other people might notice in their enthusiasm of their new path in life.

You might consider watching the lengthy video that there is a link to at the very beginning of this thread. It doesn't give me the impression that Yusuf Islam is a dangerous fanatic at all. Dolly Parton's comments about his character are quite persuasive to me, and she's quite an intelligent woman who knows him well, a patriotic American, and certainly no fan of Islamic extremism.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Fiona
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM

rats just clicked correcting a typo!

cont...

In getting involved in a matter where he had neither the theology nor the political experience to deal with, Yusaf Islam left himself open to misinterpretation and played a small part in inflaming a very difficult situation.

The backlash against British Asian people living in the UK was dreadful, the media hyped the whole sorry mess I'm sure, but news film of book burning, protest marches British flags being burnt, also the counter demonstrations of skinheads chanting 'Ain't no Black in the Union Jack', mosques being defaced &c - no-one needed his ill informed comments.

During that time I knew one teenage girl who was attacked by a bunch of racists and had her pigtails cut off, while they called her a 'Paki bastard', that her parents were Indian and third generation Catholic to boot, made no difference to the folk who used the situation as an excuse to imply all Muslims were under the control of mad mullahs because, 'thats their religion innit?'.

Yusaf Islam is said to have softened his approach in recent years and I don't think he's a terrorist in any way, but he does practise an extreme form of his religion (he won't shake hands with women for example) and I deplore his views on segregated education. Integration is a far better way IMO, and most Muslims I know are neither so exteme in their faith or their politics.

fx

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Fiona
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:23 PM

From Little Hawk,

''Sounds like Salman Rushdie wrote an opportunistic, deliberately provocative book, hoping to garner lots of free publicity, and got a little more than he bargained for, the Ayatollah delivered an opportunistic Fatwa, hoping to stir up the faithful worldwide, and achieved nothing remotely useful thereby, and a clever reporter seized an opportunity of his own to spring a trap on a onetime pop star in order to get a good story, and succeeded tremendously, and Yusuf Islam got caught unawares in a witch's nest not of his own devising and is still having to defend himself many years later over it.

I call that just a sad tale of multiple human frailties playing themselves out in the theatre of the absurd... ''


-------------------

Little Hawk, I think this is a reasonable summing up, but what it misses is the public mood.

I doubt if the man on the street gave a damn about Rushdie or had even heard of him. He's not a 'popular' author, but the literary circles all jumped to his defence and it all became very intellectual and arty. I dare say most folks hereabouts would feel the same if it was a musician who had a fatwa declared on them, rather than an author.

Where I believe Yusaf Islam went wrong was to get involved in the dispute in the first place. He used his fame to try to justify an act that horrified the average Muslim on the street

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:49 PM

It was from me, but maybe I can get you a response from Shane or Chongo too. Hang on to that thought, O nameless and faceless one.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

Was that from Little Hawk, the ape or the guy in Blind river?

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:44 PM

Don't believe your own press, Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

"He can't even decide on a name for himself."

He's better off than you, you poor sod! You don't even have one. I bet your face is just a big blank, featureless void with a lot of blather issuing forth mysteriously.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:43 PM

Brilliant, huh?

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:40 PM

And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

His decision-making processes are fooked. He can't even decide on a name for himself.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:34 PM

I think all sorts of conclusions are possible LH.

The one I favour, taking on the New York Times report and Fiona's memory, and later reporsts and pparenly actions, is that the probably was a time when YI was rather extreme but he has probably "mellowed" considerably since. It's surely quite possible (and forgivable IMO) for that to happen with a person, especially when they have not long "seen the light" but it doesn't make a lot of sense in relation to his explainations.

It's all very muddy though and from what I've read, I'd neither like to say YI has always been "sinner" or "saint" in relation to the isues raised here.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:24 PM

That logic is false. Just because someone somewhere does something stupider doesn't make a subsequent stupid move on the guy's part a clever thing.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:16 PM

It sounds to me like a better move than joining IBM or the Republican or Democratic Parties, given the choice. ;-) It sounds smarter than enlisting in the Marines. It sound wiser than becoming a professional boxer. Any number of things, in fact...

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:12 PM

Nobody said the guy is smart. Hell, he converted to Islam. Think about it.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:10 PM

Cat Stevens may well have done all this, but it is his silence concerning the fatwah against Rushdie that niggles away at me. It just is not right to want to kill someone just because they said something you didn't like. This negates any good work that Stevens may otherwise have done.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:03 PM

Yeah, but someone who already hates him and hates the Muslim religion too doesn't want to hear that. Shhhh! Let them be comfortable in their willful ignorance. It hurts to hear stuff that contradicts an adopted position. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM

"On his official Web site, Islam [Cat Stevens} has posted numerous statements in opposition to terrorist attacks, most recently the school seizure in Beslan, Russia that ended with more than 300 people dead -- about half of them children.

Islam also criticized the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States and donated a portion of the royalties from a four-disc set of his music to the families of the September 11th Fund."

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

Either DB is very credulous...or he's getting paid to spread hate propaganda. I suspect it's the former.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

Oh really DB?


_____________________________________________________________________

Yusuf Islam's Reaction
to London Attacks

7th July 2005

________________________________

"I am horrified at the nightmarish acts of carnage we have just seen inflicted on London and its people in what authorities are describing as co-ordinated terror attacks. What on earth these murderers think they can gain by blowing up innocent men, women and children is impossible to imagine. No doubt the fatalities will include people of all religions and races without discrimination. My heartfelt sympathy goes out to all those who have suffered loss or injury.

After such devastating barbarity the most important thing now is vigilance and clear thinking. All right minded members of society should realise this is an act of vile madness and should not respond to it in a reflex action. It is possible that the perpetrators may have links to Al-Qaida and carry foreign or Arabic sounding names, but may I remind the press and all people with a voice, that such a discovery would not make all the rest of British Muslim citizens and workers, who are unanimously opposed to such extreme ideologists, brandable or guilty.

The present state of the world would move that much closer to bedlam if everybody loses balance at times like these. No. But it must be the job of the police and authorities to identify clearly the guilty parties associated with these attacks and deal with them as swiftly as possible. We all want to know who they are.


________________________________



And here is the site from which that came.

http://www.yusufislam.org.uk/londonattacks.shtml

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

"The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens"

I don't get it. What's the punchline? Is this one of those two-page books?

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM

No, the people who do the violence invalidate themselves.

Damn right not all Muslims are extremists. None of the ones I know are. I don't have the impression that Yusuf/Cat is either.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:30 AM

Heard Rushdie speak on Moyer's interview. Made sense. He has a Muslim background. He said that not all Muslims are extremists and that it's time for more reason and less ignorance.

The First Admendent of our Constitution protects the right to worship without imposing that right on others.

Rushdie's decision was based on his conviction that democracy is the right to criticize that with which you don't agree.

Cartoons should not be censored. Extremists regardless of religious belief or affilliation have no right to intimidate anyone if he/she disagrees with those views. In the US, someone is going to be offended at criticism. It's the American way.

Unfortunately, many resort to violence to prevail. When religion does this, it invalidates itself.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:10 AM

Har! Har! I love that picture, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:59 AM

Les

Little Hawk does not lie!

Be afraid....be *very* afraid!!

http://msn.freedownloads.be/getdisplay.php?emoid=3


Lizzie ;0)

PS: And could we have less of the 'limey' please, I'll have you know my ancestors were Spanish!....and *that* explains the passion and the !!!!....and No....I SO don't do menopausal, I have glitter on my wrinkles...AND I've been fully trained by Little Hawk's 'Ninja Hamsters'

So....Watch it Buddy!) ;0)

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM

Look, lesblank, I don't mind at all being called "a Canadian radical" by you and your ilk, but calling another innocent person a "menopausal old Limey" is going too damn far in my opinion. ;-) You should NOT have come back sir, because you are a royal pain in the posterior. Be advised that my squad of trained attack hamsters are on their way to your miserable hovel as I speak.

"Breeng me hees cojones!" I commanded them. You are in deep shit, lesblank.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: lesblank
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

Enough of this ranting and raving by a menopausal old Limey and a Canadian radical !! At least put this thread down in the BS: section where it belongs and let's get back to music !! Sometimes I'm sorry I ever came back !!

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:33 AM

Mass murder is justified all the time for things like: Oil. Market share. Arable land. Fresh water. Political control.

Why get so righteously indignant when some other people justify it on the basis of religion? Are they any worse than the ones who kill for oil?

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:05 AM

Quite frankly, I think anyone searching for anything in Yusuf Islam's words is a sign of a potential problem. You speak as if he were a prophet or a god. He is a singer. Nothing more. His music resonated with me once upon a time. I am not looking for the meaning of life in his words, I simply wonder if his music will be any good. Seems to me that folks that get so wound up over this guy must need some other things in their lives. Maybe the advice to go and make music, or write some of your own songs, is sound.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 11:13 PM

Or in other words, that you can justify murder for Religious Beliefs...

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 11:03 PM

Quothe Lizzie:

"To me it depends entirely on what you are 'searching' for within Yusuf's words."

What I'm searching for is any indication of his saying
that it is MORALLY WRONG (as opposed to 'against civil
law') to kill somebody for what he styles as blasphemy.

Try as I might, I can't find it.

QED

(Methinks the lady doth protest too much.)

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:23 PM

Well, Jon, I can agree that there would appear to be grounds there to fuel plenty of argument about it, all right...both pro and con.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:08 PM

I don't know, LH. Fiona seems to remember seeing the program that the New York Times reported about where he suggested he might phone the Ayatollah. This is not the "trap" Today reported on and YI attempts to explain.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

As you say, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:55 PM

I brought it up merely because, like you, Guest, I can't control my curiosity... ;-) It's a habit that makes me keep coming back to threads like this one, just to see what happened while I was away.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:53 PM

Sounds like Salman Rushdie wrote an opportunistic, deliberately provocative book, hoping to garner lots of free publicity, and got a little more than he bargained for, the Ayatollah delivered an opportunistic Fatwa, hoping to stir up the faithful worldwide, and achieved nothing remotely useful thereby, and a clever reporter seized an opportunity of his own to spring a trap on a onetime pop star in order to get a good story, and succeeded tremendously, and Yusuf Islam got caught unawares in a witch's nest not of his own devising and is still having to defend himself many years later over it.

I call that just a sad tale of multiple human frailties playing themselves out in the theatre of the absurd...

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:52 PM

Well, this thread WAS receding quietly below the horizon until you brought it back up...

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

Still rolling along merrily, are we all...? Heh! Nothing has longer legs than than an argument that won't change anything or alter anyone's established opinion.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:20 AM

"First remove the beam from your own eye, before you seek to remove the mote from the eye of your neighbour"

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:24 AM

But "testing the dispute in court" would be tantamount to putting a man on trial for his life. That means that the capital punishment issue itself would have to be reopened. Then they would have to decide which crimes warranted it. How far down the list after premeditated murder does exercising your right to free speech come? They'd have to revise the publishing and censorship laws too, and it could only result in works being banned. In other words, intellectual and cultural impoverishment.

If there were a court case and the verdict went in favour of the accused, things would be pretty much as they did happen: Grumbling, protest, discontent. But if he lost this precedent-setting case? It's unthinkable.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Fiona
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:23 AM

Jon, Jeri,

thats the documentery I was talking about. Maybe a World in Action special? It was setup like a courtroom with lots of chattering class authors and IMO Yusaf Islam did himself and his new religion no favours when he made the remarks he did. I think he was ill-used by the programme makers, but more fool him for getting involved, he did know thw power and pitfalls of the media.

At the time the fatwa was declared on Rushdie, most folk didn't really know what it meant, but when books were being burned in the street (book burning fills me with horror) bookshop staff being threatened, shops being firebombed, a translator was murdered and so on. Looking back it does seem to have been a turning point.

IMO Rushdies book was a poor thing, not a patch on 'Midnights Children' and I did suspect he was trying to cause an uproar by writing the 'Satanic Verses'. Some of the Muslin community were outraged that the blasphemy laws in this country didn't apply to their religion and it may have been better if they had applied to Islam and the dispute could have been tested in court. IIRC one of the radical Muslim demands was for a change to the blasphemy laws.

fx

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:39 AM

Foolestroupe, perhaps before you quoted what you did, you should have read what I said here:

"As I stated above, people 'see' what they want to see, in anything. That goes as much for me, as it does for you, or for anyone else...including Yusuf Islam."

*Everyone* interprets things in a different manner. I'll leave you all to battle it out though, and search for articles and words to condemn.

But remember, this was 14 years ago. Since that time Yusuf has done much to open the minds of many in the Muslim world. He cannot do it overnight, he cannot do it alone...and he has to do it in the way that he knows will best work. His words, once more, from the documentary above, where he was addressing many Muslim leaders.

"We need inspired leadership to guide us back to the elevated path of wisdom and away from the temporal politics of ignorance."

Right, that's almost the last word from me in here. I'll leave people to twist and spin. And here, really are my last words.

I wish Yusuf success in his peaceful mission....and I wish him love.


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: Keef
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:12 AM

At the time of the Rushdie affair I was outraged that the right to free speech was suddenly overturned in deference to the Islamic religion.
My memory may be less than perfect but as I recall it Cat Stephens was enthusiastic about the death sentence upon Rushdie being carried out.
Here in Australia another new convert to Islam, the boxer Anthony Mundine stated in an interview that Americans deserved the 911 attack.
As a devout atheist who loves a beer and doesn't want to kill anyone I feel uncomfortable with the often stated aims of Islam that do not seem to encourage tolerance and coexistence.
I think that Yusuf Islam is being disingenuious and self serving in claiming that he did not really encourage the murder of Rushdie, he most certainly did not speak up in support of Rushdie's right to free speech and personal safety. To this day Rushdie has to remain in hiding.

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 09:08 PM

"and then bang my head hard against it, in total disbelief and utter frustration!!!!!!"

Please don't stop on my account....

Subject: RE: The Wisdom of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM

"People will see what they WANT to see! Even if that so often means NEVER seeing the truth, which is staring them right in the eye!"

"First remove the beam from your own eye, before you seek to remove the mote from the eye of your neighbour"