BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stu
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 04:25 AM

"The Ice Age, as it's called, is not in contradiction to either the Bible or science. I'm willing to elaborate if required."

It's required. With references please. No hearsay and pseudo-scientific twaddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 03:45 AM

Here's something else to worry about - that the ancient Earth was at least once almost covered by ice.

There's a biblical explanation for that--Shortly after the earth was covered with the worldwide flood, there was an ice age. There is plenty of Biblical and scientific evidence for it. The book of Job was written shortly after the flood, and often talks about cold from the North, ice and snow, etc. The Ice Age, as it's called, is not in contradiction to either the Bible or science. I'm willing to elaborate if required. But at the moment I'm working on literally a dozen or so posts that are half done....

Iona

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 03:43 AM

These ideas [of 'thou shalt not kill' and 'love thy neighbor as thyself'] predate Christia-insanity. Most of the tenets of the bible were borrowed from other cultures and religious ideas much earlier.

And the reason that these doctrines were already existent when the Bible was because they were instituted in the first chapters of Genesis (e.g. during Adam's lifetime and shortly thereafter). Biblical principles were instituted in the consciences of men before God inspired the first words of the Bible, and that solves the supposed 'problem' of pre-canon (that is, when the Bible was compiled) ethics. God instilled right and wrong in the hearts of men from the beginning. Some men suppress the truth to a degree where they no longer are sensitive to right and wrong, but God does instill it.

Iona
"Let God be true, though every man a liar" (Romans 3:4)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 02:22 AM

"Do you believe that it is possible to question, doubt, or disbelieve some of the contents of the Bible and still be a Christian?

A simple "yes" or "no," please."

Don, I can't give a simple "Yes" or "No" because it's not a simple question. There are a lot of situations that can't be head on answered yes or no, and require a lot of examination to make a Biblically sound verdict. Yes, I believe that Christians can doubt some points of the Scriptures and still be saved, but there are consequences for their unbelief. " But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth [in other translations, doubts] is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:6-8, note mine).

Really, your question comes down to assurance, and has to be applied from case to case scenario, not just given a blanket "yes" or "no". If the Christian is doubting something, I'd say they need to spend a lot of time in prayer and study of the Scriptures. That's the only place where there are real answers to any question. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:15-16) Tell me, Don, since you reject so much of the Bible, what parts of it do you believe and what foundation do you have for *those* parts being true? Or do you deny the Bible entirely?

Iona
"There is no higher pleasure for a redeemed soul--than contemplating the glories of Jesus!
There is no surer evidence of a gracious state--than a thirsting after deeper knowledge of Jesus, and a more thorough conformity to His likeness!" -William Bacon Stevens

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 12:27 AM

pete:
"tia-i responded to that many posts past."

No you did not. You ducked it many posts past.

If you wish, you can realize that I am just stupid and copy and paste your answer again (please!).

Just to be clear, the question is:

"What evidence (specifically) would be required for you to abandon your belief in YEC?"

Anything you say that does not directly answer this question places you outside of any scientific debate...you too Iona. Sorry, but that is the definition of science. If you want to have a philosophical or theological debate, that is fine. But if you wish to continue claiming that you are discussing science, you must explicitly answer this question.

Not my rules.
The rules of science.
Join or not, your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:09 PM

Or, like George Carlin, you can pray to Joe Pesci...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:57 PM

Well I, for one, have no attention of being the victim of an entirely imaginary serial abuser!

It's in the psychology of Christians to equate such behaviour with LOVE; they both LOVE and FEAR The Lord, because of whatever darkness they cultivate in their rotten hearts.

Do you believe that it is possible to question, doubt, or disbelieve some of the contents of the Bible and still be a Christian?

Following on, I'd have to say NO. What's the point in being a Christian if you recognise that the Bible is just a book written by a bunch of whacked out blokes with a tendancy to whine and advocate wholesale genocide? Christianity is predicated on a fulfillment of OT prophesy; it makes no sense otherwise. I think Christians who don't believe in a 100% literal interpretation of the Bible are being a tad hypocritical. Those who do, of course, a bunch of delusional cretins.

There are JESUISTS who run with the Gospel of Thomas or the Q-Text and selected bits of John, but see the teachings of Jesus in a Humanist context entirely removed from the supernatural. Note: there is a world of difference between The Supernatural and The Spiritual. It is possible (and desirable) to be Spiritual without believing in God, Angels, Devils, Prophets, Virgin Births, Ressurections, Heaven, Hell - or any of the other fantasy constructs integral to Christianity. It is possible to recognise Christ as a teacher without sinking so low as to be a Christian.

*

I'm thinking of changing my Mudcat handle to Perennial Ralph.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:49 PM

If she answers "no," then she condemns millions of people who are doing the very things that Jesus said they should do. Again, Matthew 25:35-40.

This includes many, such as a friend of mine who works in the Astrobiology Department of the University of Washington. A thoroughgoing scientist, she is involved in research into the kind of conditions in which life can EVOLVE. Animals such as shrimp-like creatures, and tube-worms that survive—and thrive—in areas such as the mid-Atlantic ridge, near what they call "black smokers" (volcanic vents on the sea floor), where the water temperature is over 700 degrees F. Temperatures can rise to these heights without the water boiling because of the immense pressure at that depth. Many of these creatures derive their energy, not from sunlight like the life-forms we are more familiar with, but from heat.

Research of this kind gives an indication that, even in the harsh conditions that may exist on other planets, life can still evolve.

Why would God create such an immense Universe if S/He intended it to remain barren? Why would S/He not populate it?

Evolution is the mechanism. A mechanism invented and used by God.

Those who wrote the Bible—mere mortals—had no understanding of this.

The instruction to humans may have been, "Go forth and multiply." But long before that, God's instruction to our one-celled ancestors was "Go forth and divide!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:54 PM

Scrotal Raphe

I went to school with him.

I knew him too. He was just fienne.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:44 PM

Don't hold yer breath, Don.. unless you look good in blue

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:38 PM

Iona never did answer the question I posed. She ducked the question and simply referred me back to the Bible.

I ask it again. Iona--

Do you believe that it is possible to question, doubt, or disbelieve some of the contents of the Bible and still be a Christian?

A simple "yes" or "no," please.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:53 PM

I was just passing!

There is no point arguing with Iona by writing a long piece, because she can do blather at great length. In that last missive from her I counted 12 assertions and 0 pieces of evidence. If you attempt a rational response she simply dumps another mass of ill-considered declarations into the thread without dealing with your comments. Look over the past posts: that's all she does.

No, I am convinced the only way to make any progress is to pick any detail you like of something she has said and get her to defend that until she is forced to admit she doesn't know. She will try all sorts of diversions - delays, attempting to talk about something else, whatever, but keep it focused and in the end she will either have to agree she doesn't know. Losing focus is important to her because its ideal waffle territory. Keeping focus puts her on the defensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:48 PM

"The Biblical God is one of the most hideous mythological creations humanity has ever devised. Vengeful, jealous, prone to absurd tantrums and testing the faith of his faithful by allowing Satan to wreck their lives. The whole concept is bullshit from the off; inconsistent, entirely imperfect and insanely barbaric:"

I recently read a book in which the God of the Bible is compared to an abusive father. An abuser is jealous, vengeful and prone to tantrums and rages. He also batters his spouse and children into believing that they are incorrigibly 'imperfect' - i.e. 'sinners'. Well I, for one, have no attention of being the victim of an entirely imaginary serial abuser!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:19 PM

Scrotal Raphe

I went to school with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:16 PM

. And if little Johnny is taught that he is just another type of earthworm, what's going to stop him from beating up or even killing his fellow earthworms (children)?

(1) Humans are not dexcended from tapeworms, Nobody ever said they are.
(192) And if little Johnny is taught that he is just another type of human, what's going to stop him from beating up or even killing his fellow humans (children)? That's right, the sense of morality taught him by his parents. And did that come from the bible, where it's OK to slaughter the children of entire communities, or even all the children in the world except those of one incestuous family? Not on your nelly. The way people deal with each other has constantly evolved as the best way we can live together.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 12:19 PM

It should be apparent to those who come in contact with fanatical religious types who rely on the so-called "inerrancy" of the bible, that there can be no argument of a logical or analytical basis to satisfy them. You will always be wrong if you try.

Young Earth Creationism is a product of this fanatical thinking and is motivated by
a religious worldview that keeps Israel from confronting its atrocities, condemning
mankind to a mythical "hell" and reserving their right to an assumed superior morality.

It also is predicated on a reading of Revelations in the bible whereby if you don't believe, you are consigned to destruction by a sadistic god.

Santorum is an example of this kind of thinking which makes him a dangerous
candidate for president.

Perry and Newt followed suit and Romney may worm his way into this attempt to woo the GOP religious fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 11:09 AM

"if little Johnny is taught that he is just another type of earthworm, what's going to stop him from beating up or even killing his fellow earthworms (children)? "

I know!--I know!

Kant's "Categorical Imperative"

I doubt Iona will be studying the details, but it essentially explains why men should follow what it VERY similar to the Golden Rule.

I suppose Iona will just say that Kant got his 'idea' from God and then over complicated it....but it IS possible to defend 'good' and identify 'bad' without recourse to a bible.

Of course, the answer is also we are NOT "just another earthworm"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 10:13 AM

We're all female by default really; another grave error in that MAN (by which I mean MEN) create GOD in the image of their very worst & most idiotic attributes. So we have GOD as DIY Cretin knocking together an IKEA flat-pack paradise where the shelves starts falling down with a few days; GOD as Warlord / Vengeful / Tantrum prone buffoon who throws the floodwaters about when he doesn't get his own way. GOD coming to earth (again in his guise of DIY cretin / Carpenter) and ending up getting nailed to one of his own flatpack IKEA crosses in an Antisemitic porno-snuff movie. D'oh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 07:53 AM

I always associate stuff made of two halves joined together with a seam with those cheap plastic toys you get on market stalls. Intelligent design my arse (or, in this case, intelligent design my perineal raphe).

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stu
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 07:05 AM

From Genesis, 15:36:

"And Adam spake unto the Lord saying "I know thou has named all things that liveth and crawleth on the Earth Lord, and thou has named all parts of my body made in the image of thy own, but I can not remember the name for that bit betwixt John Wayne's saddle bags and me nipsy wot gets reet sweaty in the summer?"

And the Lord answered thus: "It shall be named thou's Barse, now go forth and multiply."

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:46 AM

This thread has become all smoke and mirrors now. Smoke pertaining to the biblical discussion and mirrors apropos of the perineal raphe...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:28 AM

Iona,

Thanks for your latest post & yourexplanations.

However, as previously on a number of occasions, you've omitted to provide a source for your information.

In any debate, its always most important to be able to substantiate your statements with evidence of this nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:10 AM

Because it's notcher bollocks and notcher arse.

It's the Scrotal Raphe, part of the Perineal Raphe which (according to WIKI) is a visible line or ridge of tissue on the human body that extends from the anus through the perineum. In men, this raphe continues through the midline of the scrotum (scrotal raphe) and upwards through the posterior midline aspect of the penis (penile raphe). It is the result of a fetal developmental phenomenon whereby the scrotum (the developmental equivalent of the labia in females) and penis close toward the midline and fuse.

*

Meanwhile, more Moral Perfection from the Big Fellow:

2 Samuel 12:11 - Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

As kids we used to look this stuff up and giggle; now it's just a vile catalogue of sexual violence and depravity. And all in God's name.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stu
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:57 AM

"Or a line of labial closure on his testicles?

Good God, so that's what it is!!   :boggle:"

The medical term for the line of labial closure is Notcher.

Because it's notcher bollocks and notcher arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:55 AM

"And if little Johnny is taught that he is just another type of earthworm, what's going to stop him from beating up or even killing his fellow earthworms (children)?"

Well, the Bible certainly hasn't stopped 'little Johnny' from 'stamping on' earthworms, has it? But it has taught him that he is superior to earthworms and it hasn't warned him of the consequences of destroying them. Neither has it stopped 'little Johnny's' God-fearing dad from clear felling forests, polluting the land, the streams, the rivers, the seas and the oceans. Neither has it stopped him from driving countless plants and animals to the brink of extinction - and far too many of them over that brink. It hasn't stopped LJ's dad from killing indigenous peoples all over the world or depriving them of their resource bases. It hasn't stopped LJ's dad from invading other parts of the world and subjugating and enslaving the people there and stealing their land and its resources. And it hasn't stopped LJ's dad from spending so much of the wealth, derived from the rape of the world, on appalling weapons of mass destruction - many of which end up killing innocent non-combatants.

And don't give me all that sh*t about sin and sinners, Iona, and that if LJ and his dad truly BELIEVED and REPENTED they wouldn't do these things. Face it, Iona, your vile old book with its insane, confused and psychotic messages is an integral part of the f**king problem!!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:43 AM

Scrotum, of course. Bollocks in any case. The older you get, the lower they swing. And talking of balls...

The Biblical God is morally perfect

The Biblical God is one of the most hideous mythological creations humanity has ever devised. Vengeful, jealous, prone to absurd tantrums and testing the faith of his faithful by allowing Satan to wreck their lives. The whole concept is bullshit from the off; inconsistent, entirely imperfect and insanely barbaric:

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 - When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Zachariah 14:1-2 - Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.

etc. etc.

In what possible shape or form is this barbaric construct of a deity Morally Perfect?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:06 AM

"These ideas [of 'thou shalt not kill' and 'love thy neighbor as thyself'] predate [Christianity]. Most of the tenets of the [B]ible were borrowed from other cultures and religious ideas much earlier."

And the reason that these doctrines were already existent when the Bible was compiled was because they were instituted in the first chapters of Genesis. Biblical principles were instituted in the consciences of men before God inspired the first words of the Bible, and that solves the supposed 'problem' of pre-canon (that is, when the Bible was compiled) ethics. God instilled right and wrong in the hearts of men from the beginning. Some men suppress the truth to a degree where they no longer are sensitive to right and wrong, but God does instill it. The Bible borrows nothing, but supplies everything!

"Biblical ethics are a recent phenomenon and have been grossly distorted and if you read the bible, you can see how this is true. The King James image of [G]od in the old testament is a tyrant and a mass murderer.
At no point in Origin of Species did Darwln ever state that humans were aquatic sludge.
This is a misconception used as propaganda by fundamentalist Christians."

Darwin might not have stated it, but hundreds of other evolutionists have, and Darwin's premises leads to that conclusion. Textbooks tell little Johnny that "you share a common heritage with earthworms". Chances are that little Johnny enjoys stomping on earthworms in puddles after a rain. And if little Johnny is taught that he is just another type of earthworm, what's going to stop him from beating up or even killing his fellow earthworms (children)? It's happening more and more these days.

The Biblical God is morally perfect, and the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same. God never changes, and neither do His laws. (remember Annanias and Sapphira?--Remember, that's in the New Testament....) This will be much more exhaustively addressed in a further post, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:52 AM

I hope it's actually on his scrotum.

And dynamite can move mountains. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 06:57 PM

Or a line of labial closure on his testicles?

Good God, so that's what it is!!   :boggle:

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 04:43 PM

pete, that was not really a mistake. I was trying to make a humorous point. Apparently I failed, at least with you.

But it was not a mistake in my basic argument against the veracity of the whole Creationist myth, and the Creationism vs. Science debate.

Science has wrought wonders in revealing the nature and history of the Cosmos and the nature of our existence. And the existence of all life on the planet, and the possibility, perhaps even certitude of life on other planets in the universe. The telescope was a product of science. And it was railed against by the Church when it was first turned on the skies.

Scientific findings and the applications thereof have resulted in things that would have been considered miracles in Christ's time. Space travel, medical breakthroughs, too many things to catalog. Science has done all this.

There is an old cliché that says, "Faith can move mountains."

I have yet to see this demonstrated.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 02:04 PM

I think even within the Mythos of Genesis we're not expected to believe that Eve was the same size as Adam's rib, or even his dick; certainly the iconographic tradition depicts her as being the same size as one another. Creationists would balk at either being depicted with belly-buttons though, seeing as how neither was born from a womb.

Did Adam have nipples? Or a line of labial closure on his testicles? How do Creationists account for male nipples or other such evidences of vestigial hi-jinx? Curiouser and curiouser, but no more curious than believers in the literal existence of Folk Music arguing the toss with born again cretins. Pots and kettles, my friends, pots and kettles...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:26 PM

Everyone knows that Eve was formed from Adam's rib. What most folks don't realize is that Eve weighed only 12 ounces. She found sex with Adam rather painful, and giving birth was much worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:09 PM

don firth
i am sorry you found my last post an offence.there was none intended.
the mistake i was referring to was that you asked about ribs in men following adams op.i answered that and you responded "fair point pete".
again i say ,,i was not intending anything insincere.

tia-i responded to that many posts past.
pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 04:24 AM

Thanks TIA. It is some time since I did my OU Earth Science, and I am always reluctant to claim any comparison to those who do more conventional courses with MUCH more field work. Usually when you enter the fray I leave it to you, and learn.

I note that we both have a Quaker connection. I've the odd strand in the family history, but came to it later when other places seemed to move away from where I was.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 11:39 PM

Sorry, got no repsonse. Not surprised, but trying again...

pete and Iona,
To retain any credibility RE science, I must insist again...
What evidence (specifically) would be required for you to abandon your belief in YEC?
Please provide this for us.
If you do not, you highlight the chasm between science and religion.
This is not a trick question.
It is THE question.
If you cannot answer this question, we know that we are speaking different languages.
You are arguing religion, and some of us are arguing science.
Without your specific answer, we cannot continue to try to meld these conversations.
So, answer the question, or admit that you are not talking science.
Sorry, but those are the only options.
And I totally respect either answer you might give (if you give an answer).

BTW Penny S. knows her sh@t in spades. I have taught Earth Science at three Unis. Makes me a godless liberal, I know (despite all those years of Quaker school). I do not have the time or inclination to tilt at the crazy windmills, but she pwns them every time (and they do not even realize it).

Windmillers; answer my question above if you wish to have your views on science hold any water whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:25 PM

""don T-4 maybe 5 songs in 3 hrs of singaround is hardly excessive whatever some may dislike in a performer-IMO.""

Disingenuous answer Pete, since you know that each of us in those evening sessions only sings at the very most 4 - 5 songs.

That then would be 100 percent, or damn close to it.

My suggestion, kindly meant, was simply that you think about expanding the repertoire to allow some variation in both tone and tempo. If you would try it, you would quickly see the advantage to yourself as well as others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:10 PM

""well, Don... I get your point but even I sing a few Pentecostal hymns...just because they are such amazing music.""

Me too Bill (the odd gospel song), but the operative phrase there is "a few", and my comment was a suggestion to examine and perhaps alter the balance.

I write mostly comic songs, but I sing pretty much a 50/50 comic/serious set. Even being made to laugh can be insufferable if carried out continuously and relentlessly.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:48 PM

There's an old—and quite sneaky—debating technique wherein, if you are getting thoroughly trounced, you thank the person or persons trouncing you for admitting that they made a mistake. The object is to bewilder them—and those following the debate—by getting them to wonder WHAT mistake they may have made, and when and where did they admit it, when they don't remember ever doing so.

The point is to try to undercut their credibility by making everyone else (and THEM, TOO, if you can work it) think they are fallible and there are (unspecified) mistakes in their arguments.

Okay, pete. What mistakes? And where did we admit to making them?

Be specific.

Don Firth

P. S.   I'm busy for the rest of the afternoon, so that will give you time to work out your tap dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:20 PM

Penny's "mistake" was to think the rich man (Andy lived in Jerusalem, glory hallebaluyah...oops) was callecd Dives in the story as reported by "saint Luke". Generously trying to engage with the extremists, she strayed onto their home ground. A victory for the nasty bigots, in their own estimation.

I've no idea what mistake you admitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:46 PM

Excuse me, pete, but what mistakes were those we were supposed to be admitting?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

thanks don firth and penny for admitting mistakes.it was big of you considering your greater academic acheivements.
dmcg-will miss your contributions on the thread despite your usually disagreeing[though without the verbal gut rot of some posters!].
methinks you are a little hasty in your assessment of iona [being quite new on these thread].she also has rethought some of her former posts in the details thereof.but thanks for your kind words about me.
pete

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM

A point I've been trying to make all along, Strings.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 02:35 PM

The bible does have an answer for everything and that answer for the most part is all wrong. The bible is a form of folklore and should be taken as such. (Frankly, I'd prefer to read Shakespeare).

How many Christo-maniacs really subscribe to the Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill", or do they waffle about it as did Augustine, and claim "just wars" and that killing is different from murder in war time? Joe Campbell said that Christianity is a Pacifist Religion supported by "The Sermon on the Mount". Does this reach Christians?

Christia-insanity is the order of the political day in Republican circles shown by Santorum, Romney, both Pauls, Newt, all who claim a moral high ground. Even Obama still pounds the pulpit once in a while.

Young Earth Creationism adds to the cess pool of ignorance that swirls around
minds of these Christo-maniacs who cling to their ideas as flies to fly paper or moths to light bulbs. They spout platitudes without thought, conviction without depth and panaceas without substance.

Jesus was a folkloric figure who preached peace while so many Christians today
justify war, murder (by lethal injection), robbery in the name of capitalism, freedom to ruin other lives with their vitriolic propaganda and the quest for money.

Did these Christians actually study the words of Jesus in the Sermon?

How many Christians today actually have read the bible? So many are ignorant of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 11:06 AM

Wondered how many posts it would take before everybody was contemplating the navel.

Iona said men wrote the bible but it was of God, or some such waffle. In that case, god wrote "The God Delusion" and the Egyptian hieroglyphs.

He also told me to shake my head in disbelief that people can believe all that crap, hence ensuring my place at his side in paradise. Hell must be rather lonely, as god tells us all to do whatever we are doing; being friendly towards gay people, supporting the right for women to read aloud from their big book of fairy tales, drinking beer on their sabbath, relaxing with internet porn, having an affair with the woman down the road, making a bacon butty.

Yep, all guaranteed to get you a first class ticket to heaven. Or if it isn't then your god isn't so much omnipotent as impotent.

Thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:27 AM

Hands up to a couple of things I needed to be corrected on.

Pete, I'd got so used to thinking Dives that I hadn't spotted that it was an intrusion after the origin. And I was rehashing something a friend said when discussing the story this week, and he didn't know, either. I don't expect that Jerome when translating into Latin, which is where the word crept in, had Crassus in mind. Interesting that Lazarus means "God is my help", though.

Iona, I've found your mist - my translation suggests a flood coming from the earth is a better translation, while giving mist as an alternative in a footnote. It applies in the garden before the fall, and then nothing is said about weather until the Flood, though when that happens, it is clear that rain is understood, before it starts. Gen 6 v 7 says "I intend to bring the waters of the flood over the earth" which could refer back to that previous mist/flood. Gen 7 v 4 says "in seven days' time I will send rain over the earth". If it had not rained before that, God would have needed to explain that. So you can see why I had the idea that rain happened before the big flood. (This particular translation is the New English Bible, which was the first to hand this morning.)

I have tended to listen to and read these accounts as to do with the relationship between humans and God, with the descriptions of landscape, weather etc as incidental, which has led to me not always recalling these details as important. Since, because of all the physical evidence to the contrary, I can't accept them as an accurate description of the development of the history of the planet, I shall probably continue not to take them as central to the passages in which they occur. (But I shall be more assiduous in checking before posting.)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:58 PM

Iona, I'm afraid you have the horse hitched to the cart with its rump foremost.

Where is you evidence that the gene pool has degenerated? This flies in the face of the findings of Gregor Mendel (a good Christian monk) and the whole science of genetics ("Oh! There's that word 'science' again! I guess I can just dismiss that out of hand!").

Examples of inbreeding (legally, first cousins or closer) were rife in the European royal families such as the Hapsburgs, whose inbreeding led to all kinds of genetic defects, including such things as the "Hapsburg jaw". This made eating quite difficult because the lower teeth were in front of the upper teeth, and the molars didn't line up properly. Definite birth defect, and several members of European royalty were affected by this result of inbreeding.

Since it was the general rule in European royal families that one must marry within one's own class, and as a way of forming alliances with other nations, it was not long until these aristocratic gene pools were full of recessive genes. This happens when close relatives procreate. The recessive genes become reinforced and genetic defects, such as the Hapsburg jaw, hemophilia, and various forms of mental retardation proliferated.

This is exactly the kind of thing that would have happened right from the beginning if the Adam and Eve myth was actual history. And we would ALL be idiots with undershot jaws, crossed eyes, cone-shaped heads, and all manner of birth defects. The human race would have probably gone the way of the dinosaurs, but the "killer meteor" would have been its own gene pool!

(Of course, that would tend to explain a lot. . . .)

What we DID have was the benefits of what geneticists call "hybrid vitality" (NOT mating within one's immediate group tends to produce stronger and healthier offspring). Hybrid vitality, by the way, is a great argument for the general benefits of interracial marriage!

Think about it.

Don Firth

P. S.   " But as the human race degenerated after the fall of man. . . ."   Would you explain what you mean by "the fall of man" and how and why the human race "degenerated?"

According to my Bible (I have a couple of different versions, including the King James), the Fall came when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden—THEN, they begot Cain and Abel. Then Seth and "other sons and daughters."

So according to your timeline, the gene pool began to degenerate right from the start, before Adam and Eve began their begetting of children. So your timeline of Biblical events is a bit tangled there, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:54 PM

Now this thread is well in excess of 900 posts, I think it has reached the point that I will be dropping out. I'll still read it, and if someone says something irresistable. well, by definition I couldn't could I? - but my intention is to stop now.


So where have we got to? In my opinion only, of course.

I've spoken with Pete on other threads, always on essentially the same topic. As I've said above, when challenged about how his ideas fits real life, I find pete is prepared to think about and consider the issues. While I very often don't agree with his conclusions, I do feel he is sincere and trying his best to make his ideas and life co-exist. In short, I find him essentially honest.

I am afraid I can't say the same for Iona, who to me seems to pretty much treat the Bible disrepectfully as just a shield for views that are wholly secular in foundation, and those lacking any of the benefits that come from a solid humanist or humanitarian outlook. I will say no more.

Yet like the proverbial grit in the oyster, these people have led to a thread of exceptionally high quality. I single out Penny and Don Firth for presenting views that are compatible with science and yet still compatible with a faith based outlook. They and many others here - I won't list you because this would end up like an Oscar speech - have given me much food for thought and much information that I previously did not know. So I for one am somewhat wiser as a result of this thread (and if I'm not greatly wiser, that's just because of my own failings.)


So thank you one and all. Even, though it was very much not what they intended, Iona and pete. You have deepened my scientific knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 06:35 PM

Teaching people what to believe is bad, teaching them how to think is good.

If Congress outlaws lying, will preaching be illegal?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:49 PM

"Another thing I want to address is that you all are always bringing up the bad things that professing Christians have done, and then using it as a proof against Christianity. In logic that's called Ad Hominem, ..."

Yes, Iona, I agree with you ... strictly in terms of logic, that is ...

But:

1. You're always going on about "good" and "evil", and how it's only possible to tell the difference through reference to the Bible (utter tosh, of course). If your assertion is actually true (which it isn't) then lots of Christians appear to have failed to get the message and have done countless evil things in the name of Christianity.

2. Christianity puts humans at the pinnacle of creation. As a result our (nominally) Christian culture has come to believe that it is entitled to destroy 'inferior', non-human organisms and the natural environment - and even, in certain circumstances, to kill and enslave non-Christian humans.

These points do not, of course, 'disprove' Christianity but they do tend to indicate that if the objective of Christianity is to spread 'good' throughout the world - as you are always asserting - then it's done a pretty poor job!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:35 PM

How's that, Don? The Gene pool was much, much stronger in the beginning than it is now. Intermarriage of family wasn't outlawed until Moses' time. Abraham was married to his half-sister Sarai, Cain and Seth married their sisters, and that was fine. It was lawful. The gene pool was very strong and it wasn't a problem. But as the human race degenerated after the fall of man, God ultimately outlawed the intermarriage of siblings when he gave the Levitical laws.

Iona