NW Folklife threatens street performers (Seattle)

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: John P
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:46 AM

I agree that buskers have the right to perform in public places.

I've been playing at Folklife for 27 years and have watched it go from the highpoint of my year to an almost impossible scene. I still play there because my band mates want to, because I feel nostalgia for it, and because I usually pick up some new fans. I don't, however, look forward to it or really enjoy it anymore.

When I started playing there, no one got paid and all the performers were from the Northwest. Some years back, major "stars" from elsewhere in the world started being allowed to play, and these stars were paid. This was a major slap in the face to the local musicians. I have watched the amount of care that is taken of the local musicians decrease every year.

The festival has turned into a generalized urban party where a large percentage of the attendees have no interest in folk music whatsoever. It's a free party on a sunny weekend . . .

I have a fairly wide definition of folk music, but the festial programmers apparently don't have ANY definition of folk music. Rap and rock, complete with full amplification, are intrusive and turn the festival into any other summer music festival -- why call it folk anymore?

There is an acre with hundreds of drummers playing full volume non-stop all day every day. Playing folk music in the face of that is almost pointless.

And as much as I like buskers and think they have a right to be there, they are a major pain in the ass. The place is lousy with them, from 50 little girls scratching on their violins to what looks like every professional busker on the West Coast. I don't know what the answer is, but I suspect the Festival gets as many complaints about them as they do about anything else. My biggest beef is that there is nowhere in the festival for a spontaneous jam session, which used to be my favorite thing about Folklife. Everywhere is blocking a path, right next to a stage, or filled with someone with their hat out. There are too many buskers to be functional.

I have thought for years that Folklife needs to move out of the city and off public land. The "free" festival is paid for by non-stop, non-stop, non-stop guilting everyone into making a donation. My understanding is that their contract with the city requires the festival to be free, but they still have to pay for the Seattle Center gounds. Who thought that was a functional economic model? It is bothersome that the festival exists because of local musicians who are playing for free and we get to watch everyone else in the place make money -- food vendors, craft people, and other performers who didn't sign up to perform.

Reggie, I have great respect for you as a person and a musician, but saying "nice try John" doesn't answer the question I posed earlier. I really am curious if you think it would be alright (as in legal) for a busker to work a wedding crowd. If so, why? If not, where do you draw the line?

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:01 AM

Reggie, you say that "no one was infringing on anyone else, in my case. Nor was anyone obstructing the public in my case." However your point, as I understand it, is that even if you had been doing this their action would still have been unlawful.

I cannot understand how it is possible to organise any large event without exercising some control over the people attending, whether they're the audience or performers. Otherwise the result would be at best chaos and at worst dangerous. However that is what you appear to be advocating.

Your argument appears to be that the First Amendment gives you the right to perform when and where you like without regard to what else is going on. Perhaps so, but all I'm saying is that if you're going to attend a large event life NWF (and take advantage of the crowds it attracts) then a bit of give and take is necessary, which may include accepting some measure of control by the organisers. Otherwise, the reductio ad absurdum is that the event itself is unconstitutional because it will inevitably infringe someone's rights.

As for the way you were treated, I'm not disagreeing with your version of events but,with respect, perhaps the NWF's representative saw the situation differently. Perhaps he used poor judgement in the situation, or perhaps he just liked to throw his weight around. Perhaps the police were called because he felt you were being confrontational, rather than because of your original "offence" against the rules. I don't know. However just because the rules may have been enforced incorrectly, unfairly, perhaps even unlawfully, doesn't mean that NWF is wrong to have some rules.

Incidentally, I see the "rules" also prohibit knives and firearms, so there goes the Second Amendment as well. That seems sensible to me too, but I'm from the UK where we think guns are a bad thing.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:15 AM

Is it a US thing that once you have the money you hang on like crazy.

You could argue is that the USA exists mainly because of an attempt to hold on to what were seen then then as very lucrative colonial properties. The citizens of the USA do not have a monopoly on hanging on to what they hold.

But in this case whatever the policies, those who were powered to enforce did not seem aware or if they did, they saw no reasons to follow them.

Perhaps there is at least some agreement that this is an area which needs to be improved?

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 May 10 - 01:04 AM

Howard Jones,

"leaving constitutional issues aside"

That's exactly what this event has done. They've tossed our constitutional rights in the trash for the sake of exercising their control over our rights.

"surely at any large event a bit of give and take is required to avoid performers infringing on each other or obstructing the public.'

My point exactly, no one was infringing on anyone else, in my case. Nor was anyone obstructing the public in my case. I understand that you weren't there and witness to what happened. You only have my words as evidence. I, however, have witnesses to exactly what went down.

My point is, that their security was entirely uninterested in give and take and apparently felt like bullying someone. NW Folklife's rules should not condone such behavior but they, nevertheless, allowed him to act with impunity by threatening me, intimidating me, and trying his best to trump up charges against me. Until finally, he just plain lied about me to justify police intervention.

But my concern goes beyond what happened to me at this event last year. It was about three weeks after Memorial Day 2009 that the court case was won, in favor of street performing being a protected First Amendment right on public property. That is my point.

You seem to have the opinion that, adults engaging in a time honored performance tradition, are somehow incapable of doing so responsibly without the malevolent oversight of a compassionless corporation enacting illegal legislation to restrict us in that endeavor. I'm of the mind that grownups playing folk music know how to behave themselves.

How is it that we can proudly uphold our Second Amendment right to bear arms in public spaces but somehow NW Folklife seems to think that dangerously unsafe folksingers have to be placed under their control for the safety of the public?

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Stewart
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:50 PM

rules of conduct
announced by the the Seattle Parks Superintendent
earlier this year. One of the proposed rules advocated by
the Superintendent, but rejected by the Park Board was
"no spitting on park property."

I don't see anything that Reggie was doing that is
prohibited by these rules, however constitutionally-questionable,
vaguely worded, or difficult-to-enforce they might be.

The issue here is how to promote common courtesy and
respect in a public space. Reggie is a good friend of mine
and I have high respect for his integrity and courteous behavior.
He's not about to play loud obnoxious music right next to
your wedding ceremony in a public park. But if he did,
you might want to reconsider having your wedding in the park,
or he might want to consider fleeing the wrath of others in the park.
It's all a matter of common courteous concern for others, and
strict legislation of behavior does not seem to be the answer.
As I understand it, from talking to Reggie and reading his posts,
Reggie was acting in a responsible and courteous manner. But the rules
were unbending, strictly speaking unconstitutional, and the
punishment did not fit the supposed crime.

Cheers, S. in Seattle
where politeness is above average

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 10 - 09:45 PM

"We bring a large crowd to Seattle Center for the Festival, which means that street performers have lots of people to entertain"

Am somewhat bemused by this oft experienced common arrogant attitude - that owing to the 'good heartedness' of the 'organisers', now the 'performers' have 'somewhere to go' for their own pleasure... haha :-)

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 06 May 10 - 09:17 PM

Nice try John but you can't compare apples and oranges here.

But if you are planning a wedding in a public park soon, allow me to insert this plug. I can play a beautiful version of the Wedding March (you know, Here Comes The Bride...) with my musical saw and have done so at a couple of matrimonial ceremonies. ;o)

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: John P
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:41 PM

Just a hypothetical question: If I paid the Seattle Parks Department a bunch of money to hold my wedding in a public park, would I have to allow a busker to play for my wedding guests?

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 10 - 02:50 PM

I've followed this with interest but haven't commented previously because I live in NW England, not NW USA, and certainly have no basis to comment on the US Constitution.

However it seems to me that the "rules" are sensible provisions to ensure the safety and enjoyment of everyone attending. Surely similar provisions have to be made for other public gatherings throughout the USA - how do they address the legal issues? How does any festival or other event taking place on public land ensure the public's and performers' safely without infringing someone's constitutional rights?

It occurs to me that if performers at NW Folklife were all to insist on their constitutional right to perform what they like, where they like, when they like, then it would become impossible to control health and safety and the event could not carry on.

The OP is pissed off because of the way he was treated at a previous festival. I don't know all the circumstances, so I can't comment on whether or not his anger is justified. But leaving constitutional issues aside (and I recognise how seriously these are taken), surely at any large event a bit of give and take is required to avoid performers infringing on each other or obstructing the public.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 06 May 10 - 02:10 PM

"Our guidelines have not changed—they are the same ones we have used for several years."

Just because they've gotten away with using them for "several years" doesn't make their "guidelines" legal in this country. In fact, some of their "guidelines" have been challenged in court and proven to be unconstitutional.

Because they have been breaking the law for "several years" they feel justified in continuing to do so!? There are a lot of corporate shenanigans that Wall Street has been using for "years" too. I suppose NW Folklife wants to tell us that those crooks had the right to bring millions to ruin as a result of their mismanagement. Or perhaps NW Folklife would like to defend Bernie Madoff's actions next. Because, after all, he used his tactics for "years" to rip off billions.

This is the very issue. These "guidelines" must change, in order to be in accordance with the law. On June 24th 2009, 8 out of 11 judges of the Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit have invalidated some of these "guidelines" and the NW Folklife Festival doesn't appear to believe that they have to comply with the Court's decisions on this matter. They are acting criminally by proposing that citizens of the United States have to follow their unconstitutional "guidelines". They are behaving criminally by refusing to recognize or obey the laws as described by the Court. They apparently don't feel as though they have to abide by the principles expressed in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

And the NW Folklife Festival wants to defend these actions, trashing our precious rights under the Constitution on Memorial Day weekend? It a slap in the face of every hero who bravely stepped forward to do his or her duty to defend this country and the principles it stands for. Their "guidelines" tread on the very fabric that makes this country great.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 05 May 10 - 11:16 AM

"We do not want to remove street performers from the Festival, unless they are in violation of the rules set in place by Seattle Center and Northwest Folklife. These rules provide for the safety and enjoyment of all who attend the Northwest Folklife Festival."

This strikes at the very heart of the matter. As previously pointed out, certain rules, that the city of Seattle was trying to enforce via the private company that the city hires to manage the Seattle Center were already deemed by the Court to be "unconstitutional" and yet NW Folklife has ignored the Court's ruling on the matter. They seem to deem themselves above the laws of the land.

Their rules are in direct violation of the what the Court has said are protected rights under the First Amendment, our freedom of expression. They are the ones who are in violation of law. The city of Seattle and the Seattle Center were already taken to task on this matter last June and they lost. The Court ruled in favor of those who perform on public property and not the city or those who manage the Center.

I love this country. I'm glad that we live in a country that recognizes the rights of their citizens and actively discourages corporations and cities from stealing away those rights. I'm astounded that private business entities like those who manage the Seattle Center would try to enact rules that restrict our First Amendment rights. The sad fact is, that they are not alone in their attempts to try to privatize public property and violate our rights to freedom of expression. Their actions are merely the tip of the iceberg.

The Court even awarded Mike, the fellow who challenged the rules, $20,000.

Now, NW Folklife is trying to pretend that the Court's decision didn't happen. They are feigning ignorance of the law and in so doing are stepping on the rights of all Americans under the First Amendment. If they're so intent on being petty dictators, why don't they simply go out and find their own piece of ground to do so, preferably, somewhere far away from this land of the free!

NW Folklife has drawn their rule book directly from that which the Seattle Center tried to use and then added many more restrictions, "for the safety and enjoyment of all who attend." This statement is simply hogwash with regard to what happened to me last year. No one's "safety" was threatened by my presence and many were enjoying my presence there but their enjoyment was cut short when the head of NW Folklife's security walked up to me to threaten me, intimidate me and ultimately have me forcibly removed from the event by the police.

Playing folk music is not a criminal offense, unless you happen to be playing it at the NW Folklife Festival! Criminalizing freedom of expression is against the law! If whoever posted the post above as GUEST Northwest Folklife had a pair they wouldn't have posted as an anonymous GUEST and would have addressed the actual issues here instead of spouting PR BS. The only reason they didn't do so is because they haven't got a legal leg to stand on.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: stallion
Date: 05 May 10 - 03:41 AM

I thought I had little to contribute but this has given me an insight into some of the fundamental differences between British subjects and US citizens. The New York Met. Museum is, I assume free, but a recommended donation is asked for and no one seems to mind paying it. Is it really a british thing that requires some order needs to be maintained, like queing, to avoid chaos. Is it a US thing that once you have the money you hang on like crazy. Surely freedom, broadly speaking, in the sense of what it meant in framing the US constitution, was the freedom to own and aquire property (including slaves) without the intervention of government. Does anyone consider that personal freedoms may impinge on someone else's freedom? Somehow, to me, the majority of US citizens are too far right to be assosciated with Anarchists and yet that is what is being advocated, bring it on! As for big business, this festival is small beans, address bigger issues like being robbed blind by the very rich and stop squabbling over peanuts, cos that is what it is. So citizens see a business opportunity and grab and hold on like alligators and subjects see a business opportunity and regulate it. ( We tried de-regulation and look at the bother that got us into) OK people have livings to make but I do have issues with buskers at "free" festivals, that is a brit thing, like tipping and paying twice and paying when it is free..........oh and one other thing............no stop where I am ...nearly tripped over a hornets nest!

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 05 May 10 - 02:52 AM

The problems of particular event in question are partly due to pretty bad PR. Improving this may lead to the solution of the many issues highlighted and some direct input from the organisers here is welcome.

However, the larger issue remains.

It is fairly easy to have a policy which deals with festival vendors but it must be a different policy with one to deal with street performers, for this is not the same animal.

Vendors have a product to sell on conventional terms. They don't just turn up and present the product of their talents to potential customers simply in the hope that the customer may provide them with an amount on money of the customer's choosing. For they would soon run out of their wares........

But this is what street performers do and a policy which does not recognise this is a poor one which will threaten the long-term future of the event.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: open mike
Date: 05 May 10 - 01:37 AM

what policy is there regarding performers selling recordings?
I am glad that someone who appears to be with the organization has joined the conversation.I hope there can be a positive conclusion reached before the event which is a few weeks away.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Deckman
Date: 04 May 10 - 08:14 PM

WELL WELL WELL ... If nothing else, Reggie Miles has finally got the attention of the Northwest Folk Festival administration ... PUBLICLY!

GOOD FOR YOU REGGIE.

My response to the administrations is this ... WHAT A BUNCH OF PR crap!

You folks treated him VERY WRONGLY last year and NOW you need to correct it.

The only way, in my opinion, that you can make it right is to publicly apoligize, give him a proper stage this year and ... A HUNDRED BUCKS! BOB NELSON

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,Northwest Folklife
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:16 PM

Confusion re: Street Performing at the Northwest Folklife Festival.

Street performers add life and color to the Northwest Folklife Festival. Our guidelines have not changed—they are the same ones we have used for several years. We suggest that street performers donate a portion of their proceeds back to the Festival in a show of support. This is done on the honor system. Our Festival staff pass out donation envelopes to street performers, and it is up to them whether or not to put in a portion of any contributions they may receive. We do not report any street performing activities to the IRS.

Northwest Folklife and street performers have a symbiotic relationship. We bring a large crowd to Seattle Center for the Festival, which means that street performers have lots of people to entertain. Conversely, street performers contribute to the fun, festive atmosphere, and many Festival-goers cite the street performers as one of their favorite parts of the Festival. We do not want to remove street performers from the Festival, unless they are in violation of the rules set in place by Seattle Center and Northwest Folklife. These rules provide for the safety and enjoyment of all who attend the Northwest Folklife Festival.

If anyone on the message board has a question about Northwest Folklife's policies, please give us a call at 206.684.7300 or contact us via email at [e-mail]. We're happy to talk with you any time.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 May 10 - 03:54 AM

What a fascinating thread. The Northwest Folklife Festival in its present incarnation is... my idea of hell. I've never been to a folk or any other festival in all my years of playing mainly because I'm an impatient old curmudgeon who hates the hassle of parking, queuing, crowds, noise and people, etc. Sad, innit? Just a touch of enochlophobia (fear of large crowds), I'm afraid.

From Mudcat threads on folk festivals in the UK, I can understand the appeal of meeting old friends, seeing great acts and enjoying the "festival" experience, but events of that size have never actually appealed to me. Having said that, I'm being escorted in chains to the Warwick Festival this year to help Alan Day to run an afternoon session there - and I must say I'm rather dreading and yet looking forward to the experience!

The change of style of the NW Folklife Festival from a rather free-wheeling and serendipitous event to a hugely complex business-driven corporate-style event seems to be a disease that can affect so many festivals.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 May 10 - 12:31 AM

Mousethief, we use it as an excuse to visit old friends in the Seattle area...mostly folkdancers. Personally, I mostly sit in the beer garden in the Northwest Court when I'm not dancing.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: mousethief
Date: 03 May 10 - 10:48 PM

I wonder that any traditional folkies still go there. It would be better to have an alternate festival in another location. Call it the Acoustic Folk Festival or something, I don't know. You'd get a different breed of audience, and a lot fewer of course, but then maybe not fewer that actually sit in the audience for each act -- more trad folk people might be tempted to come if the surroundings weren't so miserable.

I haven't been in 10 years and at that time the noise bleed wasn't too bad. There were no Taiko drummers (I would certainly have known), at least during the times I was there. But the crowds were already miserable.

Taiko drumming indoors can make your ears ring for hours.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,oggie
Date: 03 May 10 - 04:35 PM

Yes , I admit it. I divide Festivals into two categories. There are those that I attend as a punter, with instruments, to enjoy the festival, see acts, join a session, have a drink (or three) and a good time. There are the others where I am working, I don't take instruments and I don't expect to see any acts, I am there to earn my living, it's my job.

Now Reggie also seems to be there to earn money, OK it's a gamble, and he does contribute but given the complaint about licences and "donations" that seems to be the bottom line. This is where we, I hope on friendly terms, part company.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 10 - 04:16 PM

Thanks, Art! The name rings a small bell somewhere, but would I recognize you if we met?

####

For those who don't know what Taiko drumming is,   CLICKY.

This is amazing stuff, and I love to watch and hear it. It really stirs the blood when you hear these guys go at it!

But when you're on a stage maybe three-quarters of a block away, trying to sing your allotted half-hour's worth of songs and ballads to the accompaniment of an acoustic guitar while these folks are giving it their all, well. . . .

Someone doing the scheduling just ain't thinkin'.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Genie
Date: 03 May 10 - 03:41 PM

I agree that the Folklife Festival has gotten too big, too all-encompassing as to what "folk" means, too commercialized, and TOO LOUD.    I also agree that when a musician like Reggie is forceably removed from a location that was not blocking foot traffic or when threats are made to report people to the IRS, that's too heavy handed.

Still, the Folklife people do pay big bucks to rent space for the festival and the scheduled performers are volunteers (who pay the Festival a cut of any CDs they sell), plus the walkways are already hard to navigate because of the crowds, even without the addition of street performers every few feet.   (In many cases, the open instrument case pushes the bystander audience farther away, thus interfering with the walkway traffic even more. I often cut between the performer and the assembled audience because it's too cumbersome and time-consuming to go around that crowd.) I empathize a lot with the volunteer performers who find other, non-scheduled musicians competing with them and getting paid by donations or selling their CDs without giving the Festival organizers a cut.

You can't deny that whatever a busker takes in in tips at the festival is at least partly due to the crowds drawn to the Seattle Center by the festival itself and its advertising.    If that weren't the case, why wouldn't most of those buskers be at the Seattle Center the week before or the week after Folklife?

There are spaces outside the Folklife "gates" where there are always many unauthorized street vendors and performers, and I don't know if they get hassled for being there, but they don't interfere with the movement of the crowds as much.

Reggie, I've never known you to be one of the buskers who creates a bottleneck along the walkways or who makes so much noise that it interferes with other performers (scheduled or not scheduled).       But many of them do, and I can appreciate why the Festival organizers and the Seattle Center "cops" try to control that.

As for buskers being paid for what scheduled performers do free, maybe there should be tip jars at the front of each stage so the scheduled performers could get donations too.   It wouldn't solve the excess noise problem (which I think would be helped by turning down the amps on most of the stages to a mild roar) or the traffic interference, but it would be fairer.      

And I would hope that all those who made money by performing would contribute 10% or so of the take to the Festival for providing such a huge audience.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 03 May 10 - 03:40 PM

Walk a mile in my shoes...

oggie

A walk in your shoes to this festival would be quite plainly one where I attending in order to earn money.

Reggie is walking there for quite another purpose and if he and others were not prepared to do this - the simple fact is that there would not be anyone attracted that you and your fellow vendors could earn money from.

Nothing wrong with vendors or with earning money of course but perhaps not everything should be seen in these terms.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 May 10 - 03:01 PM

Ithink it is the crowd situation that makes the directors want to control the busking. THere are huge numbers of childen, cute and quite talented, but there are just so manyof them, and it is a situation of ..well, Katy made $200 at folklife so let's do it next year with Jeff and he can put it toward his college fund...the children and teens alone could really escalate..

I think one answer might just be to have quite a few weekends or weekedays per summer or whenever set aside for busking..or allow it when crowds are not expected to be massive, and frankly dangerous (and don't get me started on pit bulls at the face level of a baby in a stoller)...

I think it is a safety issue first and foremost and would love to see other venues or prehaps a set aside area off the beaten track for buskers...but this is a crowd that is just a jam of people...

So, as an omniist, I am for it except for safety issues, which are major. If safe places can be found for geometrically increasing numbers of buskers, including huge numbers of teens and children, great.

But don't shed a tear for people who sing and play for free. It is their pleasure to do so and no one is depriving them of anything. It is quite voluntary and in fact competitive. mg

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 May 10 - 02:43 PM

And I was at that concert, and I appreciated your effort!

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 10 - 02:35 PM

Leeneia, I don't know where you are or if you have ever had an opportunity to attend a Northwest Folklife Festival. But for the entire three-day weekend, one hears a whole variety of things such as rock bands complete with amplification, drumming—LOTS of drumming, notable African, Native American, and Taiko (the big drums that you can hear for miles)—and just about every other kind of musical or semi-musical endeavor, and this is coming at you from all sides. As to one busker playing in Eb and a nearby one playing in A, half the time the ambient din is so great that distinguishing between keys and noting dissonances is impossible, because it's totally lost in the general dissonance.

Sometimes you can hear the drumming from a few miles away! Across Lake Union and up on Capitol Hill, for example. From the viewpoint of a singer official scheduled and on a stage--especially on one of the outside stages accompanying herself with an accoustic guitar, or some unaccompanied ballad-singer, he or she is trying to compete with a general din that verges on the deafening.

Not only that, there is a general crowd noise. The Northwest Folklife Festival is usually attended by 200,000 to 250,000 people, generally milling around in the 17 acres of open space on the 74 acre Seattle Center campus. I was an active participant in these festivals early on: official, scheduled, and on stage. But the event has become so cumbersome that, to me, it's no longer much fun. And unless there is someone performing that I particularly want to hear, I don't go anymore. The last few times I attended, I was trying to navigate my way around in an electric wheelchair. I don't know how many times I wound up with someone in my lap because they were trying to see over other people's heads and didn't even see me there. Shouting a warning didn't work, because due to the general background roar, they couldn't hear me.

No, unless I am asked to participate in a particular workshop or performance, I don't subject myself to this mob scene. Especially when on that entire 74 acres, if you want to hear any actual traditional folk music, it is generally confined to the meeting rooms up in the northwest corner of the Center grounds.

I have to take my hat off to people like Reggie, who have the guts to get out there and try to add some genuine traditional music to this event, and add it in a way, like the minstrel who sings to any and all in the village square in the hope that a few people might drop a few coppers in his hat. And that kind of performing has been traditional for well over a thousand years.

Don Firth

P. S. Leeneia, my comments here are not just aimed at you, but at those who may have never been to this pit of chaos we call the "Northwest Folklife Festival" and don't know what bucking those crowds amid the general din is really like—or what it's like to brave the whole thing and try to actually offer something the way Reggie does.

P. P. S. But to be fair to the Powers That Be, when I was asked to participate in the Coffeehouse Reunion Concert ("Geezer's Concert") in the 2003 festival, they'd heard I was using a wheelchair, so they offered to send a "pusher" to meet me at a specified entrance so I wouldn't have to "hand crank" my way to the designated area. But I must add, this particular event was masterminded by the late John Ross, so there was some genuine thought behind it.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,oggie
Date: 03 May 10 - 02:16 PM

I've come to this late and can see where both sides are coming from. However to just put the vendors point of view.

Walk a mile in my shoes...

Sometime in advance of any festival you make an application for a space and send a rather large cheque (which helps fund the event). You have almost no control over where you are pitched and if it's up a blind alley that's your problem and loss. It is possible you won't get a pitch at all (and may not be told until the last minute) in which case you either have to hope there's somewhere else to do or not earn anything that weekend.

The weather is out of your control, if it's bad you can't just stay at home, you've already paid. If it's part of a tour you may even already be there. So some hours before most people are up (or even the day before) you set up your stall and stock it. At some events you may even have to take down at the end of each day and put up again each morning, eighteen hour days are not uncommon. At some events you have to sleep with the stall for security.

At this point, just like the street performer, you are casting bread upon the waters, maybe you'll sell maybe not. If the organisers have had problems letting space you may find that half the vendors are selling the same sort of line (thank God I'm not a jeweller). Some you win, some you lose. The best hope is that over the season you make a living, many don't.

I would point out that vendors cannot just turn up and trade (even without a cover) if they did they too would be escorted away pretty sharpish (and might have their stock confiscated). A case in point is Sidmouth where there has been a crackdown on vendors trying to use a perceived (but actually non-existant) loophole to trade on the promenade. Even to trade (without covers) on a city street in the UK requires a Street Trading License from the Local Authority, in most places they're like rocking horse droppings.

So that's part of the walk in the vendors' shoes.

The big difference that I see is that the vendors are contributing financially to the running of the event as well as to the public's the experience of it. The street performers are contributing to the experience of it but not contributing financially even though the best of them may well be doing as well as many of the vendors.

As a Brit I have a number of issues with the interpretation of the US Constitution (a recent ruling that making and distributing videos of animal cruelty was protected under Free Speech provisions being one) so I probably attach less importance to this aspect of the argument than I should.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:31 AM

Perhaps it is difficult for those who are not used to the concept but those who may choose on occasion to exercise their talents for their own pleasure and who will obtain additional pleasure if this can at the same time also provides pleasure to others, do struggle against a world that seems only to be able to deal with commercial concepts.

Thus it is that in the UK, we have to deal with officials who find the concept equally strange and who are instructed from above by those who will talk for ever with politicians and set up expensive quangos which will talk endlessly about the benefits of culture, funding and of a music INDUSTRY!

Music of course is so much more than simply this.

Thus Reggie is accused here of being mean-spirited and of playing the system...................

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:18 AM

"We are talking about people who are exercising a right to perform in a public space"

Wait a minute. What do you mean by 'public space.' Anybody's space? That is not the case. That park is paid for by somebody, probably the taxpayers of the city or county. It is THEIR park.

It was voted for by the people for their enjoyment and edification. Having to walk through it while one person plays in Eb and the next person plays in A, all however loudly they wish, is not what they had in mind.

Read the rules. They are fair and reasonable. Even given the rules, it sounds like hell, based on Deckman's description. You will not find me, a person with keen hearing, anywhere near it.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 03 May 10 - 10:19 AM

GUEST Steve, yes, I've played on the grounds of the Seattle Center throughout the year and have, as always, have received wonderful responses to my efforts at offering folk music with my folk instruments while there.

GUEST Davis S., there's no whining going on here. I'm just trying to stand up for my "rights" as described in the First Amendment. I don't play the system. I play assorted stringed instruments, harmonica, musical saw and washboard percussion, if so inclined. I don't have to play "the system", as you call it.

Generations of Americans have fought and died to establish this way of life. You do believe in American citizens exercising their Constitutional rights in this country, don't you? Perhaps you are among those who don't believe that we should have the right to exercise our Constitutional rights on public property, during our country's national holiday, Memorial Day. I am grateful and thankful for the sacrifices made by so very many to offer me this way of life. I treasure my Constitutional rights. Apparently, you don't hold these rights in such high regard. That is your right to feel that way.

I should also point out that this particular event started out as a folk "music" festival that grew to include vendors. It wasn't a vendor event that just happened to eventually include some musical acts.

Lets' make the distinctions clear. Vendors vend. Vending is telling folks, "If you give me $, I'll give you what I have." Street performing is giving away what you have freely. Those that experience what it is that street performer folks do in public spaces also have the Constitutional right to support it in any way they see fit.

Perhaps you believe that those who support street performing are also playing "the system" by doing so. I'd have to agree. They are getting free entertainment, not corporate controlled vended entertainment. Is it any wonder why folks love to support what is freely offered with their applause, smiles, thumbs up, accolades, and yes even dollars.

Well, perhaps, if the shoe were placed squarely on the other foot, you'd be singing a different tune.

Let's play a little game. I call it, "walk a mile in my shoes". Imagine for a moment, that you vendor folks were only allowed to do what the music folks have done for years to establish this event. That is, offer, for free, what it is that you create as your livelihood. (Actually, now that I think about it, I have never been to a craft event, that was established by a bunch of craft folks, who offered their crafts for free, in the same way performance folks offer their entertainment crafts freely but for the sake of this little game, let's pretend that it's possible that such a thing could happen.) Imagine, you could only accept donations, from those who might wish to offer them, in support of what you do as a craft person but you were limited by the same rules that this event uses to restrict street performers. (Check the link in my post above to see that set of rules.)

Imagine not having the right to offer what you do in the shade of a covered walkway, while the same event allowed such access to shade and shelter from rain to every musical performer on the grounds. Note too, in the rules, that you would not be allowed to set up any kind of structure to protect yourself from the elements, like the rain that often frequents this event. (Yep, check the rules. That rule is in there too.)

And imagine what you would feel like if you had some weekend security geeks trump up charges and lies to demonize your efforts at offering your crafts in this way, for free, on the grounds. Then, try to imagine having four police officers escort you off the grounds of this public space and having them tell you that you were not welcomed back for the remainder of the event.

I know it's probably not an easy thing to imagine the above, especially if you're used to following the path of being a vendor and doing all of what that approach to vending your crafts might entail. Now, imagine that someone responded to what happened to you by telling you, in so many words, that none of the lives that were sacrificed by all of those many thousands, to afford you your right to offer your crafts in that manner, meant squat. Imagine that.

The game is over. I hope you enjoyed playing along in this version of, "walk a mile in my shoes."

I can only imagine what those, who have given their lives to protect this way of life, would say to you if they were still around to hear you relate how little their sacrifice has meant to you.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: ChanteyMatt
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:23 PM

I seldom weigh in on such a touchy subject, but as a musician, I'm tired of being "allowed" to play and "allowed" to put out a tip jar. Not just for the First Amendment but for free enterprise not hampered by arbitrary and whimsical laws.

Seattle Folklife Festival (SFF) is too big, too vague and too full of it'self. Busking at SFF used to be the consolation prize for not getting chosen. Now days, I don't go to Folklife. I go to the Juan de Fuca Festival. SFF isn't the end all of festivals. I garauntee you'll have more fun at smaller events and they'll at least cover your travel.

Isn't exposing yourself illegal?

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 10 - 09:28 PM

David S., I assume by your "accent" that you are British and have probably never been to a Northwest Folklife Festival (Seattle, WA, USA).

I hardly think that Reggie is the one who is "playing the system to their advantage." Thousands—yes, thousands—of singers from all around the area, including western Canada, come to the festival at their own expense. Nobody gets paid. They are donating their time—singing for free. Some are scheduled and sing on the performance stages. Others are busking. And many folks do both, often busking in the hope of picking up a dime or two to offset their own expenses, incurred by coming to sing at the festival in the first place.

This is hardly "playing the system." If anyone is "playing the system," it's those who are actually making fairly large chunks of money off the festival and getting the performers to do it for no compensation, other than simply a chance to perform. The performers, like Reggie, are the ones who make the whole thing possible in the first place.

And the Northwest Folklife Festival is one of the events that the city values, because it draws a fair amount of tourist trade to the city. Local hotels and motels, restaurants, and other tourist facilities profit by it. And pay business tax to the city.

And Reggie is hardly "whinging." He's making a legitimate complaint. The cavalier and shabby manner that some of those who run the festival often treat the performers is an example of biting the hand of the one who feeds you. I've sung at a number of these festivals, and even when scheduled and on stage, a number of times I've had to butt heads with officious twits who were on some sort of "power trip."

To paraphrase a slogan that came from the Sixties anti-war movement, "Suppose they gave a war festival and nobody came?"

Lots of "entrepreneurs" get people to sing for nothing by telling them, "The exposure will be good for you." Dave Van Ronk had a good answer for that:   "People have been known to die of exposure."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 10 - 06:42 PM

Sorry but as a "craft vendor" who has to pay (up front, a fixed amount with no guarentee of return) to ply my trade at such events, I see a someone who wants to play the system to their advantage and is whinging when they can't.

David S.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 10 - 05:58 PM

Doesn't really matter whether people play there all through the year or not.

Doesn't really matter whether they contribute to the festival in any other way or not.

We are talking about people who are exercising a right to perform in a public space, under the laws pertaining in their country.

I don't suppose that many of them actually leave without donating something to the festival funds.

What really matters is that they should be free to decide whether, and how much, they will donate.

They should not be coerced into complying, nor should extortion be permitted.

The bottom line is that, if some of them are too mean to contribute, under the terms of the US Constitution they do have the right to be that mean.

As somebody remarked above, if the organisers want to control the buskers, they should hold the Festival on private land.

Don T.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 10 - 05:29 PM

Do you play at that venue the rest of the year or are you there simply because the Festival brings in a crowd?

Steve

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Deckman
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:39 AM

This might be a bit long:

The events that Reggie describes are very true, he's NOT exaggerating.
I want to bring us back, for a moment, to 1962 when Seattle hosted the "World's Fair." It was a great success and a fun time. We all went, particpated, felt proud of our city and good about ourselves.

In a sense, this 1962 event was the forerunner of the present "Pacific Northwest Folk Festival", as it gave Seattleites a taste of what fun festival a can be. And in the early years, they were fun events, a great focus on music and dance and folk arts and crafts. And the atmosphere was one of welcoming the various artists and celebrating their talents.

Unfortunatly now, that has mostly changed. The present "festival" reeks of commercialism, food stalls overcrowding everywhere, performance stages jammed so close together that one's music drowns out anothers', drummers allowed to set up anywhere and break up everyone's music.

Over the last ten years, or so, I have watched as greater numbers of the better musicians have dropped out. Nowdays when I think of the "festival" I feel sad because so much good has been lost.

As Reggie has said, for many, many years he has supported this festival in many ways, including being a non-paid stage performer and workshop teacher. Because of what the festival did to him last year, I'm quite certain that the everlasting taste in Reggie mouth is quite unpleasant ... it sure is in mine. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: MAG
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:48 AM

When I was in Chicago I busked, and the city required a permit for all street performers. I wasn't the only one getting a significant chunk of my income from it and none of us minded registering.

If buskers are there taking advantage of the crowwds coming for the fest they need to follow the rules, such as NOT BLOCKING TRAFFIC.

Each of us says the same thing every year,and none of our minds are going to change.

I didn't go for a period of ywears because of the people choking every pathway and shortcut.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:13 AM

How much $ does NW Folklife get from just those who are vendors at the event? After looking at the application fees multiplied by the number of craft and food vendors that they allow to be featured at the festival, my calculator says, somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000. That's not counting the 15% that they ask from each vendor, determined by the amount of merchandise they sell. That seems like a healthy chunk of change and that's just from the vendors at this event.

Then, if you add what they collect from their various charitable contributors, like Paul G. Allen, Boeing, The National Endowment for the Arts, Q13, The Seattle Times, Comcast, 4 Culture, Arts & Cultural Affairs, Tully's Coffee, Western WA Toyota, Trex, Bridgeport Ales, Pepsi, BECU, Penguin Windows, WA Lottery, Dave's Bread, The NY Times, Deschutes Brewery, and a few others, I have to wonder why they see fit to force street performers to pay a fee at all. What? Is Paul Allen down on his luck and therefore can't offer them enough $? Has the Washington State Lottery suddenly gone bust because they haven't sold enough Lotto tickets and can't afford to share their wealth? Has Boeing gone broke and decided to quit building planes? Or has Pepsi sales been off? Has Toyota fallen on hard times? Nowhere on their site do they indicate what amounts any these contributors offer to the event. I think what Don said earlier is right. This is Big Business.

McGrath of Harlow, does the concept of freedom of expression mean nothing to you? Do you reside in the USA? This event is happening on public property, a public park. The Court specifically stated that you cannot commercialize "public" property and deny our First Amendment right to freedom of expression. Being mean spirited has nothing to do with it.

If you want to talk about being mean spirited, let's talk about why I was evicted from this public park, during a national holiday, by public officials, (the SPD) for offering free music at this free festival. They used police "force" against me to have me forcibly removed. I harmed no one during my 1/2 hour set of music. I put smiles on the faces of everyone standing before me. Let's point the finger of blame in the right direction.

Mind you, they've already received several decades of my time, talents and energy in support this event. It's not as though I'm some stranger who just walked into the event and has never offered anything in return. I've put in my time performing on their stages and I've hosted free workshops there for years. Even my performances as a street performer are offering my time, energy and talents for free at this event. Either way, whether on their stages, or via my efforts at entertaining casually on the grounds, they still have had the benefit of my talents featured at their event for free. They pay me nothing. Are you trying to equate my time talents and energy as being worth nothing? Would you like me to quote you what some other, truly supportive, events have offered me for my time, talents and energy?

I believe that this perception is part of the problem. This event has had the luxury of so many years of talented individuals offering their entertainment for free, that they deem that talent as having no actual value and that's exactly how the folks, who donate their time to this event, are treated by this event. The event sees dollar signs ($$$) when they see a food or craft vendor application arrive in their mail box.

Do you think that maybe that's why those vendors aren't being harassed for causing traffic issues? Do think that maybe that's why they are allowed to do what musical folks are being demonized for doing? And not just demonized but in my case, I actually had the head of security call for 4 Seattle Police to have me escorted off the grounds, because I dared to sit in the shade and entertain about a dozen folks, at their behest, for free, for about one half hour, on a sunny Sunday.

artbrooks, some of the same areas on the grounds of the Seattle Center where street performers are demonized for trying to play (like I was last year for playing underneath a covered walkway at the far northern edge of the event) are somehow miraculously and magically deemed by the event coordinators and their security staff, as just fine for craft vendors to crowd with their booths and cause huge traffic issues. No one says boo to them for creating traffic issues in the covered walkways. In my case, I created no such traffic issue, whatsoever, but that was the flimsy excuse that the head of Folklife security used to harass me and ultimately get me ousted from the event. The only difference is that the craft folks are paying hundreds of dollars to the event. Because of the fees they pay, they are allowed to crowd those same covered walkways and create actual traffic issues.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 10 - 01:01 AM

On reading the decision, you are correct...Rule 5, which the OP refers to as Rule 3, was remanded. That part of the case appears to still be open.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:44 AM

IvanB, as I read the appeals court ruling, they said that the location rule was reasonable, but that they were not making any determination as to its constitutionality. Also remember, this case involves one performer and the ruling premises an essentially empty Seattle Center - hardly the case during Folklife.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: IvanB
Date: 01 May 10 - 11:02 PM

artbrooks, do you have a reference for your statement that the "location" rule was not overturned? As I read the appeals court ruling, the trial court rejected all five rules and the appeals court only remanded the location rule back for review. I see nothing in the links which have been presented here to indicate whether such review ever took place and, if so, whether the original decision was reversed as pertaining to that rule.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Deckman
Date: 01 May 10 - 10:12 PM

I would also like to try focus on what I consider one of the more important aspects of this sick tale ... WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH "FOLK MUSIC"?

I'll answer my own question ... NOTHING! What it has to do with is teeny, tiny people who consider themselves so VERY OMNIPOTENT that they feel they can dictate to the world.

Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 May 10 - 08:24 PM

It must take considerable effort to so totally miss the important point being made here and to choose only to address the less important nit-picking detail. Not that this is surprising.

It is almost as if regulation and restriction for its own sake had some merit which needed to be celebrated. To pick and choose one's freedoms is not an option that is open to us as that course can only lead to the end of them all.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 May 10 - 08:12 PM

There may have been a time when it wasn't so crowded at Folklife that there was room for anyone to set up anywhere he wanted, play for the enjoyment of the multitudes, and make a few bucks at the same time. I'm not sure that was true when I left Seattle in 1979 and I'm certain that it wasn't by the time we left the Northwest for good (except for the occasional visit) in 1987. Restricting buskers as to where they may perform (and that rule was not overturned by the court's decision)seems to me to be a good idea, considering that the entire city seems to be on the Center's grounds on a nice Folklife day. The threat to fink out non-complying buskers to the IRS, if true, is entirely out of line, of course.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 10 - 07:59 PM

For a busker at a non-profit folk-festival to begrudge letting the festival have a share of their takings seems remarkably mean-spirited. There shouldn't need to be any question of the organisers feeling they have to try to oblige them to do so.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 May 10 - 07:47 PM

Well said Reggie.

I am constantly surprised at how little valued these hard-won freedoms now appear to be in practice. And not only am I surprised at how easily they are taken away but at how those affected appear to be so willing to try to find excuses for those who would try to justify their removal.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 01 May 10 - 07:11 PM

This looks a new case for Folk Against Fascism . . . .
Somebody please send me an application form.

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: reggie miles
Date: 01 May 10 - 07:05 PM

I find it morally disgusting that their little non-profit organization, on Memorial Day weekend, the one weekend out of the year that we honor the sacrifices of those who have given their lives to defend the rights and freedoms that we enjoy in this country, would treat those freedoms like they are a privilege that we should have to pay them to enjoy. The right to practice these freedoms, like our right to freedom of expression and freedom of speech has already been paid for in blood. I am outraged that their little non-profit organization would disgrace and dishonor the sacrifices, of all those Americans who have fought and died to protect our precious freedoms and rights, by suggesting that they have the right to charge me a fee to exercise my rights as described in the First Amendment of our Constitution. I am further appalled by how blatantly their little non-profit organization has completely ignored the decision of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit on this specific matter of exercising our rights to freedom of expression on public property. Does their lack of respect for the American way of life, our Constitutional rights and the sacrifices of countless Americans know no bounds?

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:54 PM

I've heard (dunno if it's true or not) that during the Folklife Festival, some buskers find better pickin's down at the Pike Place Market. Everybody else is up at the Seattle Center grounds.

Oops! Maybe that's supposed to be a secret!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: NW Folklife threatens street performers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:17 PM

So the suggestion is that buskers during a festival should be expected to give some unspecified part of their takings to the festival?

Seems pretty fair. I'd imagine the folkie crowd would only be there to provide the takings because there's a festival - and I'd suspect a lot of people wold assume that the busking was a fundraising effort anyway.

That IRS threat sounds a bit out of order - but surely it'd be a bluff? Pretty hard to prove anything, even if the Revenue were particularly interested. And going on record as promising not to report buskers who gave them a cut of the takings would appear to put the organisers in a pretty dodgy legal position anyway.