BS: ICE - the winter kind

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: CamiSu
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:38 AM

All you lucky people who could post during the storm....

My 2 exchange students (who had never seen much, if any, snow) brought a 3rd home Thursday evening as a snow day was expected. We got it as well as a loss of power. My wireless modem requires power to work and there was none of that. My stone house has very good insulation we put in when we bought it and again after the fire...

With a wood stove in the kitchen, gas stove I can start with a match, and good humor we managed 36 or so hours of no power. Temp in the house proper got down to 57 last I looked, and Saturday was warm and sunny. They were saying 4 days, then 2 days and then here came the trucks! I told them my pole had wires dangling. They fixed the guy wires but neglected to see that the neutral was hanging loose and powered up the neighborhood.

The smell was immediate. I was looking for fire in the walls and Sinan (my Turkish kid) was trying to find the source of the smell upstairs (it was pretty much all over) and we found the attic full of smoke. While I was looking in the kneewall space the TV began to smoke. I turned on the bathroom light and it was WAY too bright, which clued me in to what was happening. By the time I was all powered down (forgot about the 200amp main just below the meter) I had lost the TV, the laser printer, the micro-convection oven, 2 refrigerators, a computer (there isn't a surge protector in the world that can handle a steady 200 volts for 5 minutes), said surge protector, the portable phone set, the modem, and more. Almost lost Fabio when he touched a switch and it bit him. Very scary. And the power company says it won't pay my deductible. I say it will.

The trees were fabulous, and the boys had a wonderful time. Actually it was all great (playing hearts by candlelight 'til 1:30 am!) until the power came back on. And I was driving through my little town on my way home Saturday night (not expecting to get my service back til Monday) and saw every truck in eastern Vermont at a restaurant (in a town of 1100). I asked them if I could get my neutral fixed and a crew came down when they were done with dinner. Had my power back at 11:15 Saturday! I did feel very blessed there as I had work to do for the Sunday service and needed my computer to make it easier. But I now must replace appliances and so on. But my new modem got here yesterday so I am back!

Whew!

Hope everyone else is doing better. Vermont was down to fewer than 2000 people without electricity this morning. And now real snow. Yes!

CamiSu

Why won't this post?!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:47 PM

So good to hear from you, Linn and Tom!! Wasn't it you who taught me this would be just another AFGO?**BG** Seriously, really glad you are both safe and okay. You, too, Jeri!

gnu, you are a handy fellow and a very kind friend. As to idjit drivers, we have them here, too. Though we don't get that much ice or snow, a lot of folks are retirees from California, southern climes, so they either completely freak out and drive 5mph causing problems, or they think nothing of it, hit a skid and topple themselves and some other unlucky soul over...and we all hope not fatally! The others are kids who should know better. Most of them don't know the word "Caution!"

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:54 PM

this is a different world to mine - yesterday I had ice in my glass of water at an outdoor Christmas lunch. Pleasant warm (not yet hot & humid) day in early summer Sydney. My winter in inner-city Sydney entails the occasional use of a small heater, an 80% down quilt at night, with medium fleece waistcoat & jacket in the day. I only discovered thermal underwear 2 years ago, & normally only wear them when I leave Sydney for cooler climates where it's close to freezing overnight!

As my brother said when he was in UK 25 years ago, with 2" snow on the top of his car when he woke, "sandra, you wouldn't like it here."

best wishes to all for resumption of normal services

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:37 PM

Great to here you and Tom made out okay!

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:31 PM

Ayuh, builds character...but I thought I was enough of a character already!

Power came back on at 4:15 -- yeehah!

Six days (and nights, fer-pete's-sake) without electricity, phone, running water, Mudcat!, etcet.

We actually fared better than most people without power -- we normally heat with wood, so not having the furnace available wasn't a hardship and we were comfortably warm and Tom could cook up an incredible venison stew on Sunday utilizing the venison steaks and some nice sausage that otherwise would have been lost in the warming freezer. I used the last of the water (that I'd been carefully husbanding) in the holding tank to wash my hair on Sunday, so have been completely dependent on storebought gallons of water since. Since we have a composting toilet, we didn't have to worry about water for flushing.

Coffee was a problem for Tom, of course, and the only real crisis was when he discovered Saturday morning that in the low light of the generator-provided electricity at Market Basket on Friday, he'd inadvertently picked up DE-CAF coffee bags instead of the real thing.

We had a TracFone since the end of September, so had emergency phone contact, too, so the situation was never dire and just annoying.

Couldn't get to work on Friday thanks to downed branches and wires in the driveway, and when Tom got out later (turned out to be Comcast line disconnected from the pole in the driveway), no gas station for miles around had power so couldn't fill my car's tank. Went to Pizza Spinners early in the evening -- they were running on generator. It was like the bar scene in "Star Wars" while waiting for our pizza in the heatless but heavily populated shop.

Lee Circle got power restored by 11:30 Friday night, so I got real coffee bags for Tom on m way to work, then fed gas to the car on the other side of the circle and finally made it full circle to McDonald's for breakfast on my way to work. Fox Run Mall (I work at Sears Optical) never lost power, but Optical's direct line is the first to come up when anyone calls Directory Assistance, so spent the day telling people calling to find out if Sears had generators that they'd have to call the Sears number.

My boss never lost power, either, but most of New Hampshire did and most of those within many miles of Fox Run were at Sears looking for generators. (They sure as heck weren't looking to buy eyeglasses!)

Another good thing that came out of it is we discovered that a nearby seafood restaurant has GREAT (and reasonably priced) breakfasts.

But it's really nice to be almost back to "normal" -- it's fatiguing to read by flashlight and get ready for work with jug water and low light, etc.

Later!
Linn

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

No, J.... you need to have enough to run the fire AND the blower... at LEAST a 3kw. Now, if ya wanna go for the rest, I would say a 6.5kw. The real problem is when a few motors run up. A 6500W gennie (Honda makes the best one for this... unless someone knows of a better one) is perfect for a small house.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:47 PM

Seriously, I have oil heat, so I just need something to power the switches/ignition, the refrigerator and the well pump. Maybe the microwave, but if I have fire, I can heath or cook things. I almost put some chicken in some aluminum foil and threw it in the coals, but I bought a chicken sub at Subway instead.

Not so seriously, I don't know if a small generator would run my computer and TV. (The guy across the street had his big flat screen TV in his guy hangout fired up with his gennie.)

Gnu, it's not a lack in IQ, it's the common sense that's missing plus a belief that one is immortal.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:09 PM

Just catching the news here.... 50 auto accidents in St. John, NB so far today.... and this is NOT a real snowstorm!!!!

I was out and aboutsts when it got underway here in Moncton around noon (6PM now). People driving like it was July! And, we have had a few winter storms already. What is wrong with these idiots?

Should the privelege of having a driver's license require a minimum IQ? Apparently, these idiots have passed the test... in the summer.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM

Big and honkin? Nope. You need a small generator and a power pak... or two. Check out the Honda generators in the 1kw to 2kw range, and the power paks in the 800 range. Great combination. And some 13w light bulbs. These will keep your small stuff running for weeks with a minimum of gasoline.

As for heating or AC for medium size houses, PM me if you want specs for gennies and emergency panels and hookups to a big honkin gennie (6.5kw or better).

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

I live in the boondocks, and I think I need a big honking generator.

My phone came on yesterday and my power came on last night while I was at Mary's. I got home today and the power went out again for a while, probably because they were fixing something. Apparently, (I called the power company) they first just got power restored if they could and are now working on getting things fixed right. Bat Goddess & curmudgeon MAY get power today, but the person I spoke with said they're planning to get that town up tomorrow.

Big thanks to Mary, who let me commute and stay in her house and enjoy the company of friends and critters.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: GUEST,Barry at the library
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM

Hello from Derry
We still are down on our knees. No nothing here. Phone, power, cable. Cell works but I have to drive an hour to charge it. Good excues to go to the Gloucester session last night & will probably go to an irish session in Wakefield, Mass. tonight. The National guard gave me a couple cases of water, I'll be pissing proper for the next month. Lin & Tom you weren't at the session Friday, are you OK?
We had a wood chipper come down our road to clear some of the debris in the street but when they came to the downed power lines & trees they headed for the tropics. Haven't seen any work being down in my neck of the woods to clear the streets, no power company to be heard from, no nobody & some are saying that it's still a guess as to when we'll be "turned on". I've been sleeping downstairs next to the propane stove, that keeps the living room & dining room warm enough, tha kitchen is cold but not freezing. Had to barb the thawing shrimp, tonight I'll get to bb'ing the thawed meat after I go to the gym for a swim & a shave. I'll be back but I don't know when. Good luck to you others that are frost frozen.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:30 PM

As to WYSIWYG...WELL ain't you special!

No but it's only ice, for goodness sakes! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:47 PM

Well, Amos, if you can get the funding, we can start right away and we'll be that much closer to completion. Even before you get funding for underground utilities in New England.

Kendall... I live in the city, but I have my own house, so I can marshall the resources to be self-sufficient. Not everyone has that situation, for whatever reason or choice.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

Hmmmmm...cabin fever is setting in and the Mainers are getting testy. Kendall - CELLAR! Tami! Go climb a tree. Both of you, make nice.

As to WYSIWYG...WELL ain't you special!

All we are saying is give peace a chance...C'mon Amos, join in. All we are saying is give peace a chance...

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:59 PM

I stop prufereeding on Dec. 15.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:56 PM

Ranger 1 who is forcing you to live in the city?

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:49 PM

We live right on the pink line, so it's been years now since we worried about the ice. It will come, or it will be rain, or it will be snow. We're PermaReady.

For pone thinmg, about the first of September I stop throwioiung out milk jugs, and I wash them and fill them with water. Sytoowed one gallon at a time in a place where it stays cold without freezinbgfm, we always have plenty of emeregency water on hand for when the power gfoes ouit.

A binful of cinders sits by the back step.

There is always food in the freezer, much of it already cooked. There is a gas heater that heats the summer BR in the winter, w/o electricity.

There is a portable gas grill for anything too frozen to eat, in addition to the big summer grill. There is a fireplace in the DR where a portable grill can be set, safely, out of the cold wind.

Hardi has a spare room at the church if he needs to sleep in town while I tend the house, dogs, and freezing pipes.

Beyond stuff like that, we just deal with it. If all else fails, we'll just hitch up the clothing-stocked camper and LEAVE! We live on the road the ambulance always takes, so it's always salted-- and it goes as far as the salted highway OUT of here.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: ranger1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM

Kendall, I have no issues with being without electric lights, computer, TV, video games, etc. What I have issue with is no heat source or cooking facilities. That's the problem with living in the stupid city. When I lived in the boondocks, I was always well prepared.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM

When you are born and raised in Maine, the first thing you learn is how to survive. A couple of days of no computer, TV or electric lights is just a trip down memory lane.You have grown soft! A little deprivation is good for you; it builds character.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:56 PM

How long a run are you thinking there, Gnu? A few k-years? :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

Well, Amos... essentially, if we were starting from scratch, a cost-benefit analysis may point in your direction.

As for me being able to "design" it, no problem. I've done it. One need only recall the old engineering saying, "Given enough time and money, we can build anything."

Now, Amos, let's talk about that bridge from California to China. Surely is would be more cost efficient in the long run than transporting goods and people by such old technology as seaships?

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

Well, that is nice to know, I guess, but it doesn't speak to the issue. I think the short-term costs savings of O/H lines are more than lost over longer periods especially if you add in the costs to the public of disruptions. PErhaps you know enough about options in the materials science division to conceive of a solution that woukld be robust even against frost heaving. Rights of ways which townships already hold for roadways could be invoked for the simplest access solution, and underground point-to-point boring is an established art at present.


A

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:45 PM

Well, Amos, I'll just say one more thing about u/g vs o/h. They ain't doin it round these here parts 'cept at airports and seaports.

gnu, M.Sc.Eng, P.Eng.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM

Checking in from southwestern New Hampshire, in a small village that still has no power, so I'm at the local big town (Keene) at the best independent coffeeshop. The power co is making no promises for the return of power- it could be Christmas by candlelight! But I have a wood stove, which heats the whole house, and the water comes in a trickle from a gravity-fed spring, so really I have nothing to complain about. Concerts and rehearsals are being cancelled here and there, but it's cozy and warm inside. Snow is predicted for the next several days, so I might as well get used to it.

BUT - what I HAD been getting used to was more time for Mudcat, and I'm seriously computer deprived! And now I have to go run some errands before going to Massachusetts to get my daughter from college (She Who Is Fit To Be Tied at the prospect of returning to the 19th century for Christmas! But she's getting resigned... I think... I hope!).

Allison

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:12 AM

Amos, I am not so sure about frost heaves not causing problems for underground back East. Some of the ones I saw were quite impressive. Ditto the trees and ice...there are so many trees back there, it's difficult to NOT have lines where they are vulnerable to falling trees. FWIW

Pizza and cell phone, huh? Oh, joy!

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: ranger1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:41 AM

Jeri, I think we were all feeling the same way. Plus, I think maybe we were mesmerized by those moving pictures in color in that box on Mary's desk...

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Alice
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:39 AM

Wind chill is -50 F., sky is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Alice
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:38 AM

Currently -15 F here.
It might get up to zero today.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:30 AM

I have one chunk of wood left, and I'm saving it for an emergency. (Boiling water for coffee.)

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:12 AM

and champagne Jeri? Without champagne and coffe there will be no reason to live.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

I was not being terribly social the other night. I was exhausted. I just wanted warmth and electricity and maybe to hear people talking without having to talk myself.

It's been relatively warm. I went home for a bit yesterday and opened all the windows. It was up to 52° when I left (and closed all the windows). Last I heard was my area will likely have power by Wed afternoon. Bat Goddess & curmudgeon are (I believe) on the same power line branch have a woodstove, so they're toasty. There are lots of food businesses open and gas stations.

I'm fairly sure that after the end of civilization as we know it, there will still be cell phones and pizza delivery guys coming to our caves.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:02 AM

Who knew--we have ice here in North Texas. It's a winter storm warning overnight. A two dog night (they'll sleep on the rug in my room).

I slithered across a bridge near the house this evening early an decided to leave my trip till after most of the folks on the road got home. The later trip was uneventful. I may know how to stay out of the ditch but that doesn't mean one of those Texas yahoos on the road won't hit me.

I doubt we'll get a snow day tomorrow, but we always enjoy them when they happen.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:19 PM

Underground utilities AFAIK do not suffer unduly from moisture in the conduits. WIthint their conduits, cables are typically separately insulated with tough outer covers. And the problem of weight is removed. The cheaper cost of overheads brings costs uncounted in human misery through power outages, for example. The cause of these collapses is the extremes of movement from wind and weight from ice buildup.

The problem of frost is essentially a depth and materials problem. The range of motion caused by frost heaves of terrain is relatively low; they do tend to break up concrete ducts which have very little flex in them. Rethinking the parameters of the conduits might lead to a more flexible AND more durable solution.


A

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:56 PM

You think ice is a problem with overhead, try to keep water out of shallow (<6 feet in Maine, due to frost) ductwork. The main problem with ice and overhead is damage from trees.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:44 PM

from an Edison Co. report:

"VII. Conclusion
Placing existing power lines underground is expensive. Undergrounding an entire state's existing overhead
power lines could cost as much as $94 billion and take decades to complete. The average cost of
undergrounding existing overhead power lines is approximately $1 million per mile. This is almost 10 times
the cost of a new overhead power line.
While communities and individuals continue to push for undergrounding—particularly after extended power
outages caused by major storms—the reliability benefits that would result are uncertain, and there appears to
be little economic justification or customer support for paying the required premiums.
Indeed, in its study of the undergrounding issue, the Maryland Public Service Commission concluded, "If a
10-percent return is imputed to the great amounts of capital freed up by building overhead instead of
underground line, the earnings alone will pay for substantial ongoing overhead maintenance," implying that utilities could have more resources available to them to perform maintenance and improve reliability on
overhead lines if they invested less in new underground facilities.37
For the foreseeable future, however, it appears that the undergrounding of existing overhead power lines will
continue, justified primarily by aesthetic considerations—not reliability or economic benefits. Many
consumers simply want their power lines placed underground, regardless of the costs. The challenge for
decision makers is determining who will pay for these projects and who will benefit from them."

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM

I wondered the same thing, Amos. In NYC ours were underground and we rarely had outages.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Alice
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

the expense

New utility lines often go underground, but the old ones are still overhead.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:09 PM

IS there some reason y'all don't bury your utilities when the weather is warm instead of hanging them off of poles?


A

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:06 PM

Careful Captain. Jacqui is a member of the coven. You could find yurself confined to the cellar.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:48 AM

That is, if I show up at all.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

I'm glad to hear Jeri made it to warmth....and that Alice is hunkering down till it's safe. It looks like the power companies have a LOT of work to do this week. Y'all stay put and stay warm till they make progress... (as if you needed that admonishment!)

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Alice
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:17 AM

High forecast here of -18 F today. That's the High.

I have not gone outside for 2 days. May stay in today, too, and just work by phone.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:57 AM

Next ice storm, I will be sure to invite you, Kendall.

Boy, ladies, we are in trouble. I bet he puts away the leather coat and black hat and shows up in polyester just to spite us.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:04 AM

Bubbly too? Next you'll be telling me youse watched the Pat's game... be still my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:00 AM

There was a Friggin' Party and I missed it?

Curzes, filed agin!

P.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:41 AM

Yes, but not at the friggin' party! I'm sulking.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:09 AM

What were you doing up at that time of night Kendall?

I don't know. I leave the country for just a little while and there's wild parties being held with TWO BOTTLE OF CHAMPAGNE!!!!! and my husband staying up till all hours of the night.

Wahhhhhh!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 11:09 PM

It's a long road that has no turns.

In bed at 8:30? It's now 11:09 and I'm still up.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 09:58 PM

I wanted to invite you, Kendall but got voted down. The pizza did not arrive until 8:30 and they all figured you were in bed. Too bad really. Bandit and Joey got their shares of the goodies. And we polished off two bottles of champagne.

LOL
I love spontaneous parties.

Subject: RE: BS: ICE - the winter kind
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 08:33 PM

Sure, I'm within 5 miles but did I get invited? Hell no! sniff.