BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM

WLD.you gave me 4 paras.
1 Yes, Divis was a combatant. I was not.
I think that stats keep us rooted in reality and not arguing in a vacuum. No one disputes the stats.
2He IS allowed to express his opinions without being insulted.
If I have insulted him I will apologise. Have I?
3Yes, the same event in history can be seen in many different ways.
4I CAN understand that he sees it differently. Is it not OK to debate with him about it? And why do you only address me?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM

I can feel a song coming on.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

Bad as that eh?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

That's probably the most sensible thing you've done.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:05 PM

Hmmm, dunno....can't speak for 'Uddersfelt, as havent done much more than travel through the place.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:02 PM

What about Huddersfield?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:59 PM

Not quite....& nor is Halifax.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Head up arse
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

All I can see up here is .... You.

Is Hull Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

*ROFL* So, 'Guest' your head too far up your own arse to see the irony of commenting on someones sincerity, anonymously, eh...

I'm not really surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:04 PM

Divis seems to have been a lot neareer the action than you and me Keith, and probably a lot nearer than the guy who put together all these statistics you keep coming up with.

He thinks what he thinks. he's allowed to express his opinions without being insulted.

most people who lived through the 2nd world war listen to the stuff on the history channel and call it a load of bollocks.

Its not that he even disagrees with you, he just saw a different war. after all this time, I can't see why you can't understand this.

Can you not detect a degree of sincerity in his beliefs about what he experienced?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:01 PM

Ditto!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:05 PM

Another Guest thankful that I am an occasional visitor, there are some very weird people on this Site, so long.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:35 AM

I would absolutely call losing a furry member of the family and a human member of the family during the same period a tragedy indeed, GUEST.

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

Right GUEST I have just about had enough of remarks on this site. There is much more happening in my life right now than the death of a pet.

Without sounding too melodramatic please keep your remarks to yourself, the above one was about as sick as they come.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:01 AM

A cat dying may or may not be classed as a "personal tragedy"

Remove foot from mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:02 AM

Keith, winding you up...Sorry, couldn't help myself.

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

Epona , I made the same criticism of Divis on this thread TWICE, on 20th December, before his recent personal tragedies.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM

Insert foot in mouth....

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM

You have my sympathies Divis.
Best wishes ,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:03 AM

Sorry Keith you feel this way about me.
I am sorry if at this moment I am not in the mood to debate with you. I will be more than glad to debate with yourself and Teribus in the near future.

Just at the moment I have had a death in the family and funeral taking place shortly when family get home from overseas.

Thanks

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:51 AM

Divis, you start these threads and talk so tough, but as soon as someone puts up a challenge you withdraw.
Pathetic.
You are a moral weakling.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM

Teribus, whatever you say. I am looking forward to a new year and new threads, so maybe you should do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:22 PM

Whatever you say Teribus, you are probably right. Sorry not up for a fight at the moment.

Hope you had a great Christmas and good luck for new year.

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM

GUEST, 20 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM

"Has Teribus finally lost the plot & now suffering from delusional fantasies?
.....
Now I see he is attacking the people of South West London ?"

You have been asked many, many times to provide one example of attacks against the people of South West London. Guess what GUEST, you have singularly failed to do so at each time of asking - it's certainly not me that's delusional - it's certainly not me that is fantasising - anything I have said in this thread can be backed up, which, oddly enough, is bourne out by the fact that none of what I have said has been challenged or repudiated. So much for me having, "deliberately manipulated intelligent debate to undermine other members by deception".

Divis Sweeney - 20 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

"Regarding the facts and figures you throw at me from time to time, these bores the ass of most members."

I am sure that they do Divis. They also happen to be rather embarassing for your arguement don't they? Here's a recap just in case they'd slipped your mind -

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

Now tell us again just who it was that the PIRA were "protecting" Divis. Can you explain why the bulk of those killed by the PIRA were innocent civilians. Can you explain just exactly what was the tactical thinking behind the bombing campaign executed on Bloody Friday, and what the additional hoax bomb threat calls were supposed to achieve over that period of time on that day?. You certainly have a great deal to be proud of - I think not - Not a single member of the Provisional IRA EVER gave their life in order to save the life of a single civilian in Northern Ireland or elsewhere - I can give you numerous examples where members of the Police, Security Forces and Emergency Services did exactly that - And Yes Divis I am inordinately proud of them for doing so.

Divis Sweeney - 20 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

"Regarding actions referred to here carried out by members of the Provisional IRA prior to the Good Friday Agreement,the British government will not be pursing them through the courts seeking custodial sentences. Legislation to drop prosecutions for offences committed before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement was introduced by the British Government.

These were agreed by the two governments during Weston Park talks. They agreed not to pursue the prosecutions of those involved in so called crimes committed before April 1998 (take that one up with your government)."

It would appear Divis that what is sauce for the Goose is not good enough for the Gander. Which is it to be?? If you want names put and responsibility established then it has to universal, it must apply right across the board. That won't happen of course because the leading lights of Sinn Fein would be accutely embarassed, to the point where they would have to step down for their involvement in certain things, no decent human being would want to be in the same room as them, let alone shake them by the hand, or look them in the eye. By the bye the GFA applies to crimes investigated, as previously stated cases such as the McConville case are still open as are the remaining 681 cases relating to the murders of HM Forces Personnel (Only 81 cases were actually ever investigated and the others reamin on the books)

Oh yes Divis, you never, ever did come back to provide justification for the killing of a British Servicemen in retaliation for the murder of Kathleen Feeney, a murder perpetrated by the PIRA - proud of that one too?

The PIRA were liars, thugs, extorsionists, drug dealers (DAAD actually stands for Deter All Alternative Dealers as opposed to Direct Action Against Drugs), murderers, dissemblers. Had the Official IRA line been followed in 1972 then over 3000 Irish men women and children would still be alive today.

Alison M - 21 Dec 06 - 03:13 PM

"Keith A, it is not all the IRA's fault. Loyalists/Unionists have killed plenty of innocent people and the British played a part in this too."

Alison the figures appear above, over two thirds of all who lost their lives did so deliberately at the hands of the PIRA/INLA. I have said so many times on this forum I have got absolutely nothing but complete and utter contempt for ALL the paramilitary groups who operated in Northern Ireland, and I vehemently object to and will counter the arguements put forward by anyone who attempts to excuse or glorify their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

Merry Christmas and thanks Epona.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

100 but no cheers from me

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

As I just said, I was only replying to issues raised by Divis.
You would prefer all his posts to go unchallenged?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

You're perseverating...it's like I never left!

E

PS Happy Christmas and Happy Holidays!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:02 AM

Keith

The key to getting out of this vicious cycle you have created here is simple. STOP IT NOW. You have become the type of person no one likes to talk to any more. In fact you have become obnoxious I am sorry to have to say.


Your friends and acquaintances have began to distance themselves from you due to your lack of acceptance of other members posts.


You sound as if you have better things to do than listen to whoever is replying to you. You never seem to respond to scenarios people pose without some snide remark.
Frequently you dismiss stories and accounts of others. Stories that have a lot to do with the discussion at hand.
You ask people stupid questions like, "Why are you bringing this into it ?" It's like on a particularly serious topic, you may as well laugh hysterically at their point.
      
It's like a kid I knew at school who would Interrupt at random intervals with animal noises or vulgar sayings that are completely out of context and extremely inappropriate.
   
Why must you always be argumentative by disagreeing with anything anyone has to say ?


You have shown no consideration for others members views.
On a regular basis it's as if you wish to inform others of your superiority.

I once agreed with many points you made. Now you seem to have perfected your technique of getting for others to respond in an appropriate manner. You seem to have a new persona.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 06:56 AM

I seem incapable of moving on?
Divis, YOU started this thread.
YOU raised the issue of apologies.
YOU raised the issue of prisoner treatment.
I merely responded.
Surely I helped your case by reminding everyone that it was not just your brother who was burned?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:38 AM

Christ, Harry Houdini didn't twist as much as you do Keith, sorry I don't tell tales. I state fact. Yes I have two small scars on my left arm caused by cigarette burns.My brothers case is recorded and occurred in 1972.

I have listened to your last remark about "telling tales" and "being a liar"

I really should have listened to so many other members who left this thread a long time ago and followed the example of others. This is due to your lack of logical debate and silly half assed remarks.

You seem incapable of moving on. What I would really like to see is you talking to someone from one of the dissident groups. There you won't find any words like sorry, let's move on, it's over or let's embrace peace. Your not following the route your government took with us.


I remain committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland ONLY through peaceful means.


Close the door after you Keith, I think you'll find the room is now empty.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:34 AM

Thread Name Subject Posted
[PM] Divis Sweeney BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq (164* d) RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq 14 Feb 06

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Keith please prove I tortured anyone. Please also provide evidence I have ever come onto this site using Guest aliases. Stop making silly remarks unless you can back them up. Only makes you look foolish.

Teribus, saw British troops gather children on many occasions as cover walking through certain areas of Belfast with the lure of sweets. You forgot to add that one.

As to your remark about torture using cigarettes, glad you brought that up.
In 1976 I won my case against the British government for ill treatment and wrongful arrest, and yes you guessed it, the scars from the cigarette burns inflicted by British soldiers on my right arm and the photographic evidence along with their admission won my case.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:58 AM

Epona, PIRA killed thousands, mostly innocent by standers and mostly catholic.
Divis has never qualified his pride in all they did.
He has never criticised them for anything.
Even when it emerged they killed a child to blame the army, he just repeated the official apology.
Just now he described horrific physical torture and the routine execution of prisoners as " a bit rough". That is his strongest ever criticism.
He just tells us over and over how proud he is.

Divis, about your brother's burns.
(Last time you told this tale it was you that was burned)
Such action was never permitted.
That is why compensation would be paid.
The guilty would be charged.
I am not proud of such renegades, even if they were desperate to prevent another bomb on the streets their families walked.
I am ashamed of them and their behaviour.
Will you say the same about your "nutting squads"?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:04 PM

Just in, wanted to say hello! Long time, no chat....I knew I would find a thread on here about Ireland. Now, as I interject here, I am conscious of stepping into another debate between several names I know rather well. But I feel I have to say this. I don't remember reading the part where Divis said he was "proud of the killing." I am a speed reader though and admit I may have missed that. That being said, I can completely understand feeling sorry for deaths, but proud of your soldiers. I don't understand how you cannot be proud of men and women who are willing to sacrifice themselves to promote and protect your freedom. And I'm not talking about glorifying torture or abuse. I am talking about proudly supporting people that, by the very essence of them volunteering for a soldier's position, is making the statement that he or she is willing to give their life for yours. That is the ultimate sacrifice, one that many play lipservice to, but never find the courage to embrace.

Just a side note: I got my copy of Lost Lives! What a reference this book is!

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:54 PM

But which Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:36 PM

Are you proud of your soldiers and the job they were paid to do ?
Yes the "nutting squad" used means which were rough.
My own brother received 3,000 pounds which was a lot of money then for the torture used against him by the British army.It was not light or sound Keith, it was cigarette burns. It was a doctor who pushed his case, he was afraid to. It was the army did this, Do you not believe there was torture besides light and sound ? please let me know and I can and will supply you evidence Keith.
My comments are consistent with GAC command.
Can we get this thread cleared up before Christmas ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

The cruel treatment Britain used was light and sound which was previously not regarded as torture.
As you say it was stopped.
Your side used horrific physical torture and routinely executed, so how can you express disapproval?
I respected PIRA for their apology.
I thought it a great step forward.
I find your comments inconsistent with the PIRA apology.
How can you be sorry for the deaths and proud of the killing?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

I'm sure the "non combatants" families are comforted and reassured by all the fine words here. My thoughts are with them and all of the platitudes being thrown around here must be very hard for them to swallow. Let's have peace and whatever reconcilliation can be achieved but please no more glorification of the "combatants".

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:46 PM

Keith, The Provisional IRA have apologised for the civilian deaths and injuries it caused during the campaign and offered its sincere apologies and condolences to the families.

The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing our minds and hearts to the plight of all of those who had been hurt. It will not be achieved by creating a hierarchy of victims in which some are deemed more or less worthy than others. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non combatants.

I myself believe Sinn Fein is committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland.

I remain totally committed to the peace process and to dealing with the challenges and difficulties which this presents us with daily. This includes the acceptance of past mistakes by all sides and of the hurt and pain caused to others.

There is two sides to this Keith. As an example,on two occasions the British government were found guilty of cruel and inhuman treatment in European courts. the British government publicly admitted it and promised to refrain from all the violations the court found them guilty of. I can accept their willingness to correct this and sorry to use this as an example, not trying to stir the pot, just want you to see wrongs came in from all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM

Divis, & Keith, for what my opinion worth, well said, both of you.

Divis, you put your case damn well there.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:50 PM

Thanks Divis.
We see things very differently and yes we must agree to disagree.
I am just trying to get clear what you are apolologising for.
We are all sorry about the loss of life in last years tsunami, but that is not an apology.
You say you are sorry for the loss of life in the troubles.
Well everyone is.
That is not an apology either.
Get some rest and perhaps we can clear it up some time.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:26 PM

It is Shaneo. Don't get them started on the Shinners next , if you do your on your own !

Enjoy Christmas
Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Shaneo
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:18 PM

Are Sinn Fein the only policital party in the world that have representatives in two states [countries] they have four M.Ps in Westminster and five in Dail Éireann [Irish parliament]
Is this unique ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:12 PM

Right Keith let's get this question of your cleared up. Sorry for the delay. Lacking sleep,very tired at moment.

You said,
"My problem with your apology is this.
Being sorry implies regret.
I do not understand how you can be both sorry for, and proud of, the same deeds".

I am sorry that there was loss of life in the North of Ireland. The grief of the family of a British soldier is no different than that of a family of a PIRA volunteer. Yes it does imply regret. Regret that life was taken (on both side).

The question you posed "sorry for and proud of the same deeds".

Sorry for loss of life, yes. Proud of the men within the PIRA yes. Regarding the "same deeds" I don't understand this.

Are you saying how can I be sorry for what they did, if the same people I am proud of carried out these deeds ?

Keith I imagine you are proud of the British army and regret the lives they took. Was their deeds any different ?

You will no doubt say here you agree with a British soldier shooting an armed volunteer. I am not going to argue with you.

We both have used names of people on these threads killed by both the IRA and British army. (Mrs McConville and Majella O'Hare).

Both killings brought grief and suffering, there are many other people s names we could use to score points. I have regret for the loss of both lives.

I could have brought the names of two members of my own family here who were murdered but didn't, no doubt if I did I would get it in the neck "expecting special treatment" as you once put it.


The difference that lies between us is simple Keith. I considered we fought a war. You considered that your army fought a war. You say our war was wrong and I say your occupation of my country was wrong.

We will never agree, ever. You say we would have got a lot more if we hadn't employed the armed struggle, sorry let's agree to disagree on that one.

So let's agree, you support the role of the British army in Ireland, correct ?

I supported the Provisional IRA campaign for the removal of British rule in Ireland.

There I hope your answer lies and accept we will never agree. We are two very difference people who will never alter the others thinking.

Enjoy Christmas and let's both hope for peace in 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM

Merry Christmas to the families of the victims of the "Troubles"

This time of year must really bring it all home.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

My problem with your apology is this.
Being sorry implies regret.
I do not understand how you can be both sorry for, and proud of, the same deeds.

I will leave you to think about that one.
Safe journey home, and best wishes to you and yours.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM

Sorry Keith, you are right. I really am sorry about that. Lot gonig on at moment and returning home today.
Hope you and family have a great Christmas.
Best Wishes
Divis.
I had already made my apology I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 03:07 AM

Sweeney, in the spirit of reconcilliation I gave you the apology that you asked me for, and asked you to match it.
You did not even bother to acknowledge it.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:22 PM

Alison you are right.
I have said here many times that I have nothing but contempt for ALL the paramilitaries.
There are just no Loyalist paramilitary supporters here for me to argue with.