BS: Older Drivers are Killers

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM

Despite regular visits to her physician, my elderly mother was deemed physically and mentally fit to drive. The good doctor had obviously never been a passenger in a vehicle, with her at the wheel.

Fortunately for some on the road here in BC, we have a provision under the motor vehicle act which allows family members and I believe others, in confidence, to report in writing concerns about elderly drivers and request a driving test. As a result, my brother and I were relieved to finally get our 80+ year old mother off the road and do it with anonymity.

While its a lot more work for us and initially she was depressed, we've still managed to keep her and her dog in her own home and the cost to her, of maintaining and running a vehicle, more than covers a few hours a week extra companionship and help, beyond my brother's and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

"So Bobad, at what age do YOU consider a man to be physically or mentally unfit?"

Don, It's not up to me to make the call that someone is not physically or mentally fit to be operating a motor vehicle, the responsibility for this assessment is up to the person's physician and a serious one it is as the physician can be held liable if it can be shown that he knew a person shouldn't have been driving yet neglected to have his license revoked.

This is an ongoing problem in the rural area in which I live as a car is a necessity and the revocation of one's driver's permit usually means the end of your living in your own home. My physician is also a personal friend and he often speaks of the battles he wages in trying to have elderly drivers' permits revoked.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:06 AM

Bruce,

In your second post you quoted the officer as follows:- "The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy. I have no reason to disbelieve him."

Any traffic policeman might expect to deal with fatal accidents on a very regular basis, and a remark of that nature without comparison to other age groups is essentially meaningless, and unhelpful.

You are entitled to blame the driver responsible for your loss, but unless you have evidence to link older drivers to a high proportion of deaths, in relation to their numbers, your basic premise is untenable.

Insurance companies sell comprehensive policies to older drivers at premiums that would not buy third party for a twenty five year old, and believe me insurance underwriters do not make mistakes in calculating odds.

You are hurting now, for yourself and your children, but trust me, your hurt will not be lessened by bitterness against the thousands of good older drivers who had nothing to do with your loss.

I know, from personal experience, that there are times when we just want to lash out at someone to relieve our feelings. In my experience, it never helps.

I wish there were something I could do to reduce the pain, but only time can do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:38 AM

Motor vehicle accidents are caused by:

1) Drunk (or maybe stoned) drivers.

2) Drivers talking on hand-held cell phones while driving.

3) Younger drivers without sufficient experience; especially when the car is full of their friends.

4) Young or middle-aged male drivers trying to prove that their balls are bigger than the other guy's.

5) Moms whose children in the back seat demand attention while they're driving.

6) And older drivers whose vision, reflexes, etc., are shot. No argument there. But why single out one of those groups as the bad guys?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM

Well... excuse me for asking some valid questions. Your implication that I have no "understaning and kindness" precludes intelligent discussion. Your loss does sadden me. However, I assumed you were soliciting support, not sympathy.

This is me leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM

So Bobad, at what age do YOU consider a man to be physically or mentally unfit?

Bear in mind the fact that many of the world's acknowledged geniuses did their best work in their latter years.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:08 AM

I don't think comparing the accident rates of young to elderly drivers is a valid one. Younger drivers' accidents are most often caused by willful disregard as opposed to physical or mental deficiency due to age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:42 AM

In the UK a driver over 70 causing a motor accident to which the Police have been caused is likely to have to to attend court in order that their ability to continue driving can be assessed. Most of the time they are not given the option to plead guilty and get fined and/or points on their license. I dealt with these cases regularly as a motor injury claims negotiator, arranging for legal representation for these peole. Most of the time the solicitor would try and persuade the driver to voluntarily give up the license and accept that they were no longer fit to drive. The company I worked for tailored motor policies for the over 60s, and made a modest profit from the motor account. We wouldn't touch drivers under 25 - that group was considered too risky - and some of the worse cases I had to deal with were caused by young drivers, who then tried to put the blame onto our Insured.

Any one of us could be the cause of a fatal accident. Driving when tired, losing attention because World War Three has broken out between your kids in the back seat and just plain old carelessness can make killers of us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:19 AM

This fall I was forced off the road by a 104 year old driver.
This May he will be 105.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:02 AM

It is a problem. Five years ago, my father-in-law gave up driving because of slowed response time and age-induced macular degeneration (since stabilized). My mother-in-law (87) will NOT admit to lessened capacity, but fortunately she hasn't driven at night for many years.

I'm soon to be 61, my wife is 63. We're both going to take refresher courses the next time they're offered.

I think that after, say, 75 or whenever in the opinion of a license examiner your reflexes or other physical or mental functioning has slowed down you should be re-examined and if necessary given a restricted license (of it should be removed entirely). Re-testing should be mandatory every three years -- and if you stop or are stopped driving free public transportation should be made available.

(As a paranthetical note, the best driving course I ever had was an informal one-on-one by a pursuit driver for the Ohio State Police. He taught me things I never knew could be done -- legal, and which enhance safety at any speed (I never drove over 110 mph on the course). The second best was a cross-country driving course taught by the US Army -- my driver's education classed in high school were a joke.)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM

How many road accident resulting in deaths are caused by drivers between the ages of 18-24??

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:48 AM

Guest 07:51 (is your name a secret?) I have been driving on the Autobahn for over twenty years and it is something I have to do regrettably often for my work. No, I do not believe in staying in the middle lane unless I am overtaking. Neither do I. What I am talking about, is the yobs who drive a metre from your bumper, when you are overtaking a line of lorries at about 120 km/h or more. You very often have them threatening your life (and that of your kids) even when you are overtaking, while keeping your distance from the car in front of you. The mentality of these bits of human filth is that they have the right to tailgate the driver in front of you. Do you want these assholes on the road?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:51 AM

Alanabit. I've never had a problem on german autobahns. As long as you move over after overtaking you have no problem. They can't understand our lazy middle lane driving, and neither should they. I don't either!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM

GUEST 06.38pm - Are you a cyclist ? I presume you are NOT a mudcat member (most of us are more or less polite) I ride a pushbike fairly
regularly and have problems all the time with totally thoughtless drivers , who seem never to even SEE a cyclist , let alone accept that
we have any right to be on the road .
That said , I have no time for the fools on bikes who ride on pavements , ignore traffic lights , and dont have any lights at night .

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:54 AM

I can only endorse every word that Don T wrote. There are drivers of eighty, who drive safely and there are drivers of thirty who never will. Statistics would probably identify young male drivers as the most dangerous on the road. However, we are all well aware that neither age nor gender are any guarantee that someone will drive a certain way.
The worst traffic hooligans whom I have encountered in recent years have usually been wealthy men between thirty and sixty on the German Autobahns. Many of these yobs should never be allowed out on anything more dangerous than a bicycle.
I am very sorry to hear of your loss Bruce. It is a tragic coincidence though. Older drivers have killed people, but they still remain one of the safest sections of society to have behind the wheel of a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:48 AM

Two killed yesterday in Northern Ireland. 74 year old lady driver was the cause. You should phone the families gnu of 28 year old and the 17 year old and mouth off to them.Sure they would like to hear from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Bruce Martin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM

The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Yes younger drivers are a serious threat on our roads and glad to see the police target this group daily. When you see a boy racer you tend to know what to expect. Insurance companies make it difficult for them, police media campaigns focus on them and the point system nails them, but there is nothing to deal with the older drivers.Since the accident I tend to be more aware of older drivers and their lack of use of indicators and junction positioning.Gnu, I am 38 a father of two young children who ask why they don't have a mother. I hold an advanced licence in both car and motorcycle. I would be willing to be tested as often as I would be required.As to the criteria I would you use for driving suspension, reaction times and control I feel would be important. Hope you never live my postion in life. Many thanks to the rest of you for understanding and kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:38 AM

Cyclists are a bit like some of the users of this website, they have too much to say, and are often unecessarily aggressive. For the free use of the roads and/or of the Mudcat a little more gratitude and humility would seem to be in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:22 AM

When I was a Police Officer, I had to deal with accidents and found that the 'majority accident' age group was the 17-25's....yes there were some serious faults made by the older generation but if we start changing the rules for them then we must also perhaps raise the age limit for young drivers...where does it stop?.
Sorry for the problems you have had but the age thing is perhaps more coincidence than absolute reality.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:12 AM

as a cyclist;
i'd support compulsary regular refresher training & re-testing
[eg. every 5 years]
for all drivers..

and tougher banning penalties for convicted careless drivers.

.. and also a road users training/testing/licence system for cyclists
and electric disability buggy users..

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:08 AM

All of the above, plus the below, from national statistics;
Although they walk less than people in younger age groups, older people are considerably more likely to be killed, as pedestrians, in a road accident. People aged 70 and over walked on average nearly a third less far than the population as a whole in 2002. However, 3.7 per 100,000 population aged 70 and over were killed as pedestrians in road accidents, compared with a rate of 1.3 per 100,000 for the population as a whole.

So the elderly are more likely to be killed by their younger compatriots if they are making a journey out of a vehicle!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM

I sympathise most deeply with your feelings of loss, Bruce, and I understand your anger and frustration.

You undoubtedly feel that these two drivers should not have been on the road in charge of a vehicle, and in this you are most probably right. I would even agree that some kind of driver assessment, including a medical and an ability check for drivers over, say, 70 might be a good idea.

My reasons, however, are not the same as yours.

The two instances you give show two drivers who, through inattention to the task in hand, caused the deaths of other road users. This may however simply show that they were very bad drivers, and age may not have been a factor in this.

Statistically, the most dangerous group on the road are aged 18 - 25 years, while the safest are 50 - 70 years.

A check into the past history of these two might well show similar incidents over the course of their driving careers.

There are many very good octogenarian drivers out there, who have never been involved in an accident. Indeed, to take your example, some years ago there was a London cabbie, who was still qualifying annually at the age of 83.

Establishing stereotypes, by generalising from too little evidence, is a dangerous procedure, as it can lead to people being put into categories in which they do not belong, and many older drivers rely on their cars for mobility, especially those in areas where public transport is poor, or non-existent.

You lost your partner in an incident that was truly against the odds, due to the actions of a very bad driver, but I would suggest that, if the driver had been 21 years old (a much more likely event) you would not be suggesting a retest for all drivers of that age.

Now, I said above that I think a check for very elderly drivers might be a good idea. My reasons for that are as follows.

1. It would point up the physical ability of the driver, allowing those who no longer have the strength to handle steering, or braking effectively to be removed from the road.

2. It would give information on bad driving habits, deficiencies in attention or attitude, and other factors, which could be remedied before allowing further driving to continue.

The thing is though, that similar testing would probably be just as useful for drivers aged 25, or 35, or.........

Once again, please accept my deepest sympathy

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: s&r
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:19 AM

It may be that reaction time slows with age; experience, anticipation and caution can make up for this. Impatience and starting your journey too late are in my opinion the biggest road hazards.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:13 AM

Quote from DVLA Site

"Age is no bar to the holding of a licence. DVLA requires confirmation at age of 70 that no medical disability is present, thereafter a 3 year licence is issued subject to satisfactory completion of medical questions on the application form. Notwithstanding, as ageing progresses, a driver or his relative(s) may be aware that the combination of progressive loss of memory, impairment in concentration and reaction time with possible loss of confidence, suggest consideration be given to cease driving. Physical frailty is not per se a bar to the holding of a licence."

While I sympathise with your personal situation, it remains a fact that many more accidents are caused by young and inexperienced drivers, than by older drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:09 AM

"This age."? How old are you? When is the last time you were "tested"? How much money would you be willing to pay to be tested? How often do you think you should be tested? What criteria would you use for driving suspension?

Subject: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Bruce Martin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM

Five years ago my partner was killed in a road accident.A man of 83 crossed the central line and she was killed in a head on.The gentleman died five days later.Doctors said there was no signs of any illness as a cause of the accident. Five weeks ago a young lady who works in my office was killed when a 72 year old woman drove out of a side road without stopping onto a busy carriageway. A lady in another car was also killed.The young lady was 21.These are not isolated incidents. I have wrote to government, lobby groups and the local media. The government must bring in some type of a test in the U.K. for car drivers of this age. Would any of you get into a taxi or aircraft if the driver or pilot was in his 80's ?