BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

Sting the folkie

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:06 PM

Snap...PFR. I also hear something special in his voice and delivery.

Same thing with Sting.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

Funny you guys should say this - I always thought Rod Stewart would make a good trad folk singer...

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 07:56 AM

"Thank goodness nobody has yet asserted that Rod Stewart can sing."

Oh fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck! I'm utterly distraught that I find myself in agreement with Flashman (or do I mean Bunter?).

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 06:57 AM

One aspect the BBC is being studiously silent about is the charge from Cliff and South Yorkshire police that they misused the information the Police supplied them with to sensationalise the search. It became the overall coverage of the day, almost to the exclusion of some very serious world affairs, and the refusal to account for the action shows not only a continuation of the cover-ups of the 1960s this may be part of, but also a refusal to accept the recommendations of the Leveson Commission into the relationships between the Press and the Police. It furthermore demonstrates that the Press cannot be self-regulating as it insists.
Part of this is, of course, the absence of top management in the BBC Trust. Designed to be a toothless organisation from the very start - I recall protesting the fact on the BBC columns, something which got me banned from there, the use of industry insiders put the writing on the wall - it has been further enfeebled by the failure to appoint a new Chairman after Chris Patten resigned at the start of May. The post is currently in the care of the Vice Chair, Diane Coyle, whose husband just happens to be Rory Cellan-Jones, a BBC News technology journalist. His blog's latest entry is rather revealing, as it shows how his son has a different information-gathering network from his own and his wife's, a network which is less susceptible to massage and management, and shows that the Establishment (and you don't get much more Establishment than Acting Chair of the BBC Trust, member of the Competition Commission until its closure in April, time she's retasking as Professor of Economics at Manchester, having followed an Oxford PPE with a Harvard Doctorate in Economics and a couple of years in HM Treasury) has its eyes on controlling that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 06:28 AM

Ian Huntley flagged up on another count, though, Al: he wanted to study alchemy in clink. That has a history of child abuse associated with the dark side of it, because the early alchemists wanted to make it difficult for their rivals: in this instance, all that was known is that the next step of the work was "The Massacre of the Innocents", which was first recorded as the defence of Joan of Ark's Lieutenant-General Gilles de Rais for the mass-murder of at least 80 (per the skulls), 800 (per his confession) and possibly as many as 2500 (per demographic figures) children outside Nantes between 1435 and 1440. What he was actually after was improving the quality of gunpowder for cannonry, but no matter, he walked that path. And before anyone says it's nonsense, the Drew Professor of the Humanities in the Department of the History of Science at Johns Hopkins University has been successfully reproducing the work over the past couple of years, and the entire Project Newton experiment was started after some remarkable successes by a body studying the Elixir of Life, specifically opening an entire new field in oncology. It's the Royal Society who've got it wrong, throwing out the baby of what gave them birth with the bathwater of the superstition and error which we are somewhat specialists in: when they portray an image of science springing fully-formed from the ground in the 1670s, they omit to tell you that Newton wrote twice as much on alchemy as he did on physics, and that his work and Leibnitz was predicated in van Helmont's, which was sparked by an alchemical experiment disproving the four-element model which had held since Greek times. Van Helmont's alchemical adept was Nicholas de Cerclaers, the neighbour who inspired the Breughels in their works on the subject, based around the very subject I've just discussed.
Nor was Huntley alone in this in modern times. The Belgian child-murderer Marc Dutroux was managed as a snitch in a car-theft ring by a number of gendarmes who were also members of Abraxas, a subsect of Crowley's satanic OTO specialising in child abuse: the Thames Torso case was part of the work of their brother Voudon organisation, specialists in African black magick. The original Templar Abraxas is part of the mediaeval thinking in this domain, and again walked that path, it is thought.

That is some of the reality. Other parts of it, we should recall, were the background to the Dunblane shootings, which showed that Belgium is not alone in this practice riddling high society and politics. To what extent this all interacts is hard to know, because we're dealing with minds so sick nobody should be asked to study them. In Belgium, it certainly interacts with the top of the Roman Church, the way pressure brought to bear by the Adrienssens cover-up found they had all the buttons to push right to hand.

Does this involve Cliff, though? He rightly complains that his right to a presumption of innocence has been radically abused by the Police, to an extent which should make any judge in his right mind throw any case out before it even reaches him, rightly or wrongly: this is still Life on Mars policing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:54 AM

Thank goodness nobody has yet asserted that Rod Stewart can sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:15 AM

innocent until proven guilty
the whole point of legal blackmail is that it is known to the informant that the whiff of a scandal is enough. A powerful lever.

Once the message is public it hangs around, despite any denials, or acquittal. Elton John had enough money to take the mendacious Sun (not a newspaper) all the way to the High Court and won. Anyone with less money might have to roll over and do nothing.

The squeeky clean image of Sir Cliff is no longer clean, images have no correlation to law, or even justice.

Innocent only in the eyes of the law. "Not Proven" in the law of images.

sadly this is also the price of fame. He is a target because he has money. And because there is now a question mark.

The BBC have a lot of questions to answer. They used blackmail to get the permission to film. They had the information, they promised not to broadcast as soon as they heard, they didn't need to film to honour that promise. Call it astute news-gathering all you want. It was also blackmail.
J'accuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM

al , i was talking about the shadows as a group ,not jet harris as a solo artist.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:21 AM

Surely this particular point concerns about the use of the word "love", not the word "paedophile"
Its of course perfectly normal to like/love small children, without being sexually attracted to them, some people "love" their dogs and cats

I would say paedophiles were "sexually orientated" towards pre pubescent children and as such, could be said to suffer from a psychological abnormality.
We used to call such things "perversion" before we were overtaken by political correctness.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:17 AM

Some unfortunate misunderstandings have arisen through words acquiring meaning in this way. "Abuse" covers bullying, physical attacks, verbal attacks ... but these days, if people hear the word "abuse", many of them will unthinkingly assume that it is "sexual abuse".

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:54 AM

Yes -- perversely!

Words acquire overtones thru usage, notoriously. Paedophilia has unfortunately evolved to mean an unhealthy love or desire.

That's just how language works -- it has a will of its own.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM

I'm not sure I would describe a desire to sexually abuse, coupled with a willingness to kill to avoid detection could as an affectionate regard, friendship or love.

That's the source of my unease. You live near Soham Mike - would you call Ian Huntley a lover of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:07 AM

No, not a misnomer: "phil or "phile", as prefix or suffix, imply a lover -- a member of a philharmonic choir loves harmony; a bibliophile loves books; a paedophile loves young people, (while a paediatrician treats their ailments)... from Greek*.

≈M≈

*"Philia (φιλία philía) is "mental" love. It means affectionate regard or friendship in both ancient and modern Greek." Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:22 PM

its a bit of a misnomer really. after all a bibliophile doesn't wasn't to misuse books and want to screw books.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:41 PM

Is it true that paedophilia is a disease? You catch it by being a victim and later you pass it on by being a perpetrator?

If so, do you think it possible to break that link and eradicate the disease?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 06:32 PM

I saw Jet Harris do a gig about five years before he snuffed it. H e was terrific. I went out and bought a bass guitar the day after. he was an inspirational musician.

A Dutch tribute band had come over specially to see him. they had copies of all the old vinyl albums.

still, I got no axe to grind with Dick. I think he's a smashing musician.

however i thought i'd like to say a word in Jet's defence, and disagree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 04:11 PM

Oh no, there are some whom I hate with a vengeance! But you're not one. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:50 PM

Aaaaaaaahhhhh — I bet you say that to all the boys!.....

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:45 PM

Oh BTW, Michael, Regarding concertinas, I was making a point - that one man's meat is another man's poison - not trying to start a 'my I musical likes are better than yours' type of argument.

And I positively refuse to hate you! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:41 PM

The Shadows were 'of their time' and, at that time, they were as good as anything else and better than most. But time moves on and things change. What was good yesterday tends, with the passage of time, to become passé, that's the way it's always been and always will be. It's absolutely pointless comparing artists of one musical era skill-wise with those of subsequent eras, because styles change, skills improve and everything moves on.

I began playing guitar in 1961, and was in my first band in 1962, just before the Beatles broke. I remember, up to that point, being a rabid Shadows fan and playing shedloads of their stuff but, with the advent of Beatlemania and the 'Liverpool sound', the world changed for ever. We all abandoned the Shadows/Ventures style and moved on to the dry, R&B sound that we were hearing on record and the radio - a different style demanding different skills. And it's turned many times since, each time bringing new sounds, different skills and changing tastes.

Long may it be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:06 PM

I was never a fan of The Shadows, at the time, but - in the UK they were hugely influential.
Indeed, they were a great way to get into rock guitar.
The lead and rhythm parts weren't that difficult to at least work out the notes.
But, as I said not my cup of tea!
And, I hated their silly dance moves! Far too twee.

When the Dutch rock band Focus emerged around 1970, I remember thinking, "Now, That's what the Shadows should have been doing.
But there again, I bet Focus's wonderful guitar player Jan Ackerman had listened to Hank quite a bit!

Sylvia

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 02:09 PM

No it doesnt it doesnt it doesnt it doesnt it doesnt

Yore a beest Bakwudzmn & I HATE you...

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

"the shadows were technically ok but just fecking boring, start comparing them to hendrix or to jazz musicians or blues musicians they are soulless."

Well, a concertina-squeezer should know all about 'fecking boring' and 'soulless'. Describes a concertina perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 01:31 PM

So then Good Soldier Schweik, no point asking you how many Adam Faith and Boby Vee records
you got in your collection ????

You say 'naff' like that's a bad thing ???

You don't quite get the hang of 'pop' really, do you ...........????


Mind you, Hendrix weren't too bad when he made the effort to knock the odd 3.00 minute pop single like "Fire" together !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

"We are all still rational & mature enough grown ups
to continue cherishing his old classic pop hits with The Shadows"

Of course, and bloody good records they were too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 01:07 PM

i think the shadows are naff and cliff even naffer, however it does not alter the fact that his name[cliff] should not have been mentioned before a trial.the shadows were technically ok but just fecking boring, start comparing them to hendrix or to jazz musicians or blues musicians they are soulless.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 12:37 PM

So.. basically then.. even if Cliff is proven to be the evil bastard spawn of Satan;
and sent down to roast in Hell for all eternity.
We are all still rational & mature enough grown ups
to continue cherishing his old classic pop hits with The Shadows......

Despite the inevitable mob mentality social pressure to burn all his records
and erase his complete existence from all collective cultural memories...???

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 11:58 AM

"I think you'll find it was a Vox AC30. I seem to recollect he also used a Baby Binson, sometimes on its own, sometimes with the Meazzi Echomatic."

Yes I think you are right, I hadn't realised that the changeover to AC30 was in 1958, and I never knew that there was a one speaker AC30 before they changed to 2 x 12" celestion blues - I have 2 of these in a cabinet which I may use one of these days!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 11:31 AM

Further change of lione from the cops - erm, we did tell you, but expected you to keep it schtumm. wft?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

I think you'll find it was a Vox AC30. I seem to recollect he also used a Baby Binson, sometimes on its own, sometimes with the Meazzi Echomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM

I used to have the Expresso Bongo EP in subliminal mono, there was a great instrumental from the then Drifters - did Hank have "that sound" yet - Fender Strat/Meazzi Echo/Vox AC15??

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM

Now the cops have turned on the Beeb wanting to know how they learned of the raid as nobody on the Force told them...
Me, I reckon Caversham might know summat.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 03:51 PM

An interesting perspevtive on his music career from the Guardian, 2009.

The Guardian, 2009 

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

Thank you Les, you are one of the most civil members, and I didn't think you were being "smart" at all.

PFR.....I saw "Expresso Bongo" several times when it first came out...thought it was terrific....specially the topless dancing girls! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

Thanks Ake,I wasn't being 'smart' i was just curious because I hade heard of the Elm Park Guest House i other contexts

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 10:30 AM

Wherever this investigation leads - the outcome of any trials, and sentencing if found guilty.

This now just about ends all hope for the search for an archive uncut widescreen print and special edition Blu-ray
[restoring all deleted scenes] of "Expresso Bongo"

One of the lost 'holy grails' for serious aficionados of 1950s British lurid Rock'n'Roll era culture.

This recent irrational hysterical knee-jerk erasing of convicted celebrity sex offenders from cultural history benefits nobody.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 09:06 AM

You are quite correct Les, there is little hard evidence available, as much seems to have been concealed by the "establishment", but there is plenty in Mayomicks link which is worrying.

If you Google Elm Park Guest House, there are links to previous investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 08:46 AM

The Times reckons that as well. if it is, its wrong. after all its a bit like putting an ad in the paper, and saying -anybody gotanything we can stick this bloke with.

every police officer, prison guard, teacher, doctor, nurse in the country probably has somebody somwhere hating their guts over a perceived injustice.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 08:41 AM

Akenaton -

"Apparently there was a homosexual sex ring operating from the Elm Park address, and Cliff Richard was a frequent visitor. The ring specialised in young boys, and contained some very unsavoury characters."

Links to evidence by anychance?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

As it is unlikely that searching the property will uncover anything, the purpose of the raid (and the cameras and helicopters) would seem to be maximum publicity in order to encourage complainants to come forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 08:10 AM

The only thing that the police could hope to find is dodgy porn on a hard-drive, and, as Cliff would have considered a police raid a possibility, the chances of finding anything would be zero!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 08:08 AM

I will contrast it with genocide which is of great consequence - if he has touched somebody up, I'm sure it was with his or her consent, be realistic they are usually up for it - therefore of no consequence, and it only seems to be time wasting PC idiots in this country that have nothing better to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:18 AM

With so many previous 'celebrities' having been charged, if Cliff Richard has anything to hide he has had plenty of time to make sure there is nothing incriminating in any of his properties.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:17 AM

Child abuse should always be exposed, no matter who commits the offence....no point in contrasting it with genocide.

Apparently there was a homosexual sex ring operating from the Elm Park address, and Cliff Richard was a frequent visitor. The ring specialised in young boys, and contained some very unsavoury characters.

This seems to be on a completely different level from what we have seen in the Rolf Harris case.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 05:35 AM

Just been reading about the Belgian genocide in Congo area, at the time "owned" by King Leopold II of Belgium - 12-15 million murdered was it?? which rather puts things in perspective about the media's current obsession with an alledged dark side to Cliff Richard, and no doubt others in the future!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 05:16 AM

Did you know that "Travelling Light" was released in Spain as "The Light That Travels " ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 03:10 AM

Certainly wouldn't argue against Billy, PFR - he was a great singer and sick-makingly good-looking. RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 03:07 AM

Good Soldier Schweik - talking of British rock singers - said:

"hes behind john lennon, eric burdon,mick jagger,long john baldry, paul maccartney, keith relf"

Not a very stimulating list! To a man, singing in American accents! Or, trying too!

I remember speaking to Eric Burdon, in 1964, and being struck by is rich - and strong - Geordie accent. I was even more struck - an hour or so later - when that accent totally disappeared to be replaced by a voice that sounded somewhere between John Lee Hooker and Muddy Waters.

Long John Baldry's singing voice was embarrassingly phoney.

And, Mick Jagger! Dreadful!

If we are going to quote British singers who use American accents - and most of them do! - then Paul Rodgers - to my ears - does it without sounding phoney.( the opposite is Elton John!)

Cliff - as he developed - again to my ears - did adopt more of an English sound and that is to his credit!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:48 AM

I though in British justice you are innocent until proved guilty."
correct, the reality is that the media[in this case the net] name people before they are tried,the same thing happens all the time, some years ago in my area there was a local murder case a woman called sophie du plantier was murdered and a suspect who was never charged and who was therefore innocent, has had his life ruined by being named.