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England's National Musical-Instrument?

Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM
Lonesome EJ 01 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM
TheSnail 01 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM
Surreysinger 01 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM
Surreysinger 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM
Will Fly 01 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM
Will Fly 01 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM
TheSnail 01 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM
Derby Ram 01 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM
TheSnail 01 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM
Joseph P 01 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Dad Van Fisk 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM
Joseph P 30 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:32 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,Dad Van Fisk 30 Sep 08 - 04:59 AM
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Hmm. Having listened to a selection of the aforementioned on YouTube, I can't say that I hear anything beyond what sounds like each individual's variations on what are generally considered to be American folk guitar styles. Apparently heavily influenced, as you say, Volgandon.

"English style?" Hard to recognize anything that would distinctly characterize it as such.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

If someone were to say English style, I would immediately think of Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, Jansch and Renbourne and Nic Jones, who were all heavily influenced by American styles too.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

". . . having enjoyed the guitar being played in an English style. . . ."   [from WAV's website]

WAV, I have been studying the guitar, its history and its various techniques, I have been playing the instrument since the early 1950s, and I have taught the guitar in both private lessons (classical and folk) and in classes (folk) since the late 1950s.   My life has been inextricably linked with the guitar all these years. I recognize that there are a few distinct regional styles of playing, such as flamenco in Andalusia, Mexican folk styles (making use of some flamenco techniques such as free use of the rasgueado), alternating bass or "finger-picking" styles that developed in the southern U. S. along with blues styles, and, of course, various jazz and pop styles. But I can't recall every hearing any style of guitar playing that I could identify as an "English style."

Can you direct me to any guitarists who play specifically "English style," or any CDs where I may hear this style?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM

In that case you are an idiot. The fiddle is VERY closely associated with England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM

Noooo, Deeeyvid - I'm a character in an everyday story of countryfolk - as any good Englishman (and especially Northumbrian)well knooooooows.

Anyweeey, there's only one poster of rubbish on this forum, Deeeeyvid - and it's not the Prudhoe Pixie.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

The Sousaphone is a "wearable" helicon or "Saxhorn" (a brass instrument very popular in central and eastern Europe) originally patented in Paris in 1845 by Adolph Sax. John Philip Sousa asked the C. G. Conn company to design a helicon or tuba that would be easier to hold and to march with.

So it's an American variation of a European instrument. To categorize the Sousaphone as an "American instrument" is rather like categorizing Lord Randal or Barbara Allen as "American ballads" because variants of them have been collected in the southern mountains in the United States. Both of these ballads came to the U. S. because they were carried here in the heads of immigrants from the British Isles, where they originated—as far as we know; variants of Lord Randal have been found all over continental Europe and the Scandinavian countries.

No, most things that exist today, both cultural and technological, are the result of evolution, which involves the mixing of cultures and the resultant cross-fertilization. Biologists have long since recognized the value of biological diversity and "hybrid vitality." Anthropologists also recognize a similar process in the meeting and blending of cultures. "Pure" strains, both biological and cultural, tend to weaken and fade away.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

And so said I, Volgadon - you even argue when we agree! If it's on the list here Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM or here, I'll eat my English flute.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

And Wav - I repeat, the fiddle IS an Italian instrument, that I happen to like, for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

"Anyweey, Deeeeeeyvid, I still think you're a reeeeeeeycist. OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO!!!" (Ruth Archer)...is the one behind this nickname, and the poster of such rubbish, really the director of Sidmouth Festival, as Ralphie said here Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM?
And Volgadon - I repeat, the sousaphone IS an American instrument, that I happen to like, for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

Correct, WAV.

The name on my birth certificate is Donald Richard Firth. My father's grandfather came from Scotland (actually, Orkney) and my mother's parents came from Sweden. I sign legal documents with my full name, but Don Firth is the name my friends and acquaintances know me by, the name I am known by as a singer, and the by-line I use for my writing.

I am willing to take the blame when and if I mess up, but when I do something dazzlingly brilliant, I want full credit. Therefore, I use my real name.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

WAV, I'll repeat this slowly: Ruth Archer is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. If there are real Ruth Archers in the world, no doubt they've had their characters blackened far more comprehensively by the Ambridge Dairymaid herself and her adulterous meanderings with the cowman.

Anyweey, Deeeeeeyvid, I still think you're a reeeeeeeycist. OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

"To Ruth Archer and Joseph P!: let me put it another way - if one prefers to use a web nickname (and I've nothing against that) why use someone else's real name?"

Just the same as if someone chose the nickname Jim Bergerac or Victor Meldrew.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

And the recorder is of Continental origin, the cittern is German, the tabor possibly comes from North Africa via Spain, and the violin/fiddle is Italian.
The sousaphone and the tuba were widely used in trad jazz, which was very popular for many decades in Britain, and which your parents probably grew up listening to. It's probably as English as morris dancing.
To repeat-

Recorder- Continental Europe.
Cittern- German.
Fiddle- Italian.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

The Melon Whistle?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM

To Ruth Archer and Joseph P!: let me put it another way - if one prefers to use a web nickname (and I've nothing against that) why use someone else's real name? One of the very few using a real name here is Don Firth, but I think that IS his...Don?
And the sousaphone is American, Volgadon.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Sousaphone?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM

Pink oboe?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

"Just demonstrating the notes and fingering silently, you understand. "
Which instrument would that be on?? Concertina ? Recorder? Mongolian noseflute??


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM

"Ooh yes, tennis-playing morris dancers"
Would that be 5000 of them ... are we back on track for the topic again ... no nay never......


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

Sounds good to me - and they'll be wearing clogs.

Sorry - must dash - off to video myself playing through the chords of "The Glory Of Love", with the sound turned off. Just demonstrating the notes and fingering silently, you understand.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Ooh yes, tennis-playing morris dancers. Lovely idea, are they holding stotties and mead in the other hand and is it by the shade of a willow tree?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Morris dancing AND tennis - at the same time? Sounds fab to me. Would they wear tennis kit or morris kit, do you think? A rapper outfit wouldn't even need rackets. Or should that be raquets?

Well...it's no dafter than anything else in this thread...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM

And I dare say that radio drama is a far greater part of people's own good culture than morris dancing and tennis.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

I like it that WAV is concerned that the "real" Ruth Archer might have her good character besmirched by being confused with me...Oooooh Noooooo!!!! But it sounds like WAV isn't actually aware that Ruth is a fictional character, and it's just possible that he doesn't even have a peripheral awareness of God's Own Radio Drama.

And he calls himself English!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

I play the English concertina because it suits me to do so. I enjoy making music with it. I admire the playing of those who are for more expert than me. I do NOT play it in order to enhance my feeling of national pride or express my patriotism.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM

Agreed Mr Ram.
But....does any of this really matter?
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

I'm clearly a bit late with this thread - but surely The Concertina being the only English invented chromatic musical instrument - and I'm with Diane here - there is only one contender - and there are arguably more players now than there have ever been - it's popularity is definitely on the up. What more qualification are they looking for?

Nothing to debate as far as I'm concerned....:-)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

WAV
When you have achieved what Ruth has achieved, then, start casting stones.
Are you the festival director for next years Sidmouth Festival?.... No, You're not.
So, shut up, and get a job.

Your biggest problem is that she might book some "foreign acts"
God Forfend such a heinous scenario....
The very thought that Englands Premier Festival might play host to those "Dusky Heathens"

Even if they are Scandinavian!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM

It seems that the fictional Ruth Archer is rather more famous than our very own real one.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

Some of us don't google Ruth Archer in a stalker-esque manner, or do we? (da-de-da-de-da-de-daa- da-de-da-de-daaa-daaa....)

Rubbish with a capital R? Must be special, mind you when it comes to rubbish, what about the racist crap that you publish, and what about your constant blabbering on about what our good tradition is. You have NO IDEA what makes up the cultures that exist in the geographical area that is England, let alone what would make the 'situation' better.

For those of us (such as myself) who do take an active part in continuing an unbroken and evolving tradition, your views are nothing but damaging. Ruth, on the other hand, seems to be taking an active part in developing and promoting folk music in England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM

WAV.
I think you need to lie down and have a little nap.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

R for Rubbish, i.e.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

...while we are on names, Ruth Archer, I have a bone to pick: given that you've tolk us it's a nickname, why not just put Ruth R., e.g., such that the real Ruth Archers, found in search engines etc., have no chance of being bothered by some of the Rubish you come up with?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

Sounds a bit like Tina C ... it isn't,I suppose?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

Aha ... I see!!! :-)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

I don't think he was confused - he seemed quite certain that he wanted to wear frocks and sing country and western songs.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

"Wav, .....Do your research"
Therein lies our problem ?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

"I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural."

Wav, the balalaika is derived from primitive stringed instruments of Central Asia, not from the lute. The bouzouki too.
Do your research.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

Now I'm intrigued ... what was his name derived from - or was he just confused?

Mind you, there are other examples I suppose ... Shirley Crabtree (otherwise known as Big Daddy in wrestling circles in the 60s and 70s), Marion Morrison (John Wayne... am I right in that one??) ... and the conductor of the choir I sang with for many years is named Hilary ......

Ok, Ruth ... I stand to be corrected ... strangely Ralphie hasn't made any observation on the matter at all... I await some verbal castigation in trepidation, whilst trying to practice the tina (with both hands) in a fearless manner!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

I used to know a bloke called Tina.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

One that I thought may have been noted in its absence (or perhaps it was way back - B.A.) is the harmonica/mouth organ - I have two mini encyclopedias and both say Wheatstone invented it, as well as the concertina; however, all the websites I've checked say Germany.
...and, like a koala after a good dose of eucalyptus, I, frankly, have been a tad slow to fathom that WSK may be ex-Insane Beard/ex-etc.?..


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 AM

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown)

Obviously on Planet Walkaboutsverse these instruments are equal in terms of cultural and historical significance. But if he'd bothered to do any research he'd find out that, as WSK says, the latter is a modern invention by Julian Goodacre, and a bloody good bagpipe it is too - see here. Please note, WAV - the Leicestershire is available as both in mouth blown AND bellows blown designs. The one I play is bellows blown, and is ideal for mostly European early and folk music, and even singing, though not many bagpipers sing with their instruments, even those of bellows blown instruments. Every English county once had its own bagpipe - for the Lyra-Viol there was given a bagpipe tuning and melodies alluding to the Lancashire Bagpipes, which are also mentioned in connection with the Preston Guild pageantry of the early 18th century, and as late as 1722 mention is made of a very merry wedding in Preston where there played seven bagpipers!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

"To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why)"

The answer should be obvious. He is part of the cell that recruited Blinky Bill, possibly even his handler.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM

I think my Hohner Pokerwork sounds mighty nice accompanying morris dance (others may disagree!), cant say we use a pipe and tabor anymore. Shame? No. Melodeon & fiddle are much better.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

"To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why) via Woody: I've learned quite a lot about my country both at home and while out-and-about - see the many such poems here."

SO HAVE I, Wav. Doesn't make me English!!!!!!!

"'romantic pereception of the Scotland that never was, a Scotland full of kilted wildmen (wearing their clan tartan, naturally) with big claymores and bagpipes.'

I think it sounds quite fun. "

Fun, yes, real, no.

"The oldest pipes whose existence we know of from Scotland (and England) weren't like any of these; they were a common pan-European type best known these days in the early music scene."

Which remain in use in parts of Poland and the Balkans.

"INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND
Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment, the Stylophone (a recent one), Brass, Bells (to some, England's national instrument), as well as Spoons (from here)."

Still no guitar and banjo? Nasty prejudice rears it's ugly head.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:32 AM

In my haste I forgot to say... LOL at Ruth's interjection ... not a musical instrument I ever aspired to I have to say ... but is it English???


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM

And that's 400, I reckon!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:30 AM

Ralphie ... the KING of tinas .... should that be QUEEN... how can you call an instrument a tina and then ascribe it masculine gender?? Go for MONARCH .... ok... yeah...back to practice wench, I know!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM

Thanks for that Mr Fisk.
We'll just have to wait for Mr WAVs view as to whether it's real poetry or not!
My breath is bated, awaiting confirmationion from his WAV-ness.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:59 AM

It's raining today
and I'm just about to forget the train window girl
That wonderful day we met
She smiles through the smoke from my cigarette
It's raining today
But once there was summer and you
And dark little rooms
And sleep in late afternoons
Those moments descend on my windowpane

I've hung around here too long
Listenin' to the old landlady's hard-luck stories
You out of me me out of you
We go like lovers
To replace the empty space
Repeat our dreams to someone new

It's raining today
And I watch the cellophane streets
No hang-ups for me
'Cause hang-ups need company
The street corner girl's a cold trembling leaf
It's raining today
It's raining today


(Noel Engel, aka Scott Walker)


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