England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:12 AM

Indeed. But then, looking back at WAV's list...

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other keyboards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute

...they're all chordal instruments apart from the whistles. Apparently 'English traditional' means what he says it does, except when it doesn't.

But we already know it's impossible to argue with this guy. A reminder for anyone still tempted...

WAV: [the recorder]'s certainly been played in this land for a long time; and, at the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival, there is a competition for whistles AND recorders.

Volgadon: I see that the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival also has a competition for highland bagpipes

WAV: Volgadon - I do like the Scottish Highland Pipes but disagree with Rothbury, ENGLAND, on that one.

It's all evidence for WAV's argument - unless the evidence doesn't support him, in which case he's right and the evidence is wrong.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:09 AM

"I play the McCann Duet. If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?"

Waving ? Making obscure* gestures ? Being musically redundant ??

*spelling mistake ??

"(McCann Duet.....look it up)"

Here you go!

And just in case WAV should come back on your spelling of the name,Ralphie, perhaps it should be pointed out by a nerd like me that for years the name was spelled the way you do, whereas in recent years the more recognised spelling adopted is the one in the article - which it is now known is the way the revered Professor Maccann spelled his name. A rose by any other name, and all that ... still a great instrument however you spell it. Not England's National musical instrument ... but I suppose actually an English instrument (unless Maccann proves to have been Polish, Scottish or Irish ????)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?

Playing with your iPod?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Oldguit
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, if so, apologies.

How about "spoons" I don't know if they are played anywhere else.

Oldguit Arr

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

Sorry.
That should read "The Nice but Dim Knight"

As for WAV waxing lyrical re Concertinas.
I play the McCann Duet. If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?

(McCann Duet.....look it up)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:48 AM

Message to the Snail.

"And I took out my IPod for to play my love a tune"

Brilliant!
(Should be added to the Bright but Dim Knight thread)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,a still cookieless ruth
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:07 AM

guest above: me.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM

I hope IB is still looking in. I really want to go for a drink with him sometime. So long as it's not feckin' mead. Mind you, mead is as scarce in the pubs round here as are bells in the streets, citterns in barber shops and 'pottage of the day.'

Newcastle sounds great. I'm going up soon for the first time. It sounds like a wonderfully vibrant city. I look forward to looking in on the folk degree and spending time with some great English singers and musicians who, like IB, have forgotten more than WAV will ever know about the English tradition.

Btw, wavey davey: Martin Carthy also said that the only harm you can do to a folk song is not to sing it. Given his participation in projects like the Imagined Village, I'd guess his vision of England, and of what is acceptable to do with English music, is a lot closer to IB's than to yours, and if I know the Carthys, no member of the family would want their words hijacked and misinterpreted to support the sort of xenophobia you espouse. Eliza has told you as much herself, and I don't think her dad would feel any differently.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:25 PM

"Lots of us would really like to read them"

GUEST Terry.
WAV doesn't do irony. He really doesn't get it.
QED. WAV is not English!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM

"the streets round here are packed with kids playing their bells all day and all night"

Didn't you have a typo or two there?

The streets round here are packed with kids playing (with) their balls all day and all night...

:-P

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

and somehow got mostly distinctions for my essays!

WAV, is there any chance you could upload these essays to somewhere on the 'net? (There are loads of hosting places)

Lots of us would really like to read them, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

From: WalkaboutsVerse

and somehow got mostly distinctions for my essays!

You say that, but then you say a lot of things that are patently untrue. Judging by what and how you write, you're being economical with the truth.


It was actually IB (above) who found that Wiki has England's nat. inst. as the bell

Yep the streets round here are packed with kids playing their bells all day and all night. How could I have missed it?


are you the Woody I've seen/heard on the NE folk scene once or twice?

How should I know?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

The shakey egg.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

Are you calling me a woody Englishman, Woody?! And as for, yawn, "If you did ever attend Anthropology classes you must have slept through them." (W)...and somehow got mostly distinctions for my essays! It was actually IB (above) who found that Wiki has England's nat. inst. as the bell, and quite a few agreed on that (above). Also, curiousity killed/muddied the cat, but are you the Woody I've seen/heard on the NE folk scene once or twice?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

"Hmmm. Not sure that the symbolism works."

Oh, yes, it will, just make sure you pack fresh batteries with the condoms...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM

On the banks of red roses my love and I sat down
And I took out my iPod to play my love a tune....

Hmmm. Not sure that the symbolism works.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

BA = Bugger All

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

You've ALL got it wrong!

England's National Musical-Instrument:


TA DA!


from the 50/60s to today - Transistor radio, morphing to Walkman, then CD Walkman, now iPod and Blackberry...


:-P

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

From: WalkaboutsVerse
Woody - apart from the remnants of my Australian accent, I'm culturally English

Hee hee hee. All together now - "Oh no you're not!" You're a fake. Delusional.


Regarding the BA. A degree is supposed to develop you're skills in study, analysis and reasoned argument. I see no evidence that you've achieved anything there given that your postings tend toward the unreasoned, ignorant and simplistic.

Regarding the anthropology bit... well surely the bedrock of Anthropology is the attempt to understand humanity objectively (as far as is possible) without imposing your own subjective prejudices and preconceptions. You've come to England, but rather than using your "qualification" to help you understand the culture, you've come with a set of preconceived ideas and prejudices that bear no relation to the reality, and then you seek to impose them on others. If you did ever attend Anthropology classes you must have slept through them.


Back to the original subject. As another poster said, if we had an English national instrument, we'd know about it. If we don't know about it, it's hardly a national instrument.

There is however one instrument which can be found in most English musical genres over a period of hundreds of years, as at home in modern English Folk, Classical, Jazz, Pop, Rock as it was in 18th century dance music. It's called the fiddle, but it's not specifically English.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe P at work somewhere else
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Sorry that was me, it seems that despite my various qualifications and experience working with a wide range of IT packages, as well as my Key Skills qualification(!) I forgot to put my name.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:35 AM

But practicing what you think is English culture does not make you culturally English.

And I have a Silver Swimming Certificate, a lot of Olympians probably earned this prestigious award at some point in their career.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM

Thanks for those details, Jack.
Ralphie - "WAV
Just so that I understand.
Please define this wierd term for me.
I haven't come across it before.

E Trad.

(That should shut you up)"...not from answering:
E. for English; Trad. for traditional...used mainly to describe English traditional SONGS.

Woody - apart from the remnants of my Australian accent, I'm culturally English: my repertoire is English; I play the recorder/English flute; I keep fit with Lawn tennis; my staple is pottages; I've read widely from the canon of English verse; I grow hedera helix; and I think I know England's geography, history, etc., quite well. (Also, as said, I did Australianise during my 26 years there - but not that much: occasionally people there would note my English background, and they certainly would nowadays, if and when I make a VISIT to Aus.).
The formal courses I've mentioned (only when defending strong criticism of my character/abilities) are true; and a Bachelor of Arts Degree is meant to be relevant to lots of occupations (human resources, supervision, etc.), rather than just the arrangement of burgers.
Also, "no significance unless you work in a factory." (Woody)...one of the four is actually an Advanced Certificate in Manufacturing Technology (= a HNC, HR people here have told me), but some of its production-management modules were taken by people in other fields, such as from airlines.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,banksie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

Sugwash wrote: Let's adopt the banjo as England's national instrument.

Well, there is a history. There were several English companies making banjos in the 19th century - Windsor was just one popular make.

My mother used to play in a banjo band in the early 20th century, playing dance tunes such as Polkas and Jigs, so it wasn't `art' music. I still have some of the sheet music, published by John Alvey Turner (Turner's Banjo Budget series). Titles include The Fusilade Polka for two banjos(by Harry Nicholls) , and the Skipping Rope Dance (another Polka, by Herbert Ellis). And I still have her banjo, though I'm damned if I can play it as well as she did, even late in life. One more thing to practice, I guess :-)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM

From: GUEST,Joe
...Sometimes I doubt your academic credentials.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that doubts the veracity of WAVs qualifications. If he does have a BA he must have forgotten pretty much all that he learned.

From what I've seen most of the things he says about himself don't fully stand up to scrutiny...

e.g.
He goes on about English culture but he's culturally Australian

He pontificates about music but from his recordings & opinions he hardly qualifies for the title 'amateur'.

He goes on about his 'technical certificates' but they turn out to be of no significance unless you work in a factory.Using his standards I've got 12 "technical certificates". Does that make me an academic or highly qualified - no it does not.


...Presumably in time we'll find out that "BA" stands for "burger arrangement".

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:25 AM

WAV
Just so that I understand.
Please define this wierd term for me.
I haven't come across it before.

E Trad.

(That should shut you up)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sugwash
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

Oops, Rob Murch is an exponent of the English banjo style.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

"Logically, Volgadon, the Rothbury Trad. Mus. Fest. board see both as trad. instruments - as do I...whether there should be a Scottish pipes comp within the borders of England is another matter."

Actually, logicaly, I think that they see them as SIMILAR instruments which can play the same sort of music, so why not.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

Going back a bit to Insane Beard's comments about the recorder as a folk instrument. There is something in that position, but it suffers from the problem that it was mainly the bourgeoisie that documented what they were doing with them. Here are a few data points outwith the world of the English diarist.

- The recorder is listed in a chronicle of the reign of Mary Queen of Scots as one of the instruments played by a drunken rabble outside her window; she detested the whole lot of them (and in her customary Red Queen style, subsequently created a law imposing the death penalty for street festivities). Somehow I doubt they were playing Sermisy and Binchois.

- The Georgian salamuri is a type of recorder, and as far as we know it has always been used as both a folk and art music instrument.

- One of the oldest recorders extant is from a time and place which has no known art music: Rhodes under the Knighta of St John, around 1500. I noticed this thing a few years ago in a museum there (nobody before me had spotted the octaving thumbhole). It's rather crudely made from an animal bone, about the same proportions as my Susato G sopranino. (I told Anthony Rowland-Jones about it and he wrote a note in a recorder magazine; I left it to others to argue with the rather unhelpful museum about getting it properly measured and photographed). The Knights' sphere of influence extended from Portugal to Scotland to Egypt to the Caucasus, so this instrument could have come from anywhere in Europe, but it sure doesn't *look* like an art music instrument (no decoration at all, no sign of lathe work) and we know of no art music it could have played. What does that leave?

- Several different sizes of recorder are mentioned in the adverts at the back of one of the Gows' Scottish music collections of the early 19th century; you could buy them from the Gow & Shepherd shop. As far as I know, this is the last mention of it in print in Britain before the revival nearly 100 years later. You couldn't buy printed music for them at that point, so what would people have played on them? Not much option but music like that in the Gows' books, surely.

- The Scottish recorder manuscripts of the early 18th century seem not to be the work of the leisured elite, but of working musicians. They were *really serious* about getting these tunes right, John Dow in particular. These manuscripts are much like those the Village Music Project has documented. Not the sort of thing an illiterate ploughman could have produced, but quite likely made by a player he danced to. (Probably the recorder was a second instrument, though. Thomson seems to have been a trumpeter, and Dow focuses on very complex versions of song tunes for listening rather than dances, the dances would probably have been played on the fiddle).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

Logically, Volgadon, the Rothbury Trad. Mus. Fest. board see both as trad. instruments - as do I...whether there should be a Scottish pipes comp within the borders of England is another matter.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sugwash
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM

Let's adopt the banjo as England's national instrument. That will give those of other countries a coherent focus for their dislike of the English. I post as a proud Englishman and unapologetic banjo player.

There is a distinct English style of banjo playing, Rob Murch is an admirable proponent of it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

But you are saying that if they have an competition for a certain instrument, said instrument is part of the tradition. Merely following your own logic.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

"'Speaking of which, Sailor Ron, I agree with you in part - but you forgot all about the accompaniment of English folk dances. ' as a response to:
'I would state that the traditional instument for English folk song is none. '
Analyse the sentence, notice the word 'song', playing a tune to accompany dance is a different matter altogether. Sometimes I doubt your academic credentials." (Joe)...what's the title of the thread we are on, Joe?

Volgadon - I do like the Scottish Highland Pipes but disagree with Rothbury, ENGLAND, on that one.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

"And, once more, at The Rothbury Traditional Music Festival, they have a competition for whistles AND recorders."

They also include one for highland bagpipes, so I assume that is E. trad as well.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Curious Scot
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Try reading your wiki again wav. - It says - It is doubtful that the ballad is English, although it is popularly considered so. The oldest lyrics which exist show the song to be of Scottish origin.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:59 AM

"Bit like the violin then." (IB perhaps in a rush)

That was actually TheSnail, WAV. Otherwise, I've said all I intend to say on these threads - life really is too short to be wasting time on an arrogant attention-seeking racist buffoon who has neither the humility to listen nor yet the nous to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYlA4q1IcB0

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to discuss any of the matters above, please PM me - I won't be looking in here again.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

'Speaking of which, Sailor Ron, I agree with you in part - but you forgot all about the accompaniment of English folk dances. ' as a response to:

'I would state that the traditional instument for English folk song is none. '

Analyse the sentence, notice the word 'song', playing a tune to accompany dance is a different matter altogether. Sometimes I doubt your academic credentials.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

"WAVs theory of Monoculturalism" (Ralphie)...ridiculous...I love our WORLD being multicultural.

You love the WORLD being multicultural, you just want our COUNTRY to be monocultural. Correct?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

Mea Maxima Culpa.
I know I shouldn't, but........
I Quote....WAV

"I play and sing, just the tune"

Don't make me laugh.

I have listened to your recordings.
You can't play to save your life.
You can't sing in any recognisible key known to man.
If your recordings are supposed to represent quintessential Englishness, I'm off to Australia.
WAV....JUST GO AWAY.
And learn some humility.

Spaw, when you read this. Please don't go to WAVs MySpace page.
I would worry for your health.

PS FYI WAV MWR lives in England, and is very welcome.
You live in England, and I don't think the same can be said for you.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

"We could argue forever, to what end?" (Ralphie)...awareness...a very well known and respected English folkie, Martin Carthy, dared to say, on the BBC, "English don't know who they are any more."
"WAVs theory of Monoculturalism" (Ralphie)...ridiculous...I love our WORLD being multicultural.
Curious Scot - I've seen "The Water is Wide" given English origin in a few places, and, in Wiki., as you say, Scottish. Certainly, there is now a Scottish and an English version.

"Other examples abound, including our very own Walkaboutsverse who wields his plastic tenor in a manner that is most un-virtuosic, but hardly traditional," (IB)...whatever the quality, I play and then sing just the TUNE, which IS traditional...Baroque playing, however, certainly would involve much more ornamentation.
And, once more, at The Rothbury Traditional Music Festival, they have a competition for whistles AND recorders.
"Bit like the violin then." (IB perhaps in a rush)...I said in terms of their capabilities of mimicking the human voice.

Speaking of which, Sailor Ron, I agree with you in part - but you forgot all about the accompaniment of English folk dances.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM

I'm just amazed by the knots people tie themselves into

It's you that's tying the knots here, TheSnail - thus obfuscating a point that was simple enough - i.e. that, whatever other points of commonality the two instruments may or may not have, the violin became a folk instrument whereas the recorder did not. What the recorder is now of course is a different issue altogether, other instruments likewise; as SailorRon says above, all as valid,or invalid depending on your personal view... its not the instrument, but how it is used that matters.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM

Ron said:"My own view is, its not the instrument, but how it is used that matters"

Absolutely, Ron - agree with you 100%... mind you, I can think of a couple of excellent uses for the recorder!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:35 AM

NOTHING like the violin?

The violin wasn't developed for chromaticism and virtuosity? It's never been a solo orchestral instrument?

Don't take me too seriously, IB. I'm just amazed by the knots people tie themselves into and the tosh they talk in the totally unnecessary task of proving WAV wrong. He must be delighted at all the attention he receives.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM

Without going into the 'ancient history' of English folk instruments, I would state that the traditional instument for English folk song is none. With very few exceptions, as far as I am aware,traditional singers sang unaccompanied. So England's National Musical-Instrument, as far as folk song goes is the voice! If 'folk song' is to accompanied does it matter then with what instrument? To my mind it does not;electric guitar, banjo,cello,concertina, church organ,Black Sea fiddle, aye and recorder are all as valid,or invalid depending on your personal view.My own view is, its not the instrument, but how it is used that matters.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:02 AM

Well, the violin didn't reach its apotheosis in the orchestra of the high Baroque anyway, neither did it ever die out; it thrives today in every corner of the world in most every conceivable genre of music with distinct repertoires to match - everything from classical Indian Ragas to Bluegrass to Jazz to... everything basically. So, nothing like the recorder at all.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:53 AM

developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque.

Nothing like the violin? Hmmmm.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:45 AM

PS - See here for an example of an orchestral instrument existing autonomously in a true folk context. Now what's what I call folk music!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM

Bit like the violin then.

No, nothing like the violin, which did find its way into folk music, where it found itself a fine home as the fiddle; the recorder, alas, did not.

People in England (and everywhere else) were playing and dancing to recorders, informally and recreationally, for centuries. Look at the iconography for a start. This instrument goes back to long before they had such concepts as "classical".

I think the instrument we're looking at here is the whistle flute, not the recorder which is a different beast altogether. Also most of that iconography is biased towards art music, or else a fanciful depiction of an unlikely folkish Arcadia in which aesthetic considerations outweigh those of ethnomusicology.

just means you're flash at playing your instrument, not that it has to be a concert stage performance. It can just as easily be done in the tavern yard.

The virtuosity I was referring to was that demanded of by the composers of the Baroque - Marcello, Telemann, Vivaldi etc., who were writing increasingly demanding scores for the instrument. See Here & elsewhere. I'm not talking about competent folkish musicianship, rather a technical virtuosity only possible in the various traditions of professional art music. It was for this that the recorder was developed.

Because you can cross-finger it and get sharps & flats, it can't be a folk instrument?   

I'm not saying it can't be, just that it isn't and never was. Latter day exceptions exist of course, such as celebrated Northumbrian Piper Neil Smith who plays as charmingly & as dexterously on his recorder as he does on his pipes, and Terry Wincott of the Amazing Blondel who gives us a flavour of how the recorder might have sounded had it ever been adopted as a folk instrument. Other examples abound, including our very own Walkaboutsverse who wields his plastic tenor in a manner that is most un-virtuosic, but hardly traditional, however so idiosyncratic such an approach might be (and however so philosophically loaded on the part of said practitioner). Otherwise, as a true traditional instrument of true traditional folk music, the recorder is nowhere to be found.

Because it's easier to blow notes out of, it can't be a folk instrument?

The fipple is not the issue here, a feature it has with other flutes and whistles, which are folk instruments, but which aren't recorders. My argument was that because it was easy to blow (unlike a clarinet, oboe or transverse flute) it was the ideal thing for the aristocratic dilettantes, just as it proved the ideal thing for school children before they graduated to a proper woodwind instrument.

Because it was eventually displaced by the transverse flute, this somehow invalidates its prior existence? Recorders were in use for hundreds of years, for a variety of purposes, before they died out. How does the eventual ascendancy of the German flute nullify that past history?

Things do die; in the case of the recorder it was killed off by the transverse flute. If it did have an autonomous existence as a folk instrument, it would have lived on, as other instruments did, but the recorder did not. The recorder was an instrument of art music from the medieval (at a stretch), through the Renaissance to the Baroque. It's 20th century revival by Dolmetsch (et al) was also as an instrument of art music, specifically for the recreation of sophisticated early music, not folk.

Yes - and where do you suppose the books got those tunes from???   From the folks playing them, dancing to them, singing them - some on fipple flutes. If that's not folk music, what is?

Again - fipple flutes are not recorders (though recorders are, of course, fipple flutes - an important distinction). The music might have come from folk traditions, as was the fashion, no doubt because along with the notion of faux-rusticity, such tunes were a lot less demanding for the aristocratic amateur dilettante than, say, a Marcello Sonata. As I said these 18th century recorder tutors were aimed at bourgeois hobbyists - hardly the traditional folk musicians whose rustic repertoires were greedily plundered out of long standing fashionably for same. Whatever the source of the tunes, the social context of the tune books is about as non-folk as you could wish to get, as, indeed, is the recorder.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM

Hi Curious Scot.
Exactly!
Hoist by his own petard, methinks.

This thread started in a fairly interesting way with a discussion on the history and origins of various instruments.
Apart from the Concertina family, which can be reliably traced to Charles Wheatstone. (I'm guessing here, but I'm sure he was well aware of the Chinese developments of Free Reed Instruments, and just adapted ancient technology to fit in with what could best be achieved in the early 19th Century)

As for the other instruments, the jury has to be out as to origins.
We could argue forever, to what end?

No, what this thread is really about, is WAVs theory of Monoculturalism.....(again)

With great trepidation I finally plucked up courage to visit WAVs MySpace page and sampled some of his recordings.
Just to say that it confirmed all my worst fears.

So, is this a first? A thread hi-jacked by its originator?
With a link to his own websites in every post, one has to come to the conclusion that this thread is the work of a delusional fantasist.
The rest of us got sucked in by its title.
Time to let it die now, please.
WAV. (No reply required, or indeed wanted)

Keep practicing. but, I'd leave it a few years before posting your recordings for the world to hear.
Also, you obviously didn't understand my reference to "being sent to Coventry"
Like others here. you've had your fun. I'm out of here.
(I'll read, but not post, and would advise all like minded people to do the same. The alternative.....well!)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Curious Scot
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM

The Water is Wide is Scottish

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM

...and, along with the violin, the redorder/English flute is still one of the best chromatic instruments for mimicking the human voice, including folk singing, so using one for an intro to an English folk song can't be a bad thing to attempt (one of my own attempts, "The Water is Wide," is here); and neither can using one to accompany English dances. Further, due to the polymer technology that IB referred to, it's now one of the least expensive instruments.