England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:39 PM

Tootler - some do refer to the recorder as the English flute, and some have enjoyed my playing of it.

Stu: if/when my spelling on Mudcat is so bad that people can't understand me, I'm sorry - but, as I've also said before, I don't put quite as much care into posts as I do my published poems...does that ring a bell with anyone? (And remember, as well as mistakes, there has also been hacking - which I DO have a PM from a Mod. about. Why don't you lay-back a bit on this matter?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:35 PM

"when some older English people say present social problems are partly due to greatly reduced church attendence, do you believe them?"
Me neither. I don't think going to a big building to talk to an imaginary friend has any bearing on the matter whatsoever.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM

35 pages, 1740 posts, and still no decision, i see.

I'm only here cause Facebook is down...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

Mind you, I've never heard anyone say that either, probably because it's complete bollocks.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

That's not racist, Jack, it's talentist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:45 AM

"when some older English people say present social problems are partly due to greatly reduced church attendence, do you believe them?"

I don't.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:37 AM

Smokey - Youve identified plagiarism in our midst. Listen to Wav's silent recorder demonstration...

I think it's a rip-off of Cage's 4'33"


Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:48 AM

Hmm. . . .   Lots of interesting possibilities there. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 11:58 PM

I'm not entirely convinced he's governed by the laws of gravity Don, it's a tricky business when the sun shines out of your arse. I wonder if you get to meet the person who packs your parachute..

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM

Well, looking over the course list, he could always take up sky-diving.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

He'd do well to practise his rests - they're as important as the notes, after all.. Ask John Cage.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 07:39 PM

saying that some people should cease to practise their culture is racist

I dunno. Saying that WAV ought to give the recorder a rest sounds pretty good to me.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

Sorry, Sure Start is for younger people The link might help with speling probem's etc.,.,

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM

And, Pip, saying that societies suffer when folks cease to practise their culture is neither "racist" nor "dishonest."

That isn't what Pip said, WaV.

Do we really need to practise our culture? Have we not perfected it yet?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM

saying that societies suffer when folks cease to practise their culture is neither "racist" nor "dishonest."

True. However, saying this while also saying that some people should cease to practise their culture is racist. Refusing to address that charge, and carrying on as if it hadn't been made, is dishonest.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM

I carry on and hope to do much more recording next year: hymns with "organ", E. trads U/A, carols both ways, and Enlish flute intros to everything (I shall add them to my Chants from Walkabouts, also, having worked out/written down the tunes this year).

I would recommend a lot less recording and a lot more practice - on getting basics right before you record anything else for public consumption.

So now it's "Enlish" flute is it. For goodness sake use the proper English name for the instrument. It's Recorder. As a recorder player I find your terminology intensely annoying as it is simply plain wrong.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:36 AM

"P. S. As far as the spelling of "practise/practice" is concerned, you'd be better off if you spent less time quibbling about how it should be spelled and much more time doing some." (Don)...it was brought up, again, for the benefit of Stu, who (if you'll pardon the poetry) is relatively keen on such matters - and my (American) Websters still has only "practiCe" in it; but (as for my practiSe on the English flute, keys and vocals) I carry on and hope to do much more recording next year: hymns with "organ", E. trads U/A, carols both ways, and Enlish flute intros to everything (I shall add them to my Chants from Walkabouts, also, having worked out/written down the tunes this year).

And, Pip, saying that societies suffer when folks cease to practise their culture is neither "racist" nor "dishonest."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 04:43 AM

Eliza: Either society suffers when people lose their traditions or it doesn't...

Franks has never answered this one and I don't think he ever will. The logic of his position is that society suffers when English people lose their traditions, but it doesn't suffer - in fact, it benefits - when incomers lose their traditions. In other words, there are two kinds of people, and some are more equal than others. He's never acknowledged this, which is why I call him a dishonest racist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:15 PM

When some older English people say present social problems are partly due to greatly reduced church attendence, do you believe them?

England is a very secular country. To increase church attendance you'll want to encourage a large amount of immigration from more religious parts of the world.

Personally I believe that society's difficulties are best addressed through communication, understanding and people feeling that they have a stake in their community. I don't believe these problems will be solved by alienating or forcing conformity upon minorities, nor do I believe that they'll be much affected by people sitting in a big old building singing songs once a week.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

"Regarding travellers WaV; how exactly do you propose to prevent them going where they please in this Good New Order of yours? "

As you've ignored my question WaV, I'll take the liberty of guessing that your answer, based on your previous statements, would likely be: "Via a stronger UN". Would that not involve the increased use of barbed wire and guns? That has, I think, always been the traditional way of making borders more restrictive; bureaucracy has its limitations. Or maybe you have some alternative strategy? I went through Checkpoint Charlie when it was in operation - believe me, it wasn't pretty.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:21 PM

As with the tenor-recorder/English-flute, Woody, when one plays a tune on the chromatic baritone English concertina (which I still think has a nice homely timbre) they are playing the very tune/top-line melody on the score - which, if also a singer, they can, of course, readily match with their voice. I also like the Anglo, but it is not fully chromatic and, with it's push-pull system, is more likely to develop holes and the associated gushing sounds that slightly spoil the timbre.

What a load of codswallop. For someone who claims a degree in humanities, WAV you are remarkably inarticulate.

To address some of the points.

I play recorder and regularly play in parts so don't always play melody.

Both English and Anglo concertinas can be played chordally - but that is anathema to WAV's world view.

A 30 (or more) button anglo concertina is fully chromatic and is capable of playing in any key - though the more remote keys are not always easy. The last part of your statement about the anglo is utter nonsense.

By the way, you need to do an awful lot of practice before you are even competent on the recorder. Your playing is dreadful. You need to work on timing, breath control and phrasing if you want to be taken seriously. An awful lot of practice is needed.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:57 PM

Poem 149 of 230 is Holy Writ? Why do you keep citing your own doggerel, David?   Well, I answer my own question:   because to you, it is Holy Writ and the only "authority" you have for your pathetic ideas. A bit of a God complex?

Well, no, you do have one more thing. ". . . and, unlike you, I would never refer to a recorder made in Japan as an 'Engrish frute.'" Dud ammunition, old frute. That's because you try to hide your racism behind a lack of a sense of humor (sorry, "humour"). As I pointed out, two friends of Japanese ancestry found it amusing, and John Matsumoto commented that he found your efforts at "PC' not just "precious" in its duplicitous attempt to avoid sounding racist, but indicating underlying racism on your part by your automatically assuming what he would find racist.

And explain, pray tell, just how "present social problems are partly due to greatly reduced church attendence (sic—correct spelling, "attendance")."

Don Firth

P. S. As far as the spelling of "practise/practice" is concerned, you'd be better off if you spent less time quibbling about how it should be spelled and much more time doing some.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

When some older English people say present social problems are partly due to greatly reduced church attendence, do you believe them?

More to the point, WAV - do you?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

Just to explain how a dictionary works WAV. If you have problems Surestart offers literacy courses for the unemployed I believe.

1. Look up practice - result: noun, usual or customary...repetition in order to acqire mastery...

2. Look up practise (or US Practice)result: VERB to do repeatedly in order to gain skill...

Oh by the way that's from Collins...

So in UK English (Collins is published in Glasgow) Practice is the noun, practise is the verb. In your own Scottish choice of dictionary WAV.

The OED my dictionary of choice agrees with this.

English folk music owes more to the Carthy/Watersons than you could ever conceive. You are rude to the emissaries of the culture you choose to espouse.


Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

Minor off-topic English orthographical explanation:

to PRACTISE: verb
a PRACTICE: noun

Easy to remember, Noun starts with N and verb with V.
N is earlier than V in the alphabet as the C in Practice the noun is earlier than the S in Practise the verb.

Re US spelling: this is often the much earlier, Elizabethan spelling rather than the more modern English usage.
Would have thought that, logically, WAV would have preferred this.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

"WAV, how many times do you need to be told that practice and practise are BOTH correct in the UK? One is a noun, the other is a verb. Do you not actually possess a dictionary?" (Ruth)...my Collins says "Practise, US practice..." and my (American) Websters gives no mention of "practiSe" - only "practiCe"...

Poem 149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

And if English folk-degree students have begun to lean more toward their own culture - good.

Further on concertinas, without any hot-air - I've heard Keith Kendrick play both Anglo and English at the same gig; and I've read from both Alistair Anderson on the English, plus Mick Bramich on the Anglo; and, as I say, happen to prefer the former.

Eliza - when some older English people say present social problems are partly due to greatly reduced church attendence, do you believe them?

Don - AGAIN, I hate imperialism: be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other; and, unlike you, I would never refer to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 06:32 AM

RESEARCH, Eliza? That's going it some, isn't it? If it can't be found on a BBC4 programme or in the pages of an abridged encyclopedia, surely it's not worth investigating? That is the Franks Way...

(By the way, I think you'll find that his pronouncements on English song traditions spring from one Joseph Taylor recording he once heard. As it's the only example he ever cites, I can only assume it's his only frame of reference.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 06:20 AM

I'll say it again, David, and use your own pronouncement-either society suffers when cultures lose their traditions, or it doesn't.
If the Gypsies had been restricted in the way you suggest two hundred years ago you might not have any tradition at all to be misusing in your cause, as generations of them have preserved and continued the repertoire while settled people have moved on musically to other, more fashionable things. The Smith family alone deserve your respect, and your research...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:58 AM

Sounds like he once tried a ragged old anglo in a junk shop. I think he just might be hinting at the uneven legato caused by push-pull action, but he obviously hasn't listened to much English song, otherwise he'd know that it's not so much a problem as an opportunity in skilled hands. Maybe his record (I can't believe he's heard more than one) only has English on it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

From: Spleen Cringe

"What the hell does that mean? "Homely?????" Isn't that American for ugly?"

Oi, Woody! My friend's mum (from Redcar if that makes any difference) called me "homely" when I waxed lyrical about the quality of her fruit loaf. If I'd known she was calling me an ugly bastard I'd never have had that second slice!

I'd only worry if that was Redcar, USA. If it is then I'd let her tyres down if I were you ;-)


From: WalkaboutsVerse

... I'd say in total the travels in my collection add up to a about a year on the hoof.

Somebody who goes for a fortnight's holiday every year for 26 years could say exactly the same. Not exactly immersion in a culture is it?


But as for the different matter of nomadically moving home, Eliza, why not just counties rather than countries, from now on?

Like Eliza asked - Are you now saying it's alright for some people to lose their culture?


As with the tenor-recorder/English-flute, Woody, when one plays a tune on the chromatic baritone English concertina (which I still think has a nice homely timbre) they are playing the very tune/top-line melody on the score - which, if also a singer, they can, of course, readily match with their voice. I also like the Anglo, but it is not fully chromatic and, with it's push-pull system, is more likely to develop holes and the associated gushing sounds that slightly spoil the timbre.

I was going to write a detailed reply, but to be honest I can't be bothered. The depth & breadth of your ignorance is truly breath-taking.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 04:18 PM

I can't decide whether WaV's magnum opus is 'The Thoughts of Chairman WaV' or 'Mein Twaddle'..


WaV - I think most people read your stuff through morbid fascination, not because you're sure it contains a good ways (sic) forward for humanity.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM

Wasn't that Hitler's motivation for writing Mein Kampf?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

Same as Ruth's WAV (and the OED). What's your stance on the greengrocers' apostrophe in 'it's'.

Have you any idea whether these (fictional?) concertinas of yours had brass or steel reeds?

Did you know they had reeds?

Did you know they were made of different materials.

I personally think the brass reed has a more Victorian tone suited to top line melody or harmony.

Thanks for reductive Ruth - I was looking for recursive to describe WAV's posts and couldn't bring it back to mind.

English (the language) I love in its many variants and dialects: because I love the poetry of the language I hate sloppy grammar and pretentious imitations of poetry.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 01:26 PM

why not just counties rather than countries, from now on?

Regarding travellers WaV; how exactly do you propose to prevent them going where they please in this Good New Order of yours?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

WAV, how many times do you need to be told that practice and practise are BOTH correct in the UK? One is a noun, the other is a verb. Do you not actually possess a dictionary? This is typical of your half-baked theories which you don't even bother to research. By the way, I had the opportunity to attend a concert by the students on the Newcastle University folk degree course on Monday - it was pleasing to see that your accusations about their musical output being largely non-English was complete bollocks, as I suspected.

Your patronising edicts on the culture of Travellers don't even deserve the dignity of a response.

I love it that you're now repeating yourself within the same post. Your arguments are becoming ever more reductive...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM

"I haven't dropped in for a while - I have better things to do, but haven't we already found out that WAV's "shoestring-travel through about forty countries" amounted to just one summer travelling - i.e. only a day or so in each country?" (JM) - I'd say in total the travels in my collection add up to a about a year on the hoof.

But as for the different matter of nomadically moving home, Eliza, why not just counties rather than countries, from now on?

As with the tenor-recorder/English-flute, Woody, when one plays a tune on the chromatic baritone English concertina (which I still think has a nice homely timbre) they are playing the very tune/top-line melody on the score - which, if also a singer, they can, of course, readily match with their voice. I also like the Anglo, but it is not fully chromatic and, with it's push-pull system, is more likely to develop holes and the associated gushing sounds that slightly spoil the timbre. And thanks for that on the duet's reeds, Ralphie/Nellie...Snail's also back out of his? shell, I see.

Stu - for what it's worth (seemingly a lot to you), I intend to remove the comma after "on"/before "but" in my last poem, above...and what's your stance, then, on "practiS/Ce" others above?

"Perhaps you should learn to play 'the bell', it might suit your learning technique and inimitable musical style. Or you could just wear it around your neck." (Smokey)... As well as bell ringers, on our local news recently, we've had a group of players each responsible for striking one or two variously-sized bells as their notes come up on the score - seems like a fine social activity.

"I haven't dropped in for a while - I have better things to do, but haven't we already found out that WAV's "shoestring-travel through about forty countries" amounted to just one summer travelling - i.e. only a day or so in each country?" (JM) - I'd say in total the travels in my collection add up to a about a year on the hoof.

But as for the different matter of nomadically moving home, Eliza, and I think that's what you mean, why not just counties rather than countries, from now on?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:56 AM

"What the hell does that mean? "Homely?????" Isn't that American for ugly?"

Oi, Woody! My friend's mum (from Redcar if that makes any difference) called me "homely" when I waxed lyrical about the quality of her fruit loaf. If I'd known she was calling me an ugly bastard I'd never have had that second slice!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:29 AM

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

With "shoestring-travel through about forty countries, A-grade junior sport, a B.A. in humanities, four technical certificates in manufacturing, plus several years on the shopfloor" WHY haven't you got a job yet? You can't afford to be picky after a long period unemployed (I know from experience): you've just got to take any old job WAV. You've evidently far too much free time. I resent my hard earned taxes going to keep you. You're like the kid who won't leave home, indulging their adolescent fantasies while being shielded from being in the real world of employment. Time for tough love I think.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

You can't halt thousands of years of traditional nomadic life "in moderation". Either society suffers when people lose their traditions or it doesn't...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:28 AM

They say travel broadens the mind, on this basis WAV must have travelled about four inches.

eric

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:08 AM

The English concertina has a beautiful homely timbre, e.g.

What the hell does that mean? "Homely?????" Isn't that American for ugly?

Please, with your extensive knowledge and experience, explain what the difference is between the three systems. Or are you just spouting on once more about something you know nothing about? I think we all know the answer.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:01 AM

From: GUEST,JM
... haven't we already found out that WAV's "shoestring-travel through about forty countries" amounted to just one summer travelling - i.e. only a day or so in each country?

Makes a lot of sense. I don't why I'm surprised!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

I haven't dropped in for a while - I have better things to do, but haven't we already found out that WAV's "shoestring-travel through about forty countries" amounted to just one summer travelling - i.e. only a day or so in each country?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:11 AM

Just thought I'd drop in to see how people were getting on. At a rough count, out of the last 125 posts, seven are from WAV. He only needs to give th occasional gentle prod to keep you all on your toes.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:07 AM

And where's Leadfingers when you need him?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:03 AM

No need to log off, WAV, you've told us before. Odd that someone can do so much travel and education without learning much.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM

Oh, there's LOTS in this thread about music as it is actually played by the diverse population of this place called England today, much of it valuable. Certainly this wasn't the OP's intention, and the other strand of the thread has been informing him how muddled and wrong his ridiculous ideology is.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:47 AM

This thread has NOTHING to do with "Englands's national musical instrument" . . . could someone PLEASE end this farce?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:34 AM

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.