BS: The crack down

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:16 AM

Right on, Bert. Those were good men for that job in that time. I wouldn't want any of them as a neighbor.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:40 AM

... but he was a good fighting veh.... oops...

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:47 AM

MacArthur, Monty, Patton. All good choices for the job. One would never choose a sane person to go and kill people. That's probably why poor old Bradley never got much recognition.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 08:09 PM

In fact Little Hawk, its just popped ito my head that Montgomery got the job by default...the General due to take over was killed in an aircrash. Cant remember who it was, & cant be more than... hmmm.. 90% chance I'm remembering right anyway, & I'm not going to look it up right now, I'm off to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:40 PM

Yeah. No "I'll be back" with him. Good English all the way: "I shall return."

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:38 PM

General Douglas MacArthur. The number ONE prima donna.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:36 PM

Paul from Hull - You are absolutely correct. Monty was simply lucky enough to be there at the right time.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Alba
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM

200

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

As I seem to remember the REAL STORY behind many WWII battles - won and lost - often was deliberately obscured at the time, and only many years later when 'the official Secrets' were declassified, did anything like the real facts start to emerge.

In Africa, for instance, the fact that Enigma had been compromised meant that the real problem was NOT that it would have been so easy to use the decrypted information (and they did use it to help cripple Rommel's supply line - but the Germans began to become suspicious, hence ensued much intentional misdirecting subterfuge!), but the real risk that too much use of that info in the SHORT TERM would cause the Germans to change their security, thus losing the British the LONG TERM advantage of being able to catch changes in strategy and tactics, rather than win a few small battles. there thus had to be a trade off of accepting more causalities in the short term, in the hope of a better long term outcome of the war in general.

Also, it seems that Rommel lost his own message interception and decrypting team, captured by the british.

It was also useful propaganda to allow both ethe Enemy and the Allied public to believe stories like Monty's invincibility, the same as the Germans played up Rommel...

As for Patton and other starring generals (sorry for the pun!) in WWII, you Americans and others ignorant of History just might like to check out just what they were doing BETWEEN WWI & WWII, when the unemployed returned US WWI soldiers marched on the White House, and were camped out. So just WHO disobeyed Presidential orders and terrorised and murdered American citizens then... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:48 PM

Both Monty AND Patton were primadonnas. They both submitted plans to Ike which should have been based on the full support of all allied troops.

Ike chose Monty's plan and didn't have the guts to ensure that it was supported by Patton as well. He was the one really responsible for the defeat at Arnhem. If he had either chosen Patton's plan and forced Monty to support it, or if he had forced Patton to support Monty's plan (Which HE had chosen) then He would have stood a much better chance of victory.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:11 PM

Dead right Ginge.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:10 PM

LH, the 'groundwork' for El Alamein & the Desert Army's advance that followed it had all been done BEFORE Monty's appointment, Generals Ritchie & Cunningham. Lack of success against the Afrika Korps before that had caused Churchill to 'sack' a succession of Generals... Montgomery just happened to be the one in place when the 8th Army was strong enough to get the upper hand & keep it.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:38 PM

Absolutely. Monty was an arse, but a canny self-publicist. His reputation was built entirely on the work of others.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:35 PM

Boy, that sure sounds like George Patton all right! LOL!

George, I think you were on the right track, but I also think that the real powerbrokers behind the scenes didn't want that war over as soon as you did. No sir. They had a lot of lucrative military contracts to fill and a schedule to follow. Thus they nixed your excellent blitzkrieg plan and went for the slow battle of attrition, advance on a broad front nonsense...thus lengthening the war by a year, killing a lot more American soldiers, and making a hell of a lot of money for the arms industry.

That's my theory.

As for your analysis of Montgomery? Spot on. The man only once risked a battle he might not necessarily win, and it was Market-Garden. He lost it. I don't think he was a very good general, I just think he was a hell of a good organizer of an army's logistical supply chain, which is how he overwhelmed the Germans in North Africa. Given adequate supplies of his own, Rommel would have wiped Montgomery out without even straining himself.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST,General George S. Patton
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:28 PM

That's the problem Omar, you always tried to appease the god damned limeys. If we had some god damned leaders during that war there wouldn't have been a supply problem.

And by the way Bert it was the XXX limey Armoured Corp that failed to deliver back in Operation Market Garden. God damned limey Armoured Corp officers couldn't drive a god damned tank if they tried, let alone lead an attack.

Operation Market Garden, only that son of a bitch Montgomery would name a god damned battle by that name.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

Ah, George, George, George...you'll forgive me for not using your rank, but I never felt you deserved it....

Its all very well being 1st in Berlin (if you'd ever got quite that far) but not if Jerry had manage to consolidate again behind you, eh? Your version of Blitzkreig would just have gone the same way as the German one...

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST,Omar Bradley
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:17 PM

Now, George- you know that if you had done that, we'd have upset the Russians even more, and Lord knows what we'd have to have given up in the peace talks! And besides, our supply lines couldn't have supplied you with fuel fast enough. You'd have run out and been sitting ducks for little German boys with grenades.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST,General George S. Patton
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:09 PM

Blame Arnhem on that egotistical son of a bitch Montgomery. That plan was a god damned failure right from the beginning. God Damn it, if I wasn't serving under Bradley and if Ike would listened to me I would have taken my Third army over the Rhine and right into downtown Berlin by September 1944.

God Damn it! They were all a bunch of whiney whoosies.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

I just thought "Captain Ginger" would be a great cat's name, like a ginger-cat in a superhero disguise. Nothing personal.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:53 PM

....the Falaise Gap was also significant, in that a Panzer Division encountered at Arnhem wasa one of those that escaped from the Falaise pocket. Again, Pattons fault.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:51 PM

Me a cat? Maybe in the sense of hep cat, cool cat or jumpin' cat, but otherwise just the two legs and no tail. Got a few whiskers, though.
And if I'm standing to type, what's with the crack down?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

Much of that blame actually falls on Omar Bradley too Bert, as he was Pattons superior.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM

It was Patton who couldn't TAKE orders and left The British troops to die at Arnhem while he went off on his own (ego) trip towards the Rhine. And Ike didn't have the balls to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:40 AM

Can't hold this back any longer-- when we're sitting at our puders, don't we have the crack down automatically?

Sorry if somebuddy beat me to it.

Captain Ginger, are you a cat?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST,General George S. Paton
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM

Yeah I said all those things.

"We can always learn from each other"

I also said that.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:25 AM

I don't know if Patton ever really said all that about the Brits, but there is one thing he left out. It was the British that invented the tank, the machine that made you famous, you war monger!

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 02:16 PM

*giggle*

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 01:53 PM

That's them! I'd know them anywhere!

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM

What should we make of those who are Dr. Jekyll above the line and Mr. Hyde beneath it?
That they drink brightly coloured, smoking liquids from retorts, change shape hideously and hairily and go "mwah-hah-hah" quite a lot, I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 11:59 AM

They're bipolar?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:59 AM

How dare you, Amos! Some of us real guests posted to those threads! Did any full-time or part-time members post to them?

What should we make of those who are Dr. Jekyll above the line and Mr. Hyde beneath it?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:42 AM

Wow -- in my disinterest I had thought there was ONE lengthy thread with all that crap in it. Now I find out there were, at one time or another, THREE such threads.

I am impressed by the sheer volume of digestive throughput, but do not find the gain in quality justifies the perseverance required.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:43 AM

And hurrah. thrice hurrah for that.
Now listen Shambles, you've got nice a shiny new thread to play with, free from whinges, bellyaches and the like. Let's try to keep it that way, so don't go messing it up, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 03:26 AM

Upbraiding the pompous is still an opportunity to drop names, isn't it. So who's pompous?
Undoubtedly I am. And I'm sure there are a few more on the edge of the lamplight. Young Terry 'Teribus' has a surprising degree of precocious pomposity for a teenager.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 02:40 AM

It sure was a windy day today.....

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 01:04 AM

I do take umbrage with "make yourselves useful instead of strictly ornamental".

As our sometime guest ADG suggests, 'tis far better to make oneself useless as well as ornamental.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 01:02 AM

Upbraiding the pompous is still an opportunity to drop names, isn't it. So who's pompous?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:54 AM

Oh good grief! You all do realize, don't you, that without this forum you would have no place to so enjoy posting all this pompous, useless bullshit?

Why don't a few of you go look up the lyrics to a song request, eh? And make yourselves useful instead of strictly ornamental?

And BTW, Joe and Max, hooray! No more Clinton Hammond abrasiveness, obnoxiousness, and completely antisocial behavior. Shambles, take note, eh? (My opinion only, of course. Just like everyone else's posts on this site.)

Lin

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST,knotgrain
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

I don't know how polite slapping another's face with gloves was.

Now those who wish to can slap from a safe distance via the Internet.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:49 PM

How about banjos?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:48 PM

With axes.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:44 PM

An armed society is a polite society. Let's bring back dueling.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:16 PM

...it would be nice to have more technical tools to help us...

All it needs is sense enough to ignore any message that you don't like.

Failing that, it would need a program to ban the usual suspects, they post many times more often than the trolls who delight in arousing them.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:58 PM

I thought they kept pissing to see which direction the wind was blowing in...but it usually ends up drenching them as BillD noted.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM

"Why waste your time pissing against the wind?"

well, then you can complain.."My God...I'm getting drenched in piss!"

------------------------------------------------------------------
"... if management hasn't ever effectively enforced the current rules, ..."
The point has been made before that enforcement requires knowing what is happening...THAT requires either someone(s) with moderator status reading everything, or having problems reported...then sorting out whether the rules have, in fact been abused (often a grey area).

Membership would 'improve' control simply by having fewer abuses when folks know their membership might be in jeopardy...(and knowing that PMs are available to those they offend.)

Nothing can totally eliminate human weakness & temper tantrums and bad taste...but accountability can make some think twice.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

Indeed, on that point all reasonable people would agree.

But if management hasn't ever effectively enforced the current rules, why would you believe adding to or replacing the current set of rules will be any more effective?

If I recall correctly, you and I also agree the real issue at the heart of the matter is too many posters choosing not to exercise self-control over their responses to what others say. Membership doesn't fix that, and nor will a new set of rules.

The only cure for the problem that plagues this forum is effective moderation. We keep hearing that "it is coming" at the same time that the current moderation becomes more and more repressive, and less and less effective.

So maybe you don't just have a rule problem, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST,Joe Offer (at the Women's Center)
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

Yeah, it would be nice to have more technical tools to help us control some of the problems (and we're working on developing them), but we're still idealistic about this and would like to believe that people can control themselves. I know our culture dictates that people should do anything that somebody else can't stop them from doing - but that hardly leads to an ideal society.
I'd like ot think that our community can be better than that. It would be far better if people here could voluntarily enjoy and respect each other.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:31 PM

No, Janet. I believe if there are going to be new rules, there has to be an effective way to enforce them.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:24 PM

You are former military, right Jeri? So thinking the best cure comes from a supremely powerful authority, and is done "for our own good" is rather how you've been conditioned to think, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 04:53 PM

Seriously, if Joe could crack down like he wants, it would be a good thing. I think that some structural changes to Mudcat will be needed though before any attempt to limit nastiness can be effective. Looking forward to the day when kendall 'won't have to' react. (good one)