BS: Corbyn Landslide

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 01:48 PM

Saw Blair's best buddy Lord Faulkner being questioned on his role as Shadow Justice Minister, the guy has nothing in common with his leader, supports only one of Corbyn's core policies and can only have taken the job as a "spoiler"

Jeremy was wrong to construct an "inclusive" cabinet, they will do for him, and compromise will lose him support among the Party members.

Better to stick to his principles and let the Blairites go, de-select them if necessary, in doing so he will retain support of the Party and a voice for socialism at the top table.

It will take time to re-educate the young folks, but it will be a start and as crisis follows crisis, socialism will begin to sound quite palatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:40 AM

I don't doubt that Keith is correct and that many Labour supporters will vote for other Parties and self interest, it will be in the financial interests of many people to go with the status quo.

The important point is that the present membership of the Parliamentary Labour Party do not constitute a proper opposition, and if we are to even call ourselves a democracy, we must have a real political alternative.

Mr Corbyn has a proper mandate from Labour Party members and will be difficult to dislodge by coup, therefore a split Party seems inevitable.
This would also be the best route for real socialists, as a smaller more focused Labour Party could align with others on the left to gain a powerful voice in British politics.

To make this possible we must work hard to ensure that Proportional Representation is adopted.

Any arguments on whether Mr Corbyn can win General Elections and institute wholesale nationalisation etc are simply diversions from the real job that socialists face.....educating an electorate who have no understanding of reality concerning the environment and how we can live within it sustainably.

There is really no CHOICE available, but that fact will be obscured by those who value this system till the last moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 03:38 AM

I think that is the difference, Keith. The on-going argument is the balance between principle and electability. New Labour says electability is more important, because without it you can't put your principles into action. Both don't be misled: both are vital.

Even-newer Labour (not to be confused with Old Labour!) takes the opposite stance: The principles are more important and with the right ones you can persuade people to elect you. Both don't be misled: both are vital.

So Fred is right. A lot of the MPs seem to be working on the idea that if their stance is close enough to the tories then they will be elected every other time or so. But they fear that if their stance is too far away they will never be elected, either because the stance itself is unelectable or they are too strongly linked to the old style a new, more 'left' candidate will selected as a candidate instead of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 01:01 AM

No they're not. They're looking to save their own skins at the next election.

Yes exactly.
They fear electoral oblivion under Corbyn.
Saving their skins equates to saving the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 01:31 PM

No they're not. They're looking to save their own skins at the next election. That's the difference between Corbyn and most of the other MPs. He's far more interested in principles and in making this world a better place, than in hanging on to his job. I know Corbyn's approach is not how politics is supposed to works but just now and again principles and courage win through.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 12:31 PM

Critics already plotting to remove Corbyn? They've been doing this since the first hints he might be elected leader.

If the poll was also right about voters switching to Tory, then the plotters are acting to save the party from electoral oblivion.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 09:58 AM

well.. I've been rather fond of this British anthem for getting on 40 years since...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFRg5pLD9EI

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 07:50 AM

Acme's post with a link to the Canadian crowd singing the US anthem when the mike with that screeching lady mercifully cut out showed how much better the crowd did it. The organisers should learn from it. It's a great tune, and in fact not hard to sing, if you aren't chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 07:44 AM

Critics already plotting to remove Corbyn? They've been doing this since the first hints he might be elected leader. And if they don't succeed they'll be doing what they can to make sure the party loses the next election if he's still there, in keeping with Tony Blair's unusually honest admission that he would sooner see a Tory victory in such circumstances.

Definitely an uphill struggle - but the chances are a lot better than the odds against him becoming leader. Bookies were giving 200 to one against, and it's only 8 to one against him winning the election in 2020. Worth a flutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 06:08 AM

I don't think Jeremy "looks like a prime minister in waiting" either. But I still think he could be, and a damn good one at that. What after all, does any prime minister actually look like, based on recent history, since we assume that is what people imagine a prime minister in waiting is also supposed to look like:

* Dictatorial, or consensual?
* Better at soundbites or detail?
* Considered or opportunist?
* More interested in how a policy benefits the country, or how much it makes life awkward for the opposition?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 05:50 AM

It is the NA. The only one we have.

Independent today,
"A survey of 2,000 people found that Mr Corbyn's election as Labour leader has made one in five people who voted for his party at the May general election more likely to vote Conservative next time. Some 37 per cent of Labour voters say they are less likely to back the party at the next election.

The ORB findings will fuel the debate among Labour MPs after what many view as a poor performance by Mr Corbyn in his first week as leader. Critics are already plotting how to remove the veteran left-winger, with some saying they will move against him if Labour fails to win the London mayoral election next May."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-loses-a-fifth-of-labour-voters-with-critics-already-plotting-to-oust-leftwinger-10508584.html

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 04:24 AM

@Guest Dave.......written by a daughter of, I believe, Louis XIV of France in praise of the Bourbons! In GB it was initially a flop until some theatre audience picked up on it to honour King George(III? IV?)'s presence at the evening's performance.

Lynn

See the BBC docu on British Kings & Queens (part 4- Hannoverians, I think).

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 03:53 AM

it isn't a National Anthem though is it Keith, it says nothing about the nation and its people, unless they define themselves by servility. It is a hymn of praise to the Saxe-Coburgs.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 01:16 AM

Some professionals do an okay job (though I don't care for this version - it is very slow - possibly due to reverberation of the space?). Over here, less formally, the crowd steps in - even if it isn't their own anthem!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 02:32 PM

You might think the NA was not appropriate, but it is the NA and it is always sung at acts of Remembrance.

Corbyn did not and does not object to it.
He is quoted as saying that he always sings it and always will, but he was overcome with emotion that time.

Would he cynically lie about it just because it would alienate large numbers of the electorate?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 12:59 PM

I gather in the USA they don't expect their Presidents to sing their national anthem at public events. They always seem to bring in some professional who can't sing to do it.

If they really wanted to respect the people who were in the armed forces during the wat they should have had something they'd have sung. Like "why are we waiting". Or maybe "Bless 'em all".

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 08:58 AM

Cheers. *Blush*

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 07:16 AM

Mark Steel in The Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 06:23 AM

Hilarious but serious piece in the Independent today from Mark Steel: "Jeremy Corbyn won't stop until everyone in Britain is offended"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-wont-stop-until-everyone-in-britain-is-offended-10506322.

(though you may not find it funny if you're a bitter Tory or Rupert Murdoch)

Apologies for being unable, due to sheer thickness, to do links.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 05:58 AM

Dunno really. God is a highly political issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 04:42 AM

It was a totally inappropriate song to sing at that event. Ok, so most people will not go with my suggestion of No Mans Land, but surely Abide with me, or The Day Thou Gavest would be a fitting tribute, whilst remaining politically neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 03:42 AM

According to his mate, he always sings the NA, but on this occasion he was just overcome by emotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 09:49 PM

Precisely. For most of us on the Mudcat - apart maybe from some who aren't actually here because of the music, and never poke their nose above the Great Divide - singing is a pleasure not a penance (even if it might be a penance listening to us in some cases). I'd find it desperately hard not to sing just about anything in a crowd of people singing. That might even include God Save the Queen, though I can't ever remember being in a situation where people were actually singing it, and I've never sung it in my life that I remember.

But I can easily see that on a solemn occasion some people see it as a greater sign of respect to be silent. Silence can indeed be very much a mark of respect - and it's very often used that way in public occasions, such as Remembrance Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:23 PM

I'll not kneel before the Queen, nor sing God Save the Queen, but let no bugger try to stop me belting out if "How Great Thou Art" is on the funeral order of service. I simply can't help meself. Me wife and kids don't know whether to cringe or belly-laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:00 PM

I don't think too many people knew about stuff like kneeling in front of the Queen. It really does seem a bit daft. Like something out of Monty Python. Perhaps they have to do a funny walk on the same occasion.

Daft is OK Morris Dancing is a bit daft, and I love it. But treating stuff like as anything other than trivial isn't daft, it's stupid. The same goes for the tosh about singing the National Anthem - standing n silence while it is played shows every bit as much respect as singing, as is demonstrated at just about every funeral I've ever been to. Is someone who doesn't sing The Lord's My Shepherd really less respectful to the dead person than the ones that do? Is a footballer who fails to sing the national anthem before an international letting down the country?

And this kind of crap gets the headlines while people are going through hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 10:38 AM

the BBC are far more under threat from this tory Govt..

so we can expect more of an establishment arse licking tendency from some quarters of the BBC Hierarchy
as they try to distance themselves from previous accusations of left wing bias...???...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:53 AM

Steve. Probably some bigwig at the BBC who thinks the establishment will get slaughtered in their beds if Corbyn becomes Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

I agree with all that, Fred. In general I quite like the more abrasive style of BBC grilling, but I thought the attention that Laura was giving to that trivial matter, rather than the substance of his policies, was out of all proportion, not to say highly irritating in the most tabloid possible regard. I wonder who told her to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:55 AM

And we wouldn't have to endure Chris Evans on Top Gear either ...

Well there is the option of not watching it. Most people don't...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:29 AM

Steve Shaw. "I just watched Laura Kuenssberg". I quite agree but keep an eye on the hidden agenda. The establishment are crapping themselves at the thought that JC could win the 2020 election, or even that he might turn Labour into an effective opposition. Perish the thought, a leader who could run an effective campaign against anti-trade union legislation in the house of commons, and support the workers out on the streets.

Why is the establishment crapping itself? Because Jeremy Corbyn knows that they have lashings of untaxed loot stashed away in un-numbered accounts and Jeremy Corbyn might just claim some of it back.

The trouble is they haven't as yet got much to attack him on, so they dig up old and highly buryable news, and pretend that it's somehow relevant.

Jeremy Corbyn's a republican, so he didn't sing the National Anthem. Fucking big deal. Imagine the accusations of hypocrisy if he had sung it.

Jeremy Corbyn has to kiss the queen's hand in order to become a privy councilor. So what? Did he invent the royal protocol? Is he in any position to change it? I think not.

Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott once had a relationship. Wow. Now that is news. How far back does that go, and of what relevance is it today?

Jeremy Corbyn was once heard to say that he'd like to abolish the British army. So would I. It doesn't mean either of us would do it this side of the abolition of war.

Jeremy Corbyn has been in the job for less than a week. In that time he has had to put up with more personal abuse and sniggering and washing of linen that isn't even dirty, than any other newly appointed political leader I can recall. Not since the appointment of Michael Foot at any rate.

Enough already. If this is what happens when someone tries to undertake a modest reform of capitalism, small wonder that people sometimes find themselves forced to take to the barricades.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:10 AM

Guest makes a good point. It is perfectly possible that JC wins on economics or at least ends up in a no-score draw with one set of economists lined up against another and the entire rest of the population bemused into boredom. And if he treads carefully he could do the same on defence.

But flummery is a real problem. White or red poppies, singing the anthem, kneeling before the queen and other such stuff is really difficult to handle as he either refuses to take part and is portrayed as obnoxious and uncaring, or he does take part and is portrayed as hypocritical. He seems to have opted for the third path, which is worst of all, namely saying he "fully take part" in such events in the future, guaranteeing even more attention will be focused on them and adding "insincere promises" to the potential charge list.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:46 AM

I bet that tiresome old git Forsyth would prostrate himself full-length before the Queen!

Just a thought, if we got rid of the Beeb, would we lose Sir Terry Wogan as well?

Do you know, getting rid of the Beeb is looking more attractive by the minute!

And we wouldn't have to endure Chris Evans on Top Gear either ...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:44 AM

JC is now employed as Leader of the opposition and therefore a privy councillor part of that job description says you kneel before the monarch and take an oath, I would think a large amount of the population knew that (especially a MP) as it has gone on for years. To not be prepared for the question get petulant and loose your cool is not very bright. JC to become an effective leader needs to relise he is always going to be pushed on these issues due to his history. A small number of the electorate voted for him to be labour party leader, this is one crucial battleground where if he wishes to get labour to be elected he needs to become smarter. At our local he did not impress a lot of older labour supporters by his attitude he has everything to play for and everything to loose but a small minority of the electorate thinking the have elected the messiah, does not make him into days media savvy culture the messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:56 PM

Ok, I suppose so, and we wouldn't want to lose Bruce Forsyth either, come to think of it. Damn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:55 PM

Be fair Steve. There's also The Clangers on CBBC. I'm surprised they let that through though. Full of the kind of notions Jeremy Corbyn goes on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:02 PM

I just watched Laura Kuenssberg on Newsnight haranguing Jeremy, and I mean haranguing, about whether he'd genuflect or not before the Queen at the Privy Council ceremony. You couldn't bloody make it up. We have neatly a million on zero-hours contracts, at least two million unemployed, the bloody Torjes keeping the bankers rich whilst fleecing the poor and shitting on trade unions, and refugees that we caused getting tear-gassed in Hungary, yet that's what was "seen as important" by the BBC. Dearie me. Were it not for the Proms and University Challenge I'd be demanding my bloody licence fee back.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:36 PM

...as it is, like a lot of middle aged former young lefties,
The last 20 years of all the shite life has to thow at us
has rendered me rather, numb, defeated, and listless regarding politics....

All my old political theory books and pamphlets are by now probably well rotting and mildewed
in inacessibly boxes far in the back of the downstairs room nobody dares ever enter...

Felt far more alive in the clear cut left v right polarised politics of my student yesteryears..

Right now though.. there is a kind or reinvigorating 'hopeful' vibe in the air....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:25 PM

"You've got it totally wrong there PFR "

Ake - that's ok - I was hurrying trying to remember the kind of sloganeering bollocks we read in Polytechnic Marxism made simple seminars 30 odd years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:24 PM

I'm rather reminded of the sketch in Beyond the Fringe where a serviceman is told to go off and die for his country "We want you to make a futile gesture. It will raise the whole tone of the war."

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:23 PM

I would sing God Save the Queen quite happily except for three things: I don't believe in God; I don't believe in the Queen; and, even if I'm wrong and there really is a God, I wouldn't want him to save her from anything I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:12 PM

Singing God Save the Queen is surely blasphemous if the singer doesn't believe in God. So I imagine if he does sing it, he'll be attacked for that. Can't win, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 11:39 AM

"Corbyn Team"?....you must be joking, they're all a shower of backstabbers except O' Donnell.

Benn, Faulkner, Eagle, Burnham!etc Do you not think every one of them will be glad to see the back of him?
and waiting in the wings the hideous Cooper, Hunt....I feel too sick to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 11:30 AM

"b] quiver in pants filling fear that socialism may reignite as a positive force for progressive social fairness and change ?"

You've got it totally wrong there PFR what we need to be fighting for is political and economic change.....Social change "progressive" or otherwise.....what a fucking meaningless word! will be decided issue by issue, decided by what is in the long term interests of society, not what is "progressive" flavour of the month.
I see a fairly conservative society emerging from a socialist political system.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 10:59 AM

Can it be true that Corbyn's team have confirmed that he will in future sing "God Save the Queen"? That would be a dreadful u-turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:49 AM

Aside from everything, not joining the appropriate union is a bit like not bothering to ensure your house. Any of us can find something blows up, such as bullying in the workplace, where being in a union is really handy. You aren't on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

"Corbyn Trouser Press is an absolute disgrace and was voted in by 250k ignorant idiots."

Bonz - if we can presume you have no intention of ever voting labour

either...

a] you can relish the prospect that Corbyn will destroy the Labour party and render them permanently unelectable ?

or...

b] quiver in pants filling fear that socialism may reignite as a positive force for progressive social fairness and change ?

or...

c] take a leap into the unknowable uncertain future that will gradually become our shared reality and destiny ?

or...

d] sit down, have a quiet mug of tea, unwind, clear your mind of the burden of negativity,
visualise yourself in bed with Margaret Thatcher, grab a handfull of tissues,
and have another sad furtive.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:21 AM

When I was a child and young adult, we were taught that it was the accepted norm that singing the National Anthem or standing in silence were both equally respectful, and equally acceptable.

Without Trade Unions, workers wouldn't have paid holidays, pension schemes, and many, many other beneficial employment terms which we take for granted nowadays. It makes me want to vomit when I hear people slagging off the Unions, whilst cheerfully benefitting from the improvements in workers' rights fought for by the Unions.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:36 AM

I didn't say that people who aren't members of unions aren't dedent people, "Guest Ed". I said that being decent people they ought to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:43 AM

Well said Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:10 AM

I'm rushing to Kevin's defence here. Trade unions have been the only corrective to the more vicious workplace tendencies (of which there are many) of capitalism. If you work in any industry or other enterprise in which, down the decades, trade unions have fought for better pay and conditions and protected the interests of the workers in other ways, you need to remember that they have done it for you whether you paid your dues or not. The reason unions can't do these things very well any more is because there have been serial moves to shackle them more and more by right-wing governments. Workplace security has been deliberately made a thing of the past, with no guaranteed working hours, no security of tenure, no consideration given to work-life balance, the minimum wage becoming de rigeur with no means of negotiating it up and semi-permanent caps on pay rises. You all know people who have suffered under the rules of this brave new world, don't you. Unless you know only bankers and boardroom men, of course.

A couple of other things, concerning union ballots and leadership elections. I've been a member of the NUT for forty years, many of which I spent as a school representative, helping to train new reps and serving on local and London NUT committees. In that time I successfully represented people at tribunals who had been threatened with disciplinary action, campaigned against asbestos in schools, helped to fight workplace bullying of the worst kind in one particular school and fought for compensation for a teacher involved in an accident. Yes I also got involved in industrial action fighting against compulsory redeployment and education cuts, as well as threats to pay and pensions. Some you wins and some you loses. Not once did I ever go on strike and receive strike pay from the Union. We were called out in the mid 80s on one occasion when my wife was at home with our two little kids and striking was just about the hardest thing to do. Those people who denigrate strikers as a kneejerk at every turn - well just think what state working people would be in today without workers taking action. Anyone remember Bradley Hardacre?

Most people who join unions will never strike. Unions are about looking after members, not itching to go on strike. Looking after members is the backbone of union work and is in the background. It doesn't really get people fired emotionally, certainly not enough to care much who the leader is. So 15% turnout for the Unite election. So what? That's none of your business. Any union member who doesn't like it can simply walk away. Unite membership was on the rise last time I heard. As for strike ballots, legislation makes it as difficult and expensive as possible. Ballot papers have to be posted out then posted back. We all get so much bloody junk mail that the government hopes we'll think the brown envelope is just more of that. Online ballots would see turnout rocket, but that is not what the government wants, is it. Why would they let us remove one of the sticks they can beat us with?