BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:07 AM

I see you have cowardly abdicated the right to give us a name and an identity. In fact, you're a D-list type of guest.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,D
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 02:54 AM

"What did all the others take advantage of that the rest of Ireland didn't? couldn't? or wouldn't?"

Clearly, what all the rest took advantage of, that the Irish didn't, was "cowardly abdication." For this reason I can remain proud to be Irish, and humiliated to be Welsh or Scottish.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:58 AM

In relation to the top RUC men either not co-operating with Mrs O`Loan or in Ronnie Flanagans case suffering from the early forms of dementia, in 1969 an eldery Derry man Samuel Devenney was attacked in his own home by the RUC, Devenney never recovered from the severe baton attack and died shortly afterwards.
An English detective assigned to the case complained of meeting with " a wall of silence", he encountered what many other English policemen would discover when questioning the RUC, Stevens and Stalker were prime examples of this, nothing has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM

Sorry, that should be Lance Bombardier Stephen Restorick.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

The report of the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman (in which, at the request of the family of a murdered man, Lance Cpl Stephen Restorick, she investigated the collusion of the British authorities with loyalists in killings - her investigation limited to one unit (precinct?) of the Royal Ulster Constabulary) is now available here.

It's a PDF file, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

Don, you've got your history completely wrong. The troops were deployed in August 1969 by the Home Secretary of the day (Jim Callaghan) because of fears for catholic communities in which loyalist gangs were running amok, sometimes led by B Special reservists, or even serving police. Particularly in the Bogside part of Derry and in West Belfast. Direct rule from Westminster replaced Stormont in March 1972. Various memoirs, brfoadcast interviews with Callaghan and Cabinet papers released under the 30-year rule all point to the same motivation for sending the troops in.

The whole business was something of an embarrassment for the IRA, which had been largely moribund and certainly had been in no position to respond quickly when those catholic comomunities came under the loyalist cosh. Obviously they wanted the brits out, and their cause was given huge impetus by various atrocities, but in particular the horror of Bloody Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

True Keith, but when you examine the context, you realise that this is not by any means the start of the affair. Stormont had been up and down several times before that date and demands for a British presence also precede it.

However, this is still off topic, and shows no sign of going back to the point of the thread.

Outa here!

Later.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:05 PM

Don, this is a fairly balanced Irish history site.
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/sligo/93/past/history/19691972.html
Do you agree with this?
The UK government realised in August that Northern Ireland was about to collapse into anarchy because the RUC was simply not large enough to maintain order. So, on 15 August, the UK Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, ordered the British Army into Belfast and Derry to support the RUC. (The Army is still in Northern Ireland today.) Four days later he also ordered the Stormont government to establish better community relations, introduce 'one man one vote', disband the B-specials, and disarm and restructure the RUC. With all their demands now unexpectedly met, the official Civil Rights campaign shut down.

However, this was not the end of the story. The violence that had erupted, directed mainly towards the Catholic community, had prompted many people there to rekindle their old desire for a united Ireland. In 1969 a fierce debate began within the ranks of the IRA. Some members supported the non-violent strategy

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM

Pdq, I was not trashing USA, just showing that there are parallels in our histories.
Texas and California were part of Mexico. Mexico did not recognise the self proclaimed independence by the planted Americans. California was only independent a week befote US army marched in.

Tir, I know you had some successful candidates. I was referring to the total vote, even giving percentages for 2001 election.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:05 PM

Guest, your posts are being deleted because you are anon., not because you are Irish.
It is the same with history.
The same shit happens to everyone, not just you.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
["Date: 21 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM

Excellent post Don.
I would only quible on two points.

1 "British troops became involved in the latest troubles was not by invasion, but at the insistence of the predominantly protestant loyalist majority"

I would have said that they came to protect the Catholic people from that majority protestant population, especially from the B Specials.
The reason that they had to stay after that was sorted out, was to counter the insurgency of the PIRA."]


No Keith, it had little to do with protecting catholics, in the first instance, that came somewhat later. The first move was suspension of the Stormont parliament, and a demand by loyalists that its operations be taken over by the British government. As soon as British soldiers arrived, they became targets for both sides. All the rest followed from that.

I am disappointed to see that a fairly productive discussion has again descended into another Of these boring wrangles about who did what, with which, and to whom. This is precisely what I meant when I referred to picking at old wounds.

This thread was supposed to be about the perception of a similarity between USA in Iraq, and Britain in Northern Ireland.

On that subject, my American friends, not a valid excuse for two reasons

1. Apples and Oranges! Totally different conditions.

2. If a five year old in trouble said to you "Well Charlie did it too", you would not accept that as a reasonable justification.

I suspect that financial support for muslim groups in the US from British Muslims would elicit some pretty angry demands from the state department that we stop them forthwith, but I don't think the state department ever attempted to prevent the PIRA being armed by US donation.

Perhaps if we all agreed to stop trying to have our cake and eat it??

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:50 PM

'A United Ireland is just around the corner. You know it and I know it.'

actually now you mention it - I'm not too sure.

AND there was plenty of shit flying round above the radar, below it and all points in between. there are people on both sides who regard any kind of reconciliation as some sort of sell out. Really shit attitudes.

Why don't you modify your ambitions to just getting rid of the English army of Irish soil. A complete split between England and Northern Ireland. negotiate that corner first.

Then try and make yourselves more cuddly to each other. who knows you may get to envisage a United ireland, not just based on the idea that 'my side wins!'

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

Teribus... A United Ireland is just around the corner. You know it and I know it.
Names are unimportant, except to say that every Volunteer who took an Oath of Allegiance knows that they might be killed in pursuit of that. Anyone who has, has given his/her life for the greater good of that United Ireland.

My question to you, basically was "Was it worth every British life"

Keith, Keith, Keith...., what are we to do about you?
(... Rhetorical...!!!!)

You would have us believe that prior to 2001, SF had never topped the SDLP vote.
Do you remember that Danny Morrison got elected to the British Parliament

IN 1982

, on the mandate that he would not even take his seat!
In a straight run-off between Nationalist and Unionist the previous year, Bobby Sands was elected MP.

Only scum, Ginger, collude to keep a bad situation worse.
At certain times from '69 to the final IRA ceasefire there had been many moves made under our radar to come to some agreement.
You seem to think the Struggle took place in a vacuum.
Ted Heath met the IRA, for instance. We had Sunningdale, etc.

What normally knocked these talks off the rails was the often-referred to DTB - Dirty Tricks Brigade.
The latest revelations confirm its existence.

Now, if these 'units' could stir the old pot at the drop of a hat, what real chance was there of anything positive or progressive happening, when there was one side constantly trying to throw a spanner in the works, whenever some light seemed to appear at the end of the tunnel.

Only scum do that

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: pdq
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

Well, you did give us the Beatles. Come to think of it, we are using your language and have never paid one red cent for pinching it. OK, let's call it even.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:15 PM

Basically we're all insecure and crave affection. Every night we suffer agonies of conscience about the wicked things we've done to the Irish and that Ard man - he says the beastliest things and that stops us getting off to sleep. The lack of sleep makes us aggressive and unfair to the Americans, who really we should be grateful to - for winning the the second World war for us.

The fact is we're just contemptible. Thankyou for pointing out our faults so nicely......

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: pdq
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM

Why do people in the UK have to trash the US in order to make points about Northern Ireland?

Both California and Texas were independant countries before they asked to join the United States. The people of both entities wanted to be part of the US and hated the oppressive and violent leadership of Mexico. That included Spanish-speakers as well as Anglos, but most especially the American Indians who were terrorized by both Spanish and Mexicans.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

Why do Republicans feel the need to keep starting these threads then?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:47 AM

Latest news, collusion is still rife,and no twisting of the truth by the DUP and Unionists will change that, and no David Ervine clones on a little insignificant internet Site will make an iota of difference.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

How many journalists, ex or current, here on the Mudcat?

How many of your Editors/sub-editors or colleagues know all your contacts?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:52 AM

SDLP leader Mark Durkan stated yesterday that,"Ronnie Flanagan`s defence that he did not know what was going on, fools nobody.
As the police Ombudsman said this could not have happened without knowledge and support at the highest levels of the RUC, that means Ronnie Flanagan".
Mr Durkan also said" Mr Blair had serious questions to answer because collusion happened on his watch and not just on Margaret Thatchers.

Poor Durkan trying to get the truth from a proven liar will prove impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:57 AM

The present NI police chief, Hugh Orde, has accepted the report. That itself is terrific progress. Imagine any/i>, of his predecessors accepting such a damning indictment. Without exception they would have taken the Ken Maginnis line that the RUC was a non-sectarian force staffed with exclusively honourable men and women.

Orde's open contempt for senior officers in the RUC who refused to co-operate with the inqiry is evidence of s sea-change in attitudes. (He has refused to name them, but it was for the ombudsman to do tghat. He has pointed out that it is easy enough to find out who they were.)

There will be further evidence of a sea change when Sinn Fein resolves in the immediate future to give its support to the police force that succeeded the RUC.

All this gives me, for one, some cause to be optimistic about the future.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:03 AM

Mark Haddock serial killer referred to as "informant 1" was doing his business during the first five years of this Labour government, Mrs O`Loan tells us that Haddock was being paid his £80,000 between 1990 and 2001, who knew/ who was in charge?. A policeman or a senior figure in Stormont?.

Does anyone imagine that the RUC protected murder gang operating out of Mount Vernon was anything other than one small part of the total British administration`s conspiracy operation across the north.

Are we to believe that successive secretaries did not know of their agents unsavoury actions, and it is impossible to believe that such behaviour wasn`t sanctioned at cabinet level.
Sir John Stevens in his report concluded that the intelligence services, far from advancing the cause of peace, actually prolonged the troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:02 AM

Yes Guest, thanks for the correction.
Actually they were merged with RIR, not disbanded.
RIR and all army units were withdrawn frm the streets when PIRA ceased its "operations"
That could and should have happened decades ago.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:59 AM

Tir, here is that quote again.

Sinn Féin organiser Danny Morrison at the party's Ard Fheis (Annual Conference) in 1981, said, "Who here really believes we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot paper in this hand and an Armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?" This statement confirmed the relationship between the IRA and Sinn Féin.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:38 AM

Peter, It was good of you to concede that UDR were a vast improvement on the B Specials.
I accept that they were far from perfect, but it showed that real progress was made as early as 1969.
UDR were disbanded soon after PIRA were disbanded.
But for PIRA they might have been disbanded in early 70s.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:14 AM

Tir, you have twice said I should have mentioned Danny Morrison.
I qouted him, in this thread, on 22nd Jan at 0450 AM.
What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:59 AM

scum you represent
ah, the words of reconciliation and the mature thoughts of a peacemaker who wishes to move on!
As I've said TC, you are part of the problem. You don't speak for my family, and I find your attitude sickening. The sooner your raving fades away the better for the whole of Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:29 AM

Now let's see TC, 3,500+ killed, over 32,000+ injured.

The PIRA and the INLA claimed that they had a mandate to "protect" the "nationalist/republican" minority in Northern Ireland. The figures given above and the indiscriminate way that the PIRA and INLA went about "protecting" people could have been much, much worst. It was not for the want of trying on the part of the PIRA, was it TC?

So you have nothing but contempt for those who stood in order to save innocent civilian lives, how honest of you to put the paramilitaries contempt for the general population so well - they were after all the people you were supposed to be "protecting". Question for you TC, give me the name of one single paramilitary who sacrificed his/her life to save the life of a single civilian in Northern Ireland?

As to the presence of British troops within the recognised boundaries of the United Kingdom, I think that you will find them there until such time as the people of Northern Ireland vote in a referendum to join the Republic. According to most polls that day is still a long way off. So tell me again why all those people had to die, why were all those people injured? Tell us how and why the PIRA came to exist, tell us what the IRA's take on the situation in 1971/1972 was.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:13 AM

Condie Rice recently said that every American life lost in Iraq was worth it, Teribus

Would you say the same about your tally in the North?

"(... you slipped up badly there totally overlooking Danny Morrison, Keith...)
Is it any wonder you get the reactions you get.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:08 AM

We feel utter contempt for what you lot did Teribus.

We are relieved however to know that the scum you represent will never again sully our lands.
We are finally getting rid of you, Allah be praised.

All you have is contempt and sour grapes.

Na na na na na!

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:22 AM

Patsy, that thread was not deleted or closed.
People just stopped posting to it a couple of weeks ago.
Here it is if you want it.
Collusion Thread

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM

See the thread of British Collusion in Ireland disappeared from here. How strange ! Seems there are more Pro - British moderators here than many thought. Keep up the good work chaps, tally ho and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:52 PM

"The three words were spawned by your ill-contained hatred"

Oh no Peter K (Fionn), I feel no hatred, ill-contained or otherwise, for any of the paramilitary groups, just complete and utter contemp for them, and total revulsion for what they did.

And while tables are being produced as being relevant, here's the one that puts things into perspective:

British Security 362
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2056
TOTAL 3523

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:24 PM

Keith, that doesn't address Den's point that many of the thugs from the B Specials were subsequently re-employed in the UDR. I would add however that the UDR, for all its faults, was not remotely comparable with the B Specials.

Teribus, I was quibbling about one very specific phrase, and you've not dealt with it. Within that phrase you used three words ("even bother wearing") where one ("wear") would have done the job you now say you were trying to do. The three words were spawned by your ill-contained hatred, and must have been intended to suggest that the maskless ones were behaving with contempt or disdain in not wearing masks. But in the event you merely sounded incoherent, which is what happens when you let hatred drive your behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:01 PM

1969, B Specials disbanded.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/10/newsid_3146000/3146929.stm

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Den
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM

Can we please dispel with the myth that the disbandment of the 'B' Specials was some kind of significant event for the benefit of nationalists. The 'B' Specials simply became the Ulster Defense Regiment, an even bigger parcel of bigoted rogues than their predecessors. Better equipped, better trained, the loyalists own version of Homeland Security.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:46 AM

No Guest, once NICRA had exposed the situation to the people of mainland Britain, they were pushing against an open door.
There was no support for the Stormont regime outside NI.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:33 AM

Peter, I am suggesting that US Civil Rights Movement got a fair result by massive, peaceful, dignified protest.
20 years later their struggle was a fading memory, while the killing in NI carried on unrelenting.
If an African American terror group had killed in the same proportion, millions of US people would have died, and what else would they have achieved but revulsion and hatred.

Yes, the situation in late 60s was unacceptable to the vast majority in these islands, and it was right that the Civil Rights movement brought it in to the open.
By early 70s, B Specials had been disarmed and disbanded, Stormont had been thrown out and the unfair voting system swept away.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:08 AM

Peter K Your question:

"...four of her abductors didn't even bother wearing masks..." Your point being, er, WHAT, Teribus?"

The original passage the quote in the question came from:

"This recently widowed 5ft tall mother of 10 was abducted from her house on the 12th December, 1972, by 12 PIRA stalwarts. They dragged her from her bath (she had been viciously beaten the night before courtesy of the bold PIRA - Gerry Adams commanding) screaming in front of her terrified children, four of her abductors didn't even bother wearing masks. She was then taken across the border beaten, tortured, mutilated and shot."

My answer to your question:

"The point being Fionn - Is that Jean's eldest daughter has seen at least four of her mothers abductors and can possibly identify them."

In fact Peter, should you ever ask Helen, and Seamus, her husband, she has seen one of the people who abducted her mother while shopping in Belfast. Like the ring, the presence of these four people who can be identified, may yet come back to roost. Remember that this kidnapping and murder are still open investigations, people can still be arrested, tried and convicted - that includes those who authorised and sanctioned the "operation". The Police Ombudsman is being hailed as the font of all truth and wisdom with regard to Security Forces/RUC collusion, but for some reason when she investigates extensively as to whether or not Jean McConville was an informer and takes the unprecedented step of categorically stating that she was not, SF mouthpieces denounce such inquiries as bogus.

You asked why I mentioned that aspect of Jean's abduction and I believe that I have explained it. If you do not like the answer Fionn all well and good, that is no skin off my nose, however can you tell me why you think that I am lying in my answer, and share with us what point you thought I was trying to make?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:28 PM

Really, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

I think who has made which choices is obvious. Really, the fascinating bit would be why they arrived at such choices.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:19 PM

"...then over three thousand men women and children would be alive today"

Pure speculation, Teribus. After Burntollet, nothing was certain

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Den
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:16 PM

Lets not forget the FRU. Maybe Teribus can tell us why they only killed catholics.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:13 PM

The point being Fionn - Is that Jean's eldest daughter has seen at last four of her mothers abductors and can possibly identify them.

Oh, Teribus, I do believe you're lying! That is NOT the point you were making with the phrase I questioned, and I fear you would never persuade anyone on this planet that it was.

Keith, what if oppression in the southern states did not spawn an IRA equivalent? Maybe it should have done. Or are you suggesting that the oppressed in that example got a fair result through their passivity? Northern Ireland by the late 60s was crying out for direct action, with Westminster turning a blind eye to criminal abuse of power by the ruling unionists. But for NICRA and the IRA - later PIRA - the abuses would have continued unchecked.

Oppression seldom produces a chief terrorist/freedom-fighter strong enough to fine-tune the scale of response until it is precisely proportionate to the prevailing circumstances. Neither is there any one correct, guaranteed-effective, way to respond to oppression.

What do you and Teribus say about the fact that Ronnie Flanagan, the chief constable who presided over the collusion now acknowledged at British cabinet level, has so far not been suspended from his present job as HM Chief Inspector of Police? Will you still cling to the worn-out line that he's no worse than "the lying, killing, thieving, sub-human Provos"? By the way, Ard, Ronnie did present himself to the ombudsman's inquiry. He just wasn't in a particularly helpful frame of mind.

Teribus, abandoning facts has worked wonders for your prose style, as in that wee bit I just quoted. But how about this: "...as the world knows, courage lives in the hearts of Irishwomen." Surely the high-watermark of pretentious humbug?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:47 PM

"After all, I would imagine that, those involved were UVF members first and informers second."

Ahem... You're forgetting the part played by the UDR. and the Police Reserve.

Perhaps you might like to spill a few more beans, now that the can is open....?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:54 PM

TC lot less damning than the following with regard to collusion:

"Members of the Special Branch in the area committed murders and other serious crimes while working as informers for the UVF."

After all, I would imagine that, those involved were UVF members first and informers second.

By the bye TC, please explain to all regarding the non-participation in the "troubles" by the IRA, tell us why the Provisional IRA was formed, because had they not been formed, had they followed the lead given by the IRA, then over three thousand men women and children would be alive today.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:31 PM

Mark Haddock UVF serial killer in British employ received £80,000 in payments, Sir Ronnie Flanagan now the official overseer to police forces in Britain refused along with other police heads to meet the Ombudsman, he was advised by RaYmond McCord sr father of Raymond McCord jr, murdered by Haddock, to resign and also advised the government to strip Sir Ronnie of his knighthood.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

You're forgetting Danny Morrison, Keith: 1982-86

Thanks, Teribus, for justifying the Armed Struggle

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:41 PM

Ard, 2001 was the first time SF beat SDLp for the Nationalist vote (21.7%-21%)

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:41 PM

"UVF members in the area committed murders and other serious crimes while working as informers for Special Branch."

No shit, Sherlock, that is about as surprising as picking up a paper and reading the headline "Dog Bites Man".

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

"Tir, I know well that most Nationalists did not take up the gun, and would not vote Sinn fein while the killing went on"

You know nothing of a sort, Keith.
The phrase: "May you never want for a string for your fiddle, while there's guts in an Englishman", was not a warcry of any movement for political change, remember.

The British never understood fully the depth of opposition.

You need to work on your Empathy, Keith, not look for obtuse common denominators by which you seek to absolve your own disgraceful history abroad over the Centuries.