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BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Nemesis Date: 02 Jan 05 - 06:22 AM SRS ... it looks an appalling picture. There were also reports and interviews with an inarticulate, British it has to be said, tourist who'd chosen to contiue their holiday ... along the, absurd I thought, lines echoing post-9/11: "not drinking beer, not sunbathing, not holidaying, and going home would be giving in to (terrorism)global catastrophe .... letting circumstances win" ... Good (not) to know that nothing will bow the mind, will, or conscience of some. Sadly, the immediate "uncaring" message of that picture is one shared by some, who bluntly put, "don't give a shit". Let's be thankful, as witnessed by the unilateral, World-wide response from humans of all races, religions and creeds, that they are a minority - probably sitting under a metaphorical bridge with the rest of the race of trolls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:55 AM I've skipped through this, particularly the squabbling and finger pointing, and note that I will have to go read some news stories, since I didn't read about Kohl's experiences. This came from Leadfingers on Dec. 28:
We had an extremely interesting lesson on the news today about what happens when cultures aren't so interfered with or colonized that their experience of their land is allowed to be handed down, generation after generation. One small island about 50 (? I think) miles north of Bande Aceh had relatively little death, though there was material destruction. Why? Because almost 200 years ago there was an earthquake, and afterward a tidal wave killed a lot of people. The elders got smart and have handed down a cultural practice, through all of those years, that when there is an earthquake, all inhabitants should immediately head for the high ground. They did that, and very few died. Now, for the main reason I scanned this thread, to highlight some photos. ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) has a page of photos here. I call your attention to this particuarly obscene shot. I can't get the photo itself to load here, but find this thumbnail on the other link, and follow it to the Euro couple on the beach. The alt text says "Foreign tourists sunbath on a Thai beach as local workers clear the debris from the tsunami." The man is looking up at the workers as they begin to clear the debris of the tsunami. Are there bodies in this wreckage, do you think? Is he thinking "fuck what she says, I'm going to help" or is he merely wondering if they have any cold Diet Coke around somewhere? And what in hell is wrong with this woman? If you found yourself in a place like this and you were able bodied in the face of such disaster, could you blow it off and go lie on the beach? There is no label here, except their white skin, to say that they are foreigners. Are they Europeans or Americans (and does it make a difference if both are now considered colonizers)? A Belgian friend who was here for dinner tonight said he thought they were Europeans, that they are scrambling to the area as fast as they can go because vacations are so cheap. And he said he thinks these folks left their consciences at home. Don't they know you should never leave home without it? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Bashed Date: 01 Jan 05 - 10:35 PM Why not quit bashing the US and do something yourselves. Does it matter what the US gives. It only matters what you give. The US will not receive any credit no matter how much it gives. So if you are for the US don't concern yourself because they will not receive any credit for what they give or do, if you are against the US take joy for they will not receive any credit for what they give or do. None of this benefits the people who are suffering. Do what you can and do not be concerned about what other people are doing. Men and women will be working to help the people suffering from this disaster without regard to receiveing credit. Companies will be giving, charities will be giving, and governments will be giving. The company I work for is matching employee contribution, so that is how I am helping. Pray, contribute, and if you are in the affected areas do what you can. Making judgements about other people efforts is not helping and only shows were your real concerns lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:10 PM "It looks as though you and I won't agree either BillD, so I suggest we drop it." ...well, perhaps so. 'agreeing' seems to mean both of us adopting YOUR position and basic attitude, I guess. I always thought that thoughtful progress was made in debates where 'agreement' was NOT immediate. I see your general point about Bush's notion of 'useful' money being that which enhances his own position and election..........Do you see my point about NOT being sure exactly what sequence was involved in THIS case? I am not a fan of Bush, but I'd like to believe that even this Republican administration would respond to tragedy and suffering...even if they didn't say it as forcefully as I might like. but, as you say, we'd better drop it, as I am unlikely to just nod wisely at your broad accusations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:08 PM Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. (28 Dec 04 - 07:50) I'm coming back to you, 28 Dec 04 - 07:50, now that more information is available. You remind me very much of GWBush, not in political leanings but in character. You too like to fire your mouth off on the basis of unreliable information and pass judgement without being even remotely well informed. Kohl is a man I never have voted for and I always hated his politics. But here I see nothing wrong in what he has done and am ready to defend his actions. He was in the third floor of a hotel in Sri Lanka of which only the first two floors got flooded and which withstood the impact of the water. He has seen the disaster first hand. For two days, there was no access to that region due to a street having been blocked. On the third day, the surviving tourists were flown out. Some wanted to stay, Kohl among them, but have been asked by the authorities to agree being flown out. The reason for that is that they need all the remaining infrastructure for their own citizens and that accomodating tourists in areas hit by the flood takes much needed ressources away. So he agreed being flown out with the other tourists but is among the very small minority of German tourists surviving the flood still staying in other parts of Sri Lanka. We can see him in TV supporting financial and other aid and asking Germans to donate money. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:03 PM I'm inclined to agree with you on this, guest, but Canada seems to be a part of the U.S. led coalition although some of the affected countries would rather deal with Canada, directly. At any rate, the U.S. coalition and the U.N. seem to be working together on this response. Seems ineffecient, at best. Lets hope that both teams can co-ordinate their activities. http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/31/debt-tsunami041230.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM To undermine the UN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM I don't think it makes much sense to have a U.S. coalition as well as a U.N. response. The problem is not dollars and cents. The problem is communication and distribution. It would make more sense to have the U.N. overseeing the operation so that all activities could be co-ordinated. What is the purpose of a separate U.S. coalition? |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM I recognize that the tourists are being evacuated as quickly as possible, to get them out of the way, and to prevent them and their loved ones from clogging communication lines especially. I have no problem with that. But I still have a problem with Kohl's behavior, even now. But there is no point arguing that with you Wolfgang, because we aren't going to agree. I have been discussing facts, BillD. When I say "the US" and "the Americans" I have been referring to the Bush government. I too make distinctions between individuals and governments. Now, I am very cynical about the Bush pledges for aid, because of the Bush government's very well known track record of pledging money and never delivering it (for instance, in the rebuilding money for Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Bam earthquake in Iran for starters). That is Bush's ideological "compassionate conservatism". Promise everything in the moment when people are most passionately engaged, wait for the hoopla and media circus to fade, and then don't deliver what you promised. That way, you look good without paying any price. The Bush strategy to a T, as we saw in the recent election with his very different response to the Floriday hurricanes--he was there in a heartbeat, passing out bottled water and promising billions. It paid off for him too. He won the hotly contested state of Florida. Compare that to his reaction to the Asian tsunami, where the victims don't vote in American elections. I sincerely doubt that the people of south Asia will see much of that money promised by the US government in any form other than military intervention in their countries under the flag of the "coalition" Bush has built to undermine the UN. It looks as though you and I won't agree either BillD, so I suggest we drop it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:49 PM Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. (28 Dec 04 - 07:50) I'm coming back to you, 28 Dec 04 - 07:50, now that more information is available. You remind me very much of GWBush, not in political leanings but in character. You too like to fire your mouth off on the basis of unreliable information and pass judgement without being even remotely well informed. Kohl is a man I never have voted for and I always hated his politics. But here I see nothing wrong in what he has done and am ready to defend his actions. He was in the third floor of a hotel in Sri Lanka of which only the first two floors got flooded and which withstood the impact of the water. He has seen the disaster first hand. For two days, there was no access to that region due to a street having been blocked. On the third day, the surviving tourists were flown out. Some wanted to stay, Kohl among them, but have been asked by the authorities to agree being flown out. The reason for that is that they need all the remaining infrastructure for their own citizens and that accomodating tourists in areas hit by the flood takes much needed ressources away. So he agreed being flown out with the other tourists but is among the very small minority of German tourists surviving the flood still staying in other parts of Sri Lanka. We can see him in TV supporting financial and other aid and asking Germans to donate money. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM " it is truly impossible not to be cynical about the US response ..." ...and do you mean the US response or G. Bush's response? They are NOT exactly the same thing. as you see, some are NOT cynical. You will have to deal with your own IMOs. All I said was we need to wait & see. In a disaster of this type, the need will be ongoing, and it looks like most of the world is gearing up to do a fair share. You may speculate all you wish about the 'immediate' order and magnitude of the US pledges.....As much as I dislike Bush and the current administration, I personally have no knowlege of the discussions and decision making process. It simply makes no difference whether the US said "$35 million" or $10 Billion in that first couple of days, as it will take time and planning to spend ANY allocated amount. It's not like we needed to drop crates of money over Sri Lanka within 48 hours! Once it was clear how extensive the damage was, the dollar amount increased, and YOU do not know whether the US was shamed into a larger committment, or just took the time to be sure what to do....and unless you KNOW the answer, cynical speculating just because the US is a popular target is just tedious! You could have said "I think $35 million will not be enough-I sure hope they decide to up that." Discuss facts rather than resorting to immediate finger pointing! If months went by and the US had said, "we think we have done enough and we ain't gonna give more!", then maybe a bit of righteous indignation would be relevant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:29 AM BillD, I know this sounds cynical and you don't want to go there, but it is truly impossible not to be cynical about the US response to this disaster, IMO. The US government quickly immediately approved $13.6 BILLION to disaster relief in Florida in the wake of the hurricanes this year, just before the US election. Compare that to the initial $10 million offered for this multi-national disaster. You can't just stick your head in the sand and pretend there is no political aspect to disaster relief. Politicians control the pursestrings. We need to be clear about that, and act accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Frank Date: 31 Dec 04 - 06:02 PM The earthquake center in Hawaii informed the American leased atoll in Diego Garcia used for military manuevers in Iraq and Afghanistan of the earthquake and possible tsunamis. It was ignored and Indonesia, Ceylon, India, Sumatra all suffered the consequences. Undergound testing of atomic materials may have had something to do with the earthquake and ignoring the melting of the polar ice caps that raise the water table may mean more tsunamis for the future. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: ard mhacha Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:43 PM The response from Britain and Ireland is magnificent, how can anyone find fault with the heartfelt generosity of those who give to such a worthy cause. The TV news from the BBC and RTE shows people from all walks of life and all age groups donating to all of the various charities, "humbling" was the response from one Red Cross official. The same support I am sure is also taking place on the European and American continents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: KT Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:16 PM I was just writing to affirm what BillD said. As I'd said in my earlier post "Our response to this tragedy need not be limited to initial reactions." Then I saw Ebbie's post! Exactly!! We have many opportunities to respond in many different ways. May it bring out the best in all of us. Martin, my intent was not to lecture you. My apologies if it appeared that way. Please see my PM to you. KT |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Ebbie Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:29 PM The US has now announced that it is committing $350 million to Asia. Wouldn't it be nice if one good thing came out of this tragedy? We can't afford an unwinnable, unnecessary, useless war AND a humanitarian effort to save and nurture whole peoples. Let's let the war go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: MBSLynne Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:03 PM Brucie...thank you for making me feel better about the little I can do. And with all your other posts on here...as with almost all your posts..I agree entirely..you are absolutely right. What a lovely man you are. Btw..I'm rather proud to say that my 14 year old son (RAT-W), really upset by what he had just seen on the news, said he was going to donate all the money he'd just got for his birthday and Christmas. He has a Saturday job, and he is now talking of working a couple of Saturdays and sending the money to one of the appeals for this dreadful disaster. Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:59 PM No, Amos - Tenerife is also in the Canary Isles, but a different island from La Palma - here are two more sites about the disaster that is waiting for us some time in the future (tonight or in a hundred years, but it's coming): Why the only certainly about the La Palma tsunami is that it WILL happen, and Evaluation of the threat of mega tsunami generation from postulated massive slope failures of island stratovolcanoes The point is not that we should turn our attention from the present disaster, and doing what we can to help, but that we should be even more motivated to help out by the awareness that some time it is going to be us needing the help. .................... £50 million pounds for the UK works out at about £1 per head, not exactly a sum of money that would put much strain on most of us. The same would be true if the US were to up its contribution to the same level, and stumped up £300 million. I would hope, and anticipate, that ordinary Americans dipping their hands in their pocket will come up with more money than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM those reports of 'pledges' don't tell the whole story for ANY nation. Some of the numbers represent only preliminary amounts to get things started. No one knows yet exactly how much will be needed, and in what form. The US is sending things like an aircraft carrier with helicopters which will not be reflected in that $ amount. No one said the early 'pledges' would be the final amount. Help will be required in that region for years, and I suspect that the US will I am not defending OR attacking anyone's donations...yet. 6 days is not soon enough to make these decisions about relative generosity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: kendall Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM I just saw a report on the BBC that the UK has pledged 50 million pounds (roughly 100 million dollars) and the USA has pledged 18 million. The math doesn't lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Amos Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM McGrath: That island is Tenerife, I believe, in the Canaries. The mountain in question is already underwater, but liable to break off and cause huge underwater waves producing Atlantic tsunamis. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Once Famous Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:57 AM Guest,KT. No you are wrong. My comments were in support of Tarheel. I've read enough of his posts to know where he is coming from and I feel similar to him on various matters. I do not need your lecturing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,heric Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:52 AM Satellite images |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM Good to see that Google has got a link on its front page - Ways to help with tsunami relief" |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Nemesis Date: 31 Dec 04 - 07:54 AM Why not instead of spending our energies debating this here, get "out there" and do something to help? I've just walked up to our local shops - full of people panicking about getting trolley-loads of food for the one day of famine in UK know as New Year's Day .. the banks don't have any signs up saying "donate here" yet, etc... no one is rattling a tin - albeit that it is reported that the British public has donated £1m an hour over the past 24 hours. So, I'm proposing getting the donation details photocopied off and standing outside the supermarket handing these out outside the supermarket - going into the banks and getting the managers to put signs up "donate here" (surely these can be downloaded from the various disaster appeal sites). Got go .. things to do. Cheers Nem |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:43 AM "And do you have a picture of the pain?"---Phil Ochs As always, vicarious stuff going on. Quit counting the dead---and get to the saving of lives. In this, I am pro-life! Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: CarolC Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:41 AM A small correction to my previous post. It should read: The per capita GDP of Saudi Arabia is approximately 31 percent of the per capita GDP of the US |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: CarolC Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:09 AM As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own. Ok, I did. Here's the text contained in your link: RIYADH, Dec 28 (Reuters) - Oil-rich Saudi Arabia pledged on Tuesday a $10 million aid package to victims of the tsunami disaster in Asia, which officials say has killed more than 59,000 people and affected millions of others. A statement on the official Saudi Press Agency said the country would donate $5 million worth of food, tents and medicine, to be transported and distributed via the Saudi Red Crescent. Another $5 million in funds will be given to several international aid groups such as the Red Cross and the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, the statement added. Neighbouring Gulf country Kuwait has pledged a little over $2 million in aid. The United Arab Emirates will donate 30 tonnes of food, blankets and clothing to the victims. Aid agencies struggled on Tuesday to cope with the scale of the disaster. The United Nations said communities would require billions of dollars to help them recover. The GDP of Saudi Arabia is approximately 31 percent of the GDP of the US (the GDP being a fairly good measure of available resources of a country). According to the article in your link, Saudi Arabia has committed 10 million dollars. According to the figures given in the posts preceding yours, the US had committed 35 million dollars. So that would mean that the amount committed to by the US as of the time of your post (as far as we can tell using the information in this thread), was only about three percent greater than that of Saudi Arabia in terms of percentage of available resources. I have some difficulty understanding why you would choose a thread about a tragedy of the magnitude of this one to make such a bigoted hatemongering post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:25 PM I read that it's estimated that the collections for this in Ireland so far amount to £3 per head (about $4.8), and that's without taking into account whatever the Government does. If only the other comfortably-off countries could match that it'd make a serious difference - it'd mean £1350 million pounds across the European Union, and about £900 from the USA. Adding up to £2,250 million - equivalent to $4430 million, just for those two regionsn of the world. That is the kind of money that is going to be needed And hell, that £3 a head isn't an unrealistic amount of money to give in a situation like that. I suspect that most Mudcatters will be giving more than that. And that is why the amounts so far promised by all our Governments really are not at all impressive. Money isn't the only thing or even the most important thing, but it's the necessary thing. Remember, for all we know that mountain in Las Palmas in the Canaries could slip into the sea tonight and when it does the people of the Atlantic could be facing the same catastrophe, only probably far worse. If it doesn't happen tonight it's certainly going to happen some time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Sorcha Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:08 AM 116,000 and counting....my paltry $100 won't go far, but it's something. This is one third the population of the entire state of Wyoming....I can't even imagine........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,KT Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:00 AM Martin, if your 9:47 post is in reference to tarheel's 9:44 post, I think you're wrong. I think his comments in that post are just the opposite of anti-American as you said. I believe they are born of his belief in the GREATNESS of this nation, one that is comprised of people who are deeply compassionate and generous in their response to the tremendous tragedy that has befallen our brothers and sisters. His expression of disappointment in that initial response is legitimate. I think it's BECAUSE he believes in the greatness of this nation that he is hoping for more. Our response to this tragedy need not be limited to initial reactions. This is an opportunity for the world to come together. May it be so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM If we had pledged a billion dollars to the UN's effort, imagine what that would have meant. We spend more than that daily just maintaining the charade of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Again, I ask the question, is the US news media underreporting the casualties and devastation because the Bush administration's attempts to minimize the scale of the catastrophe? Hell, even the US AID guy in the State Dept briefing said the news media is grossly underreporting the numbers of dead, because they are only using the figures of number of bodies recovered. Many of the bodies will never be recovered. He said people should be prepared for the numbers of dead to go much higher. As to the idea that a military response being right/wrong--I'm not saying no military support should have been given. Quite the contrary, I think the US military in the Pacific should have responded immediately, just as they would had this disaster happened off our coasts. I would credit Bush with setting up the coalition, if I thought that meant these nations were truly going to be coordinating things for the entire region, which is the awful part of this disaster--it is spread throughout 12 countries and thousands of thousands of miles of ocean between sites of devastation. But the US response, especially considering that we have a lot of hardware and troop strength in the region, just wasn't forthcoming. Two helicopters and an airplane? Jaysus, can we spare that much? |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Once Famous Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:47 AM Typical lefty posturing, this time trying to capitalize on a tragedy to finger point and get their anti-American agenda across. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: tarheel Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:44 AM i thought he(bush) missed a chance for the world to gain respect for the USA again... i somehow think that the administration did not believe that the tragedy was as big at first,as it really turned out to be... it was a golden opportunity for the USA to let the world see and know that we care about everyone and are willing to take a stand for those who need us! i just feel that we(the USA) should have taken the lead in world response to such a huge tragedy!... |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Mrr at work Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM Arthur C. Clarke has checked in, finally, he's OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:35 AM In a situation like this the only thing to do is to be ready to shoulder the cost, whatever it is. The same kind of attitude societies take to fighting a war. "Whatever need to be done, we'll do it." And that's not going to be a few million here and there, it's going to mean billions. The number who have died so far, which looks like topping 100,000, is just the start. It is estimated that there are five million survivors without the things they need to survive - clean water, food, shelter, medical help. It's the job of the rest of us, the lucky people who, through no merit of our own, weren't directly affected, to do whatever we can, however much that costs us and disrupts our cosy world. That means being ready to give directly as indivuals, but it also means doing what we can to force our political servants (who we treat as if they were our political masters) to respond adequately on our behalf. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Mrr at work Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:23 AM Right now they need troops - they need people to dispose of thousands and thousands of bodies. The experts can come in when the coast is clear, but it's a waste of expertise to just put them to work burning/burying bodies. But the dead and rotting are a tremendous hazard and may kill as many a sthe initial tsunamis did. Meanwhile, did anybody catch the amazing graphic they had behind the ABC news anchors? Really showed the dynamics of the waves. Why didn't they make that a main part of their anchorage? |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:13 PM All people care about other people, and want to do all they can to help in circumstances like these. Many of the westerners coming out of the devastated regions all speak of the generosity of the Sri Lankans, the Thai, etc etc. If we were able to keep the relief effort at that level, it would be wonderful. But disaster relief is big business, and fraught with geopolitical realities most people think get magically suspended at times of crisis. Nothing could be further from the truth. Because people aren't educated about those cold, hard, brutal realities of "foreign aid" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that we should all plug our ears, cover our eyes, and pull the blankets over our heads. It is much better to learn the truth, and then have some knowledge to carry us all forward to the next crisis, hopefully changing things for the better along the way, than simply deny that side of disaster assistance and relief exists and spit at the messengers saying otherwise. I've just watched a State Department briefing on C SPAN. Believe me, I'm not the only one disgusted by the Bush administration's militarist response to the crisis and attempt to usurp the UN's authority as the global institutional leader in humanitarian and refugee aid, assistance, and relief. The reporters kept asking why the US was forming this "Core Group" when it was UN's job to spearhead and coordinate. I'm not just making all this up out of thin air. The State Dept is also being challenged by the reporters in the briefing why it has taken so long for the US to dispatch the planes and ships already in the region to assist. I don't have any problem whatsoever with ships, helicopters, etc. being used for the rescue and recovery relief efforts in the immediate aftermath of the disaster. I have serious problems though, with sending in US troops (I mean come on, there aren't any blue helmets or other country's military going into the region that I've heard of) rather than US humanitarian experts and workers, and with any set up that results in our military remaining beyond the initial rescue and recovery phase as a presence in the region. Especially in the most unstable areas like Banda Aceh in Sumatra, where a civil war has been raging for years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Grab Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM Donuel, hopefully that will be immediate funding - if the various agencies need more then I trust it'll be provided (if the various countries in a position to contribute have any conscience). Certainly private individuals are contributing massively, in addition to any government aid. As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own. This was never about religion, it was about how much people (and their elected representatives) cared about people in other countries, and the elected representatives of some rich countries (the US and UK) were seen to be giving too little on behalf of their citizens. To their credit, most Western nations care deeply about people in trouble, which is why the US was stung into doubling contributions (although I'd be more impressed if they paid their UN money to help regular aid work outside of crises). I think the almost complete lack of assistance from the richest nations in the Middle East displays how little unity there is in the so-called "Muslim community" - and, incidentally, how little the leaders of those countries care about anything that isn't right on their doorstep. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Ebbie Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:37 PM Guest, I get the feeling that if the US did NOT use the military to bring in supplies you would be wondering here WHY NOT, since, you would no doubt say, it would be the fastest means and far more efficient. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Metchosin Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:27 PM Perhaps the UN offical's crack was dearly needed or perhaps the sheer magnitude of the disaster is finally sinking in, regardless, the Canadian government is now coughing up $40 million. Now lets see if the US government will up its ante, with an equivalent commitment of $400 million. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:03 PM Giving too much? MMMMWWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA!!! Sure we're good at rebuilding infrastructure. Look at how well we're doing it in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,heric Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:36 PM >>Bush administration and the chains attached to their aid are so far from noble and on the up and up<<< I can grasp that GUEST. But the hard part is that you will lambaste them if they give too much, and you will lambaste them if they give too little. I'm not going to reach your level of sophistication in these matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: robomatic Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:28 PM They are broadcasting 80,000 deaths and the counting is not over. As the delivery of disaster aid unfolds, the struggle will be to prevent disease from doubling the initial casualties. The latest I heard was that supplies are building up at the airports, but the infrastructure (roads to deliver the supplies, electricity to power water treatment pumps and refrigeration units) is going to be the challenge. The tsunami knocked a railroad train to hell and gone. Rebuilding infrastructure is something the US is historically quite good at. Let's get cracking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:12 PM " I enjoy being naïve and will work at staying that way. " Which is why we have the Bush and Blair administration continuing in power too. If you would rather remain naive in spite of the evidence, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Anyone who thinks disaster relief and humanitarian aid from the wealthy nations is all about good intentions is seriously deluded. The motives of the Bush administration and the chains attached to their aid are so far from noble and on the up and up, they are a whole universe away from your head in the sand, heric. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,heric Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM I agree with you Don H. that $35m is a mere pittance and I will be greatly disappointed if the US government does not help to a far greater extent than that number. I think and hope that that is a preliminary hard cash number. I can't agree for a second that aid to any of the nations should factor in Al Qaida or Muslim ethnic sentiments. If you do go down that (self-interest) path, look where you end up: Right at that last GUEST post which claims that US government giving aid in significant amounts can only be a conniving attempt upstage the U.N. Good heavens. I enjoy being naïve and will work at staying that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Once Famous Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM And what are you doing about it, Guest? Holding up a brown finger in the air hoping someone will smell it and give you joy? You need a padded room. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM BTW, it is easy to detect Bush's motives for forming his little "coalition" for sending aid to the region. He is setting up a dynamic to compete with both the UN and EU efforts, so he can turn around and condemn both institutions in the morning. One need only look at who his "partners" are in this endeavor to see through this sham at the expense of the Asian people desperating awaiting aid and assistance. So who does Bush send in? US troops, US military hardware, US military advisors. That will certainly reassure the Indonesian Muslims, I'm sure. Or did everyone forget that Indonesia is a hotbed of radical Muslim activity and on Shrub's "war on terrorism" hit list. This disaster provides the perfect opportunity for Bush to peacefully invade yet another Muslim nation. And this international coalition Bushie Boy is gonna head up, of India, Japan, Australia, and US, is more than a bit suspicious, especially in the wake of the stock market news in India when all this was being announced. And according the US Agency for International Development, we have now raised a whopping $110 million worldwide to deal with this crisis. In fact, this new American coalition of the Asian willing is as genuine and sincere as Martin Gibson's claims of being compassionate about the Asian victims he and the Bush administration immediately wrote off in the wake of the catastrophe. Don't get me wrong, the survivors will be damn glad to see the US warships that have the ability to produce up to 90,000 gallons of water a day. But we also know it will only be a tiny drop in a huge bucket of need for those people, and when it's all over, we'll still have US troops in Indonesia to wage our war on the Muslims there too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Once Famous Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:42 PM Oh, Guest, you bore me with your political anti-american agenda. what do you have? A masters degree in bullshit? The latest news is that India is turning down all relief. OK, fine. We offered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM Couldn't agree more, Donuel. Considering the number of Muslims in the area hit by the quake and tsunamis, it would certainly behoove the US & Britain particularly, to be a bit more forthcoming with cash AND compassion, or we'll have signed our own death warrants in Asia as well as the Middle East. 14% of India's population is Muslim. 100% of the population of the Maldives is Muslim. Only 7% of Sri Lankans are Muslim, but a whopping 88% of Indonesia, the country hardest hit, are Muslim, along with 60% of Malaysians. And the whole Muslim world is certainly watching the US & Britain right now, and the EU & UN to a lesser extent. One need only look at the levels of aid the international relief community has poured into Iraq in the last year and half to see just how skewed relief efforts have been in the imperial Shrub II era. Gerhard Schroeder is wisely advocating for debt relief for the hardest hit countries like Indonesia, just as it was given to Iraq, after the US and Britain strong armed their allies into it earlier this year. Billions of dollars in international & US aid money has been dumped down the bottomless pit that is Iraq in the past year and half, and all the US can scrounge together for the entire south Asian region is a measly $35 million bucks. Read the overview about the politics of disaster relief aid in the other thread, match it up with the news that is already out there (like Schroeder's suggestion that some debt relief be given to the region, comments by UN officials about the niggardly response from the world's wealthiest nations, etc) and it all begins to add up to our US government's intentions to do as little as it possibly can to extend aid, comfort and assistance to the region, much less our compasssion. Why the very idea of the US being a compassionate nation has become a cruel and bitter joke around the world, and the predicatably despicable Bush administration response is the exact reason why more and more people around the world view the US government and it's "aid and development" agencies and arms with such contempt. |
