Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 04:32 PM

Reply to Bearded Bruce
The USA and the the so called Coalition of the Willing invaded Iraq without a UN mandate.Operation Shock and Awe was an illegal and murderous act of war.
The US and UK's illegal involvement in Iraq's internal affairs started long before Iraq invaded Kuwait and even before it helped Saddam to power.
Hey,Bearded Bruce you are like some parrot of the Pentagon.....
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

Bill Clinton, Nov. 14, 1994

'Sec. 3. Department of Commerce Controls. (a) The Secretary of
Commerce shall prohibit the export of any goods, technology, or
services subject to the Secretary's export jurisdiction that the
Secretary of Commerce determines, in consultation with the
Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, and other
appropriate officials, would assist a foreign country in
acquiring the capability to develop, produce, stockpile, deliver,
or use weapons of mass destruction or their means of delivery.
The Secretary of State shall pursue early negotiations with
foreign governments to adopt effective measures comparable to
those imposed under this section.'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:53 PM

"blockaded invaded and occupied Iraq "


Ever hear about Kuwait, and the UN?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

Another interesting series of incidents involve our naval forces in the Persian Gulf, and the 1987 dramatic attack on the guided-missle frigate Stark with air-to-sea missles by an Iraqi fighter: Click here for article
Apparently the Iraqi jet thought it was attacking an Iranian tanker and apologies were accepted from the Iraqi government for the mistake.

The lesson we apparently learned that day was to shoot first and ask questions later. Then we shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jet.

I may not be adding any clarity to the discussion, but I find the details interesting.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

bb - I'll pick 'Saddam DID use these WMD on his own citizens'.

The question remains:

Would he have been able to kill Iranian soldiers and Kurds if this hadn't occurred?

"the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases."

He was capable of such atrocities because the U.S. enabled him.

Doesn't this make the U.S. an accessory to the crime?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Reply to bearded bruce,
Saddam was a vicius mass killer and he deserved to die. It is the role of the USA and the UK which are worthy of further scrutiny as both countries have interfered,intervened,plotted against,blockaded invaded and occupied Iraq over the course of the past few decades.Saddam was their man,their killer and had gone off message.
All this because of the vast reserves of oil under the sand....after all Iraq would have been ignored if it had specialised in growing prize onions.
Oh and bearded bruce I am not your chum...I couldnt be chummy with somebody who parrots the neo con warline despite the barbarism it has unleashed.
Both Bush and Blair and a few others should be in the dock for the war crimes committed at Habitha,Abu Ghraib,Fallujah and elsewhere.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

Ifor. old chum.

Let me see if I understand you/

"The US govt supplied everything from unrefined sarin by hundreds of tonnes to bacteria strains "


So, what you are saying is that either Saddam DID use these WMD on his own citizens, certainly a crime worthy of the death penalty, or that he had them at the time of the US invasion, since the UN has no record of it being destroyed.

Pick one...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

Freda DOES make a good point: The US has a great track record of backing people and organization in destabilized countries who ultimately turn and bite the hand that's feeding them.

Like a free market enterprize, I wonder what would happen if we said "nuts" to all of them and let them work out all their problems. No arms, no foreign aid, no embassy to target. Hmmm. Yet we keep trying.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

just Google - CDC biological Saddam.

"A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to
    former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government
    provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists
    in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other
    deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator
    Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist
    to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. "

Congressional Record

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:16 AM

Teribus..."utterly laughable" you say.
You are as about convincing as a camel with its head stuck up its arse.
The role of the USA and the UK in supporting and financing Saddam is well documented.

George Bush Snr was a constant backer of Saddam .The US govt supplied everything from unrefined sarin by hundreds of tonnes to bacteria strains to sophisticated communications equipment to up to the minute military intelligence, from helicopter engines to dual use equipment of all kinds.

Furthermore the work of the US-Iraq Business Forum was augmented by Kissinger Associates which did much to ensure that trade between US corporations and Saddam's Iraq went smoothly.

The neo cons squirm now at the connection between the US and Saddam and would dearly love to write it out of history,hence the attack on people like Robert Fisk who has been a close observer of the role of the USA in the Middle East for many years.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

Sorry, I forgot to mention my reaction having read Mr Fisk's article.

The man really should apply a timeline to such a tale. It would then become obvious to him where the numerous contradictions exist in his line of reasoning.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

"We do know however that the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people."

That according to Ifor

Now between 1973 and 1990 Iraq was considered to be the richest market for arms traders and manufacturers. Here are the figures for those years presented as percentage of total sales:

Russia - 68.9% between 1973 and 1977 they were the sole supplier of arms to Saddam Hussein.
France - 12.7%
China - 11.8%
Others - 4.8%
Egypt - 1.3%
USA - 0.5%

Ifor is asking us to believe that, "the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people", when during that time they supplied Saddam with less than one percent of the arms required to maintain Saddam in power in order that he could terrorise his people and attack his neighbours. Utterly laughable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:52 AM

I agree, Ron, many Sunnis, as well as Shias, were afraid of Saddam Hussein. Both Sunnis and Shia Iraqis left Iraq in droves, seeking refuge during his regime.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM

Well, it seems that the upsurge in violence predicted as a result of Saddam's death is not happening. It's still miserable in Iraq (aside from "Kurdistan"), but no worse than it was.

I said earlier, not all Sunnis, by a long shot, wanted anything to do with Saddam.   Many Sunnis, as distinguished from Baathists--no matter what Teribus says--may well be relieved. After all, it takes away a plausible reason for mistreating them---no more fear by the Shiites of a coup to restore Saddam. And Maliki can point this out to Sadr.

Now the ball is definitely in Maliki's court--will he in fact start to purge the Shiite militias from the police? If not, he's squandered a great opportunity to defuse the insurgency.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:35 AM

The U.S. government began "enabling" Saddam as early as 1959 when the CIA enlisted his help in undermining the government of Abdul Karim Qasim. The young Saddam was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad which botched the assassination of then Iraqi prime minister General Abdul-Karim Qasim.

The U.S. supported the coup that put Saddam in power in 1968, continued into the 1980s. The infamous Rumsfeld visit symbolized the U.S. policy of providing military and diplomatic assistance to the Iraqi regime in its catastrophic war with Iran. Cole points out that Secretary of State George Shultz even went so far as to shield Saddam from a possible UN condemnation for Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran.

The U.S. ambassador April Glaspie gave a "green light" to Saddam just before Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. She was "retired" by the State Department and has been conveniently silent ever since.

In 1989, on December 20, 1983 in Baghdad Saddam Hussein met with his friend Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was sent by then president Ronald Reagan to help Saddam fight the Islamic revolution in Iran. This close cooperation led to Washington selling loads of military equipment and also chemical precursors, insecticides, aluminum tubes, missile components and anthrax Iraq. They were used to gas Iranian soldiers and then civilian Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq, in 1988.

After the Halabja massacre, the Pentagon engaged in a massive disinformation campaign, spinning that the massacre was caused by Iran. US military aid enabled the US to invade Kuwait in 1990. Between 1991 and 1998, UN weapons inspectors conclusively established that the US - as well as British, German and French firms - had sold missile parts and chemical and bacteriological material to Iraq.

more here THE RAT TRAP asiatimesonline

Saddam Hussein was captured at the time when Halliburton was under extreme pressure for effectively swindling American taxpayers.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM

Dear Mr. Growler, you may have worked at the Home Office for 26 years but obviously you have never studied logic and debate. The fallacy you commit it the appeal to authority. In what capacity did you work? Were you a janitor or a senior analyst? Teribus is correct to ask for facts. Merely announcing that you worked in the Home Office proves nothing except that you were gainfully employed. I'd like to hear more.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

Anyone who thinks this solves anything never read "Julius Caesar."

~D

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:21 PM

The death of Saddam changes nothing.

The American death toll now stands at 3,000 and is climbing.

Bloodiest month for American troops in Iraq in over two years.

And for some reason, no one in the world can tell us how many Iraqis have died.

The civil war in Iraq is raging.

Sleep well, Bush and Blair.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM

Teribus
Thanks for your comments, but I worked for the Home Office for 26 years. Enough said

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and
      contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or
      Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices
      as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3
      May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol,
      willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

Thank you JTT for posting that Robert Fisk article, reading it made me very angry, how could Bush and his cohorts hold themselves up as paragons of virtue when their countrymen are steeped in the blood of the innocent.
It is true that the victor writes the history, do the people of the USA not feel ashamed that the Kurds and Iranis were murdered by the hideous weapons supplied to Hussein by their country, the USA and to a lesser extent the British governments should be tried as war criminals.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

and he ends the article with this:

"The whole truth died with Saddam Hussein in the Baghdad execution chamber yesterday. Many in Washington and London must have sighed with relief that the old man had been silenced for ever."

Thats the only reason I am saddened by the death of Saddam.

If he had been tried for the deaths of the Kurds, the U.S. would have been implicated.

The manufacture, sale and trade of weapons has driven the destruction of Iraq but those who have supplied the means, walk away free with their pockets jingling.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

A quote from reporter Robert Fisk's piece in today's Independent :

The Iraqis had used, for the first time, a combination - the nerve gas would paralyse their bodies ... the mustard gas would drown them in their own lungs. That's why they spat blood."

At the time, the Iranians claimed that this terrible cocktail had been given to Saddam by the US. Washington denied this. But the Iranians were right. The lengthy negotiations which led to America's complicity in this atrocity remain secret - Donald Rumsfeld was one of President Ronald Reagan's point-men at this period - although Saddam undoubtedly knew every detail. But a largely unreported document, "United States Chemical and Biological Warfare-related Dual-use exports to Iraq and their possible impact on the Health Consequences of the Persian Gulf War", stated that prior to 1985 and afterwards, US companies had sent government-approved shipments of biological agents to Iraq. These included Bacillus anthracis, which produces anthrax, andEscherichia coli (E. coli). That Senate report concluded that: "The United States provided the Government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-systems programs, including ... chemical warfare agent production facility plant and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

I don't know how Blair and Bush can sleep at night.
I have no time for Saddam Hussein and his henchmen or the terrorists. They are pure evil.

However, I cannot get over what Blair & Bush have done to Iraq as a country. So many innocent people killed and their country left ruined.
The damage is done and I feel really sorry for all the poor "innocent" people who through no fault of their own are left to bear the cross.

I do hope for everybody's sake that Iraq can be sorted out sooner than later. Its no good Bush and Blair turning their backs on these people, they have a big debt to pay.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:31 AM

Sinsull, did you read the sand man`s post, he gets straight to the truth, and there is nothing hidden if anyone cares to look back at America and Britains role in creating a monster.
The United States should hang it`s head in shame and apologise to the Kurds for supplying Sddam Hussein with the nerve gas.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:22 AM

I have given myself a few days to think about it before posting. I am not sure why but I am genuinely upset over Saddam's death and could not care less about Ford's.

He died with a certain dignity when I guess I had hoped for a little snivelling and begging for mercy. At any rate, something is very wrong about this entire affair and I can't yet put my finger on it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

I dreamed they were about to show the hanging on TV, tuning in at the point of the hyped announcements-- but the control room was screwed up so instead of a picture from Iraq it was a closeup of an opening sharks' mouth coming at me (I was seeing it from Saddam's eyes). Of course, I woke myself up before it got to me!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Sand Man
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

The tendecy to forget is seen in many of the replies in this thread.
Saddam was described by former British Prime Minister Ted Heath as a "gentleman", Ted was a frequent visitor to Iraq and believede that Saddam had "been very good for Iraq", and another visitor was Rumsfeld a supporter of Iraq in the war against Iran, Rumsfeld did well for his US masters courting the dictator in his war against the enemy of the US.

Who encouraged the invasion of Iran? Who supplied Saddam with the components for the chemical weapons with which he drenched Iran and the Kurds? and who ensured that the charges he faced in his trial forbade the west`s culpability?.

Perhaps it is fitting that Bush went to bed early in Texas on Friday night, with explicit directions that he was not to be diturbed and leaving a prepared statement on Saddam`s execution.
The west helped create this monster, yet as justice was finally seen to be done, Bush pulled the covers over his head. Meanwhile, Blair is on holiday at a pop star`s luxury beach resort.

There is no doubt that the execution of Saddam marks the end of a dark period of Iraqi history, a dark period of Iraqi history is continuning. Sddam left misery in his wakein Iraq, but the US and the British are continuing to add to this terrible toll, and while Saddam has lost, and paid the ultimate price with his life, his captors certainly have won nothing yet.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:11 AM

There are plenty of "brown sandwiches" to go around.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:34 AM

Ritchie, I am well aware of the conditions, having had neighbours from there and going to sweats conducted by one of their well-known healers, as well as been good friends with an Ogalala who started an art school for Ogalala children on the Rosebud. I don't think their conditions mean they should have to have it any worse with that filth (Saddam) living there, too.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:24 AM

Well, duh, bobad!!! Yuk Yuk! Good shot Sol!

re: our teachers, We ARE the Dutch, the Germans, the etc. The English were very adept at placing the Dutch, the Germans, etc. between them and the Indians in the early days of this country. The accepted norm of attitude and sensibilities was quite different than they are today. Enlightenment continues and our 20-20 hindsight just gets better and better with each new trend. We, today are as much a product of our culture as our ancestors were of theirs. Out great grandchildren will tsk, tsk, us from their lofty point of view and wonder how we could ever have thought such thoughts or done such things!

I met Lame Deer, A Chief of the Ogalala in the mid '70s. He was a very charming and learned man. Indeed, why would you inflict Saddam on the Ogalala?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:16 AM

Katlaughing,

Maybe you don't really know the deplorable conditions and dire poverty which the Oglala indians live.

Might as well make Saddam suffer for his sins.

Richie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:22 PM

"the place where the legendary virgins are and then realizing that he did not have any Viagra with him."

That's not paradise Sol, that's the other place.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM

Rapaire.
"...I could point out that those who taught the Americans how to deal with Indians, Africans, and others were English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch...but I won't. There were some awfully good teachers, though... "

It isn't the teaching that counts - It's how the former student applies the lessons learned.

W

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

Ritchie, why should the Ogalala suffer?

Rabbi-Sol: LOL!!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Genie (Wha hoppen ma cookie?)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

What you said, 282RA!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM

growler - 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

"Wouldn't it be wonderful, if we could have a proper investigation of the David Kelly affair and the half trues that led to the invasion of Iraq. If it were found that Blair was guilty, would we hang him. I like to think so"

Growler - not to point out the obvious, but there have been THREE independent inquiries, one specifically about the death of David Kelly. None of these inquiries has led to any conclusion that you would find acceptable. Now I am sorry, old son but the rules demanded by such inquiries are fairly strict and require some degree of factual evidence before any conclusion and judgement are reached. So far there has been no evidence produced that any "half truths" or lies that were told.

Now Growler, if you dispute this point of mine you damn well come with come with some fact to back up your contentions. I don't think that you will because the weight of fact lies behind my arguement.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

To fdrag a helpless person from a jail cell and kill him is not too different from what he did. In any case, it's not justice, it's revenge. "Vengence is mine" sayith the Lord.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:35 PM

The real pain that Saddam felt was not the hangman's noose. It was arriving at the place where the legendary virgins are and then realizing that he did not have any Viagra with him.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:33 PM

Hang ALL the war criminals!

Peter

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

"let me say this to any semi-literate who want to debate this: start another thread. Full-Literates welcome too!"

HEY. My parents were married!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

Wouldn't it be wonderful, if we could have a proper investigation of the David Kelly affair and the half trues that led to the invasion of Iraq. If it were found that Blair was guilty, would we hang him. I like to think so

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

I think we should have made Saddam live with the Oglala indians in South Dakota.

Richie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

kat, that was my point! The US Government is all blow and no go where Indians are concerned. If we as a nation "owe" any one group, it's the American Indians. In lieu of our honest, fair-dealing Uncle Sam, how are the successful Indians doing in helping their brothers?

Of course the sole burden shouldn't be on their shoulders---BUT IT IS! So, are they going to prove the US government's actons were right by treating their own the same way? Let's hope not. I voted favorably for Indian Casinos in my state and in my area and I thouhgt, "At last, a way to restore some equity, self-respect and dignity" even though many pitfalls were apparent. It really saddens me when I hear about some small "tribe" of fifteen or twenty people voting to oust other members (read: Family members) for various reasons (such as, they don't want to share the wealth) and then for a per centage sell out the entire operation of the casino to a Nevada firm (another "Family"?) and then do nothing but play "Fat Cat" all the long day. It ain't right. Nor is the impact when you have to spell it out.

This is pretty far afield from the thread topic so just let me say this to any semi-literate who want to debate this: start another thread. Full-Literates welcome too!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: 282RA
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

Well, well, well...Saddam is dead.

Yippee. Hooray.

3000 American dead along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis--and all to execute this cat. I sure hope it was worth to you, America, because it sure didn't seem to me like it was worth the bother.

I don't know about you (and don't care to so don't bother responding) but I don't feel any safer. I don't think the world is really any better off unless Saddam's death can reverse the global warming trend, then I'll rethink my position. I don't think terrorism was dealt a blow at all. I would, however, like to know why Saddam--who had nothing to do with 9-11--is dead and Osama bin-Laden--who masterminded 9-11--is still alive and still free and Bush himself says he really doesn't think much about him anymore.

Really sounds to me like retarded Georgie got the wrong guy once again. Has Bush done ONE thing right since he took office? Really, I would to know just ONE thing he improved as president instead of botched and screwed up. It's pretty fucking sad when you eliminate this ruthless tyrant and somehow manage to make the lives of his former-subjects far worse than they ever were while he ruled.

I wonder, though, did the American military-industrial complex get paid back for all the weapons and gases they gave Saddam to kill people with? Or did he pay it back and so he was now a liabilty? Or did he refuse to pay them back so they wanted to show all the dictators in the world vying for US support that we better get paid back or else?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

I have no real feelings about the politics of all this. Saddam Hussein was a person who the world can probably do without but he isn't alone in that. Whether he should have died or not, whether he will be a martyr or not, whether there will be reprisals or not, the question remains: What gives us the right to kill another human being?

There are lots of people who possibly 'deserve' death but to quote JRR Tolkein in "Lord of the Rings"
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement."

I know that I personally do not want the death of ANY other human being on my conscience. For me to condone that death makes me just one little step towards what he was

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

On the Shoshone-Bannock Reservation just north of where I live there is a 40% unemployment rate. And white "entrepeneurs" come in and try to take advantage of them because of this -- stuff like putting in highly polluting industries and getting them to waive cleanup (as happened, and the Tribal Business Council reportedly replied "We might be Indians, but we're not dumb Indians!").

I have long failed to understand why some people, of whatever ancestry, feel that they are superior to others because of their religion, skin color, or whatever.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

As others have pointed out the majority of NDNs live well below the poverty line. And, anyone who works at their casinos is not making much more than minimum wage; I know, my son-in-law works at Foxwoods.

what are the "have" Indians doing to help their own "have-not" Indians??

Why should the onus be on them anymore than the rest of society to help each other? Should we ask what are Pilgrims doing to help their own? etc.? Lots of NDNs find not much in common with one another just as a white liberal may not find much in common with a white(is there any other kind?) skinhead. Should they be called to task for what they might be doing to "help their own" if "their own" means skin colour or ethnicity? Not, IMO.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

texting now

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:31 PM

And Peece--hau r yu?