A Wish for Autism

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:01 AM

Just to add that whilst we were happy to get the correct diagnosis for both our daughters, we were very upset that they had it. That will go with us to the grave.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:58 AM

A circle of Autism normally refers to a group of people who have been or are affected by Autism and meet on a regular basis.

There are many groups in Lincolnshire.

However, when you are diagnosed with Autism you have an Autistic Spectrum Disorder and that diagnosis can only be given by specialists in that field.

From NAS
Who will diagnose my child?
There are a number of different health professionals who may be involved in diagnosing an ASD. Most frequently these would be psychiatrists, clinical psychologists and, in the case of children, paediatricians. In some areas there may be 'multi-disciplinary teams' (teams made up of a number of different health professionals) involved in diagnosing autism. It is important to make sure that whoever sees your child has a good knowledge of ASD.

Any parent with an ounce of decency for their child/chidren will fight long and hard to get a correct diagnosis.

If you go to a GP that has no knowledge of Autism, you stand the chance of not getting you child diagnosed correctly.

Autism and ADHD seem to go cap in hand with families. However, try and get an ADHD child diagnosed is like p*ssing in the wind.

We knew at a very early age that our older daughter was ADHD, but try as we would, they would not allow a diagnosis unless she was over the age of, I think 5/6 so that they could eleminate the temper tantrums.

My daughter was about 9 when we finally decided to refer her for diagnosis. Fortunately one of our doctors at that time was interested in Autism and ADHD. So she referred her to a specialist at the hospital. By that time I was well versed on Autism and ADHD becuase of my other daughter being diagnosed with Autism.

The meeting with the specialist was a total waste of space. He knew nothing about Autism or ADHD and just sat there and said "There is nothing wrong with this child, that good parenting wouldn't solve". F***ing pillock.

Fortunately the specialist that was handling my Autistic daughters case, having chatted to him about it, was prepared to do a second opinion.

We visited him for about 10 weeks whilst he did lots of different tests on her. At the end he gave me a complete diagnosis and explained the results in a very clear way to me. He reffered her to the psychiatrist for final diagnosis. One meeting and she was officially diagnosed with ADHD. Something we knew from the age of 3.

So in fairness it is very possible to be Autistic or ADHD without diagnosis, becuase of the system and people who know FA about it.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM

Obviously ignored the first time so I will try again.

Lizzie -

Neither you nor any of your family have been diagnosed as autistic by a qualified professional.

By stating that everyone with any of the symptoms you mention could be suffering from autism have you the remotest idea what damage you are doing to people who genuinely want to help? If we were to include everyone with any of the symptoms in your 'circle' I think you would find that 60 or 70% of the population, having exhibited at least one trait at some time in their lives, would be diagnosed by you as being autistic. If more than 50% of the population have the same condition it is obviously the norm and should, therefore, not be treated at all. Is that what you want?

There is one thing I would agree with. You realy do need help.

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:31 AM

"One of the commonest mistakes made by clinicians lacking experience with autistic disorders is to observe the person's clumsiness, or reading difficulty, or poor attention span and to diagnose that as the main problem. They miss the fact that underlying the obvious difficulties seen on the surface is an autistic spectrum disorder with the characteristic social impairments."

So you have decided that this means that every clumsy or socially backward person you have ever known is autistic.

That's what I thought.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:23 AM

I have ALWAYS called the circle of autism exactly that.

Most people would regard that as ridiculous since you seem to be the only person who does.

And when you say "always", what you mean is the beginning of this thread.

But it is OK Lizzie, words can mean what you say they mean.

I think outside the 'expert' boxes, because I have my own mind, ideas and thoughts and I know that there is always something new to be discovered, a different way of looking at things, which may open new doors and opportunities.

That's great and I am delighted for you. I look forward to hearing about them.

You say 'Why?', I say 'Why not?'

Actually Lizzie you talk horlicks and I ask "Why?". Not the same thing at all.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:04 AM

Dave, I am a free person, a free thinker, and I will only ever answer a question if I choose to. The reasons I choose not to belong to me entirely, but you are free to make up your own mind about those reasons, so long as you appreciate they are *your* reasons, not mine.   

I have ALWAYS called the circle of autism exactly that.

I always will.

I think outside the 'expert' boxes, because I have my own mind, ideas and thoughts and I know that there is always something new to be discovered, a different way of looking at things, which may open new doors and opportunities.

You say 'Why?', I say 'Why not?'






Below is a highly talented artist, who can reproduce every single detail of what he sees, no matter how minute. His mind 'takes the photographs' and leaves them there for him to put on to canvas or paper...

The amazing artwork of Stephen Wiltshire

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:01 AM

I can answer for you Lizzie.

Neither you or any of your family have been diagnosed as autistic by a qualified professional.

This is something you will bluster and twist and squirm about but you will not deny it. You have cynicaly and callously jumped on the autism bandwagon and if you carry on like this you will do no end of harm to the people who genuinely suffer from the condition. It is you who should never have started this thread because autism realy does have nothing to do with your mad twitterings.

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:45 PM

You are correct - you don't have to answer anyone's questions. But people can see when you duck and dive.

And that's what people remember.

And you will note that the National Autistic Society refers throughout to "AUTISM SPECTRUM DISORDER".

But then of course they don't have the advantage of seeing inside your head.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:27 PM

Taken from the National Autistic Society site here...


"Developmental disorders that are not in the autistic spectrum but often occur together with an autistic spectrum disorder


These developmental disorders can occur on their own - that is, the child or adult concerned does not have the triad of impairments. However, the disorders listed below very often occur as part of the picture of an autistic spectrum disorder.

One of the commonest mistakes made by clinicians lacking experience with autistic disorders is to observe the person's clumsiness, or reading difficulty, or poor attention span and to diagnose that as the main problem. They miss the fact that underlying the obvious difficulties seen on the surface is an autistic spectrum disorder with the characteristic social impairments.

It is of the greatest importance that the autistic spectrum disorder is recognised and the appropriate help and services provided.

Attention deficit/hyperactive disorder (ADHD)
Poor attention span together with marked overactivity.

Hyperkinetic disorder
Marked overactivity without poor attention span.

Attention deficit disorder (ADD)
Poor attention span without marked overactivity.

Tourette's syndrome
A condition in which the person has many sudden involuntary, jerky movements and vocal noises they cannot control.

Dyslexia
Specific difficulty with reading.

Dyspraxia
Specific difficulty with co-ordinating movements.

Developmental co-ordination disorder
The same as dyspraxia.

Motor coordination disorder
Again, the same as dyspraxia.

Disorder of attention, motor co-ordination and perception (DAMP)
Used when the person has a combination of these problems. The perceptual problem may, for example, be dyslexia."


My friend, diagnosed dyspraxic whilst at University. She has symptoms of autism, including a very noticeably heightened sense of smell, touch, vision, sound, leading to many anxieties. Her son, diagnosed dyslexic by his school, with the same heightened senses as his mother, together with the 'timetable' questions which Spaw speaks of above, wanting to know what is happening 'next' all the time..
My brother, severely dyslexic, with again, the same oversensitive senses. Deeply creative and now realising that he lives his life very differently to what others consider 'normal'.

Ii believe that there are many, many crossover points on the circle, and that is why so often the autism part is not diagnosed as it should be, as stated above by the NAS.

And then, of course...there is Tourette's....and again, I have a friend whose son was finally diagnosed with this, after years of her begging the doctors to investigate further, in fact, since he was a little baby. He never slept more than an hour a night...My brother was the same, two hours, if mum was lucky and that went on for many years...

And here is the amazing story of a man called Nick Van Bloss, who has suffered very severe Tourettes since birth. Then he found that playing the piano stopped the Tourettes completely. He has always loved music. He went on to become a wonderful pianist. He also went on a journey to see if it was the Tourette's that gave him his gift...and in doing so, discovered someone with a very similar story..

Nick's story - BBC Horizon documentary 'Glad to be Mad'

Nick's Website

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:22 PM

My father was not autistic, but dyslexic.   I do not have to answer any of your questions, Dave. Believe it or not, YOU are not compulsory.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:13 PM

Lizzie - it is clear you dodge all sorts of answers to questions you find difficult.

The most obvious ones are those relating to how and when these diagnoses of your family were made, especially your late father.

Another is where other than this forum you have made a contribution to discussions about autism - given your vast personal knowledge, theories and beliefs.

It actually looks like you posting (a relatively common) message from Facebook (suitably altered for autism) and then looking up articles and programmes to support your argument.

It certainly does not look as if you had any previous knowledge on the subject other than some self-diagnosis related to what you have read.

When did you first mention that your father was autistic? This thread.

And whilst you have mentioned your children before I don't recall you describing them as autistic before. Dyslexic yes, autistic - no.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:44 PM

From Robomatic:

"FYI
Wednesday- Temple Grandin is going to be on Talk of The Nation in about ten minutes. You can probably download it from NPR.ORG by tomorrow."

Thank you, robo. Here's the link..although I can't listen to the programme 'live' at present..I'll try again tomorrow.

Temple Grandin on NPR - Talk of the Nation - A Life With Animals


Dan, tell me about those bloomin letters! Also S 5 and 8, gee, even to this day I have to write them like a 5 year old, as it confuses my brain totally..

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:59 PM

wish I could get my hands of the guy that invented the b and the d's both still look exactly the same to me. But there is life with Dyslexia. I have published in every scientific journal in my career on software engineering ... all I can say ... Thank God for spell checkers.

When I grew up we were just called stupid. Then a great teacher said maybe there is something with this kid ... gave me a battery of IQ tests, then I went from stupid to gifted .. talk about messing up a kids head ...!! Thank God they have ways of helping today instead of leaving a kid to learn to read by himself as in my case ...

Autism, however, a curse for our children .. I wish with all my heart it ends.

Thank you

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM

FYI
Wednesday- Temple Grandin is going to be on Talk of The Nation in about ten minutes. You can probably download it from NPR.ORG by tomorrow.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

sorry a few words got left out there

it should read

Assessment of Autistic Spectrum Disorders takes place by a Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, an Educational or Clinical Psychologist in the UK

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

Lizzie I HAVE read that you describe your son as suffering from dyslexia as he apprantly had difficulty in being 'able to spell or write properly'

I sympahize with that as I had the same problem in school myself. Unfortunately being of the generation of your brother, I was never formally diagnozed (dyslexia not being recognized until the 1980s)

Under the terms of the 2005 Disability Discrimination Act, all people who are in full-time education (whether they are children, or adults) are entitled to a dyslexia assessment so no doubt your son was able to benefit from this rather than the very dubious 'free on-line' so called assessments

I'm suprised that the older members of your family (particularly your late father) were diagnozed but maybe this is a 'diagnosis' you have susequently applied to them?

However, as I said previously, it's not a bundle of fun and certainly in no way a 'gift' it has certainly not given me any outstanding talents but neither has it prevented me in achieving what I set out to do.


Dyslexia is a specific learning difficulty which mainly affects the development of literacy and language related skills which may not match up to an individual's other cognitive abilities.


PLEASE DO NOT CONFLATE DYSLEXIA WITH AUTISM
- whatever so called circle you imagine in your head!


Autism is defined in terms of a triad of impairments:

social relationships
social language and communication skills
imagination

The triad is usually accompanied by repetitive patterns of behaviour and interests, and often by challenging behaviour

"Around 75% of children with autistic spectrum disorders have general learning difficulties that fall in the moderate (IQ 35-50) range.
About 10% of children with autistic spectrum disorders have some special skill at a much higher level than the rest of their abilities, for example music, art, numerical calculations or jigsaw puzzles. Some have a remarkable memory for dates and things that particularly interest them."

"Children with Asperger Syndrome are amongst the most able of those within the autistic spectrum and will often be educated in mainstream schools as they do not have such an obvious learning disability.
Unfortunately, children with Asperger Syndrome have a higher degree of self-awareness so often more aware of the impediments to normal social relationships that they experience and this can lead to a painful degree of distress or anger towards others."

(International Psychology Services)in association with the UK National Autistic Society

While some see pragmatic language disorder as the mild end of the autistic spectrum, others see it as a distinct but overlapping area of difficulty.


The diagnosis of autism is a medical one, and will usually be made by a Psychiatrist.
Diagnosis is clinical with reference to the criteria established by the American Psychiatric Association in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM-IV, 1994).


So far you have not answered the question asked a couple of times whether your children have been formally diagnozed with autism which is a somewhat different situation from your description of your daughter -
"(her) incredible artistic talent, which has been there from when she was born, goes hand in hand with SO many symptoms of autism that you'd not believe it!"

Lizzie this question is not "vicious, snidey, or sarcastic"

It is a simple request to enable people to assess the level of experience you claim.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:09 PM

It is.



13 year old Luke's book 'Freaks, Geeks and Aspergers Syndrome' - (see BBC link above)

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

I have joined, and I hope many others will.

Try this.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 12:33 PM

Sorry, I hadn't realised that this was a personal slagging thread, I thought it had something to do with caring for people with Autism. I'll cut off now. My sincere apologies for interfering.

Love and Fishes.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:59 AM

And in here, you will discover Dr. Temple Grandin talking about how people on the autism circle are so often very gifted.


A Profile of Gifted Individuals with Autism

>>>>>In citing work done on autism by Robin Clark in 1993 she explains:

"The disorder may occur if a person receives too big a dose of genetic
traits which are only beneficial in smaller amounts. For example, a slight tendency to fixate on a single subject can enable a person to focus and accomplish a great deal, whereas a stronger tendency to fixate prevents normal social interaction" (Grandin, 1995, p. 177).

She concludes that "the genetic traits that can cause severe disabilities can also provide the giftedness and genius that has produced some of the world's greatest art and scientific discoveries" (Grandin, 1995, p. 187). <<<<


So there you go, no need to take just my word for it any longer. You have it from one of the most wonderful minds, a mind on the autism circle itself, Dr. Temple Grandin, and if anyone has just found this thread, then you can hear the supremely intelligent Dr. Grandin talking on the link below, which I'll repost as it's got lost in all these messages...

Dr. Temple Grandin - Youtube - Talking about Autism

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

BBC News - Luke Jackson's story - Why My Autism is a Gift ..in which Luke, who has Aspergers, also talks of being bullied at school...

...just in case people don't believe what I'm saying...

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:35 AM

"These parents know that their children may never grow up to lead normal lives, and live every day with the fear of what will happen to their children once they are gone. How DARE you compare your situation with theirs, or tell them how they ought to feel about this terrible syndrome that has, in many cases, severely limited their children's lives?"


Do you not read my posts? Do you not read how many times I've told you about Ben, Daisy, Hannah, my own family?

Did you not read how Daisy has to be cared for 24/7 in a home, as her parents were not able to cope? Did you not read how every Sunday they bring her home, trying to get her not to sit down in the road?

Did you not read how Ben tried to throw himself off his windowsill at age 10, after the vicious bullying he had to endure at school?

Did you not read how Hannah was punched in the face and her family had to move away from Sidmouth, to free themselves of the vicious bullying their own, gentle, deeply sensitive and frightened daughter had to endure?

Did you not read the countless times I've stated that the circle of autism covers many people, in varying degrees, from the supremely intelligent to the seemingly tragic?

Did you not read the very words OF the 'seemingly tragic' that I took the trouble to post, to prove to others that inside the quite, speechless minds of a body and soul that apparently cannot communicate, (on *our* level) lies the also equally intelligent mind of young people who now ARE able to communicate, through computers and let people into 'their world' at long last?

Did you not read the many times I have stated that my son, brother and father have dyslexia? (had, in my father's case, as he has now passed on)

Did you not read the many times I have told you that my daughter's incredible artistic talent, which has been there from when she was born, goes hand in hand with SO many symptoms of autism that you'd not believe it!

Did you not read of the terrible struggles she had at school, my son also, when their deeply sensitive natures collided with the shite that is going on in so many schools?

Did you not read how my son was ridiculed, age 7, by his teacher for not being able to spell or write properly?

Did you not read when I spoke of dyspraxia, dyslexia and autism all sharing many, many symptoms?

Did you not read that it was a 'special' school that saved Ben's life? A school that was set up to help and teach and protect children with severe dyslexia and autistic problems?

Did you not see the many, many videos I have posted on here about autism and the *positive* hopeful, true stories that are now starting to happen?

Did you not know that I refuse to be negative about *any* autistic child, because, just as Annie Sullivan believed with Helen Keller, I believe there is a child like Carly inside every autistic child....and society needs to pour millions and billions of pounds, dollars into autism to help those children, their parents, their teachers and their families to do all that is now known about to help all children on the autism circle to lead as comfortable a life as they are able to do.

Did you not understand that I am on their side, because of how many people I know who are touched by this circle?

Or were you so damn bent on being your usual vicious, snidey, sarcastic self, hellbent on ONLY trying to prove to others what a total piece of shite I am?

Get out of this thread, Joan...you have no place in it, because this thread is NOT about your bloody insane personal problem with me.


Thank you...


And I hope, that somewhere in this thread, in the many links I've put in, in the many things other people have also spoken about, there has been much that some people reading this thread, but not contributing to it, may have found of some help.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

Old joke warning...

I went to the doctors with my flatulence problem. When he got me to drop my trousers and lie face down I was worried. When he started to put the rubber gloves on I started to sweat. He then got a long pole with a hook on it and I paniced.

"What are you going to do with that?" I screeched.

"Open the windows. It stinks in here..."

:D

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

Those of us on the flatulence circle really resent the fun you're making of our gift. If you would just accept us and stop opening windows....

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:23 AM

Dave, Thanks for posting that. I too have the gift of flatulence.

I have seen one specialist who said if I lost the gift she would be positively dleighted. But in fairness there have been others who have mentioned it.

They turned their nose up at me.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM

BTW - I have just updated my page...

"My wish for 2010 is that people will understand flatulence is not a disease; people with flatulence are not looking for a cure but for ACCEPTANCE....93% wont copy and paste this, will YOU make this your status for atl east one hour"

I wish people would just accept that flatulence is a gift. Most of the most gifted people in the world had flatulence. If we were to rid the world of flatulence just think what we would have lost. We need to wake up and smell the...

Oh, sorry, bad choice of phrase.

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:43 AM

I use the term 'Circle' simply because that is what I see in my head, Emma, not for any other reason.

Lizzie - when communicating on a forum like this, you confuse people by writing what you see in your head.

You may find this difficult to believe but what people see in their head is (generally speaking) not of interest to people here. That's because it is a discussion forum and like it or not it is considered necessary to abide by the rules, some of which are based on convention and are not written down.

This is why you get into such arguments with people. (It isn't just me, there have been loads of others as you well know). The difference between them and me is that they give up telling you that you are talking garbage - I don't.

This thread is a fine example. You call autism a circle and talk about your children being on it. Virtually everyone else in the world including most of the people you quote and the National Autism Society of Britain and its American equivalent, and all major medical authorities refer to it as a spectrum. You personally can refer to it as a square, circle, or a many-sided round spherical object but when discussing it with people it is best to use terms which everyone understands, not just you. As far as I can see virtually no-one on the internet describe autism as a gift apart from you. Yes, (to save you making links) one or two people do. But they are very few and far between.

In looking into the background to this I have come across many discussions between people who have lots of experience of autism, including those who are autistic.

Perhaps you could point to somewhere where your vast personal experience of autism has already been involved in discussions. After all a discussion board about autism would seem to be a more appropriate place for you, surely? And you would have been discussing it over the years wouldn't you? So there will be posts you have made on autism boards that have not been removed I would think. Would you be kind enough to point to some?

Like Joan I am sceptical of the diagnoses you have offered. Are you in fact looking in some symptoms and deciding personally that the person you are looking at is autistic?

Here are some recognised procedures that are used to diagnose autism. You must recognise these.

Tell us which ones you and the others have had.

Sits back and waits for personal abuse.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:37 AM

Of course autism and dyslexia are gifts. To someone who chooses to appropriate common words to describe other things anything is possible. A spectrum becomes a circle for instance and disagreement becomes victimisation. It is not new either - Remember when Winscale became Sellafied and radiation became magic moonbeams? It makes the probems go away.

Could have a go myself, please? People who post lengthy meaningles diatribes can be known as 'Lizzies' and 'Cornish' becomes synonymous with 'dubious'. See? Easy isn't it. Anyone else want to play this game?

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 07:20 PM

"My daughter is on the autistic circle somewhere, but it makes no difference to me at all"

"My daughter is on the circle, as is, I think, my son."

"I have two children on the circle,"

Lizzie, you still haven't told us whether your children have actually ever been diagnosed with autism - and I don't mean diagnosed by you, I mean diagnosed by a medical professional. Or whether you have decided to interpret their shyness/social awkwardness as autism, based on whatever lists of symptoms you've found on a website somewhere. Because if the latter is the case (and I strongly suspect it is), putting yourself into the same category with these parents who have to live with their childrens' profound disadvantages and disabilities on a daily basis, is quite the crassest, most insensitive load of attention-seeking shite you have ever spouted - and god knows that's going some. These parents know that their children may never grow up to lead normal lives, and live every day with the fear of what will happen to their children once they are gone. How DARE you compare your situation with theirs, or tell them how they ought to feel about this terrible syndrome that has, in many cases, severely limited their children's lives?

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:31 PM

No, indeed Autism is not a gift. If it is, I wish it was one which my 29 year old daughter had never been given. But we have been lucky, when she was younger, my wife fought hard for her. Firstly at that time Autism was not a recognised condition in the UK, so it took three years or more to get a diagnosis. Secondly we had to fight to get our Local Authority, recognised as a "good" one as far as Special Needs were concerned, to fund a place for her at a special residential school and when the time came for her to move to Adult Care, one of the helpers demanded that she be re-diagnosed! MP's came in very helpful at all these points - both Tory and Labour members showed themselves to be helpful and caring people. We have been lucky also in the help we have had both from schools and her current home, the latter is almost a part of our extended family.
BUT we have suffered. Our marriage, thank God, has survived, but we went through hell to get where we are today.
Autism touches each person differently, our daughter has no speech and is incapable of living independently, but others in a different part of the Spectrum/Circle are recognised genii who have difficulty in personal relationships. But we love them all the same because they are our children and we fight for them against the world - which I find in my reading of even the most "outrageous" contribution above, and I praise God for it. WE CARE FOR OUR KIDS!

Thank you for listening.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:06 PM

>>DYSLEXIA IS NOT A 'GIFT'

AUTISM IS NOT A 'GIFT'
<<

Couldn't agree more.

It worries me sick how my lovely daughter is going to cope when we are not around.

GIFT give me a break

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:00 PM

"Please desist in thinking you 'understand' me ..."


Cripes! Whatever made you think I understand you? ;0)


"Just one more time Lizzie, please try and get this into the pink fluffy clouds you see in your head

DYSLEXIA IS NOT A 'GIFT'

AUTISM IS NOT A 'GIFT'"


Each to their own.

I have two children on the circle, dear and very talented friends on the circle, relatives on the circle, and I know, only too well, that many of them have amazing gifts.

Half empty
Half full

The choice is yours.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

"Tell them to stick their heads where the sun don't shine and learn to be proud of who you are and what you do."

Thank you Lizzie but I will leave that kind of childish abusive retorts to you and your many examples of it; and, for your information, I am quite content with what I am, the very fulfilling career I have had and with my ability to think logically and creatively.

Please desist in thinking you 'understand' me as you claim to understand the people you use as your examples.

Now I've said that I don't wish to be drawn into totally pointless 'discussions' with you so please don't bother replying as in fact I have more self respect than to attempt to engage in any exchange with someone so impervious to facts or insultingly dismissive of others experiences and views.

Just one more time Lizzie, please try and get this into the pink fluffy clouds you see in your head

DYSLEXIA IS NOT A 'GIFT'

AUTISM IS NOT A 'GIFT'

I'm sure many people with Aspergers syndrome suffer from depression, many people without that diagnosis suffer from deep depression too and you're making me feel a bit depressed myself because I allowed myself to be provoked by your nonsense into joining in this thread.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

Emma, many who have autism, and I include Aspergers in that, suffer very deep depression.

Sorry, but I also know of many people on the autism circle who are deeply talented and gifted.

Having said that, I'll also say, yet again, the circle is wide and covers many people with many differing problems.

The young people I've linked to above, Carly and Tito, were, until very recently, totally unable to communicate. Now, they can....and computers, as I've said before, are now opening up the world for some people with autism, and I think this number will grow and grow as time progresses and those who are now able to communicate this way are able to explain more and more about how they feel, think etc...

Both Carly and Tito would, until very recently, have been 'written off' by many people as never ever being able to have any form of coherent thought, let alone intelligence...yet there it all is, in black and white, for the whole damn world to see...

Just as Helen Keller emerged from within her silent, closed off world, so are some children with autism, and that is a truly wonderful thing.

There are many positives here, amongst the negatives and the heartbreaks..and those two people have turned the heartbreak around, because now they can both comminucate with their families and those who love them so dearly now understand their 'language' and are able to learn it themselves. That has to be a good thing...even though we would all wish, and I doubt there is anyone here who wouldn't...all wish we could make everything OK for those who are on the very severe part of the autism circle.

Dyslexia is a gift, Emma.   You just need to let go of the stringent rules of language poured down on you by those who are obsessive about grammar. Tell them to stick their heads where the sun don't shine and learn to be proud of who you are and what you do.

I love it that my brain thinks as it does, even if others hate it. I really couldn't give a damn, because my brain makes me happy and I'd not change it for the world! :0)   

It's interesting to hear Dr. Temple Grandin, in the link below, saying that she's happy with her brain too....And why the hell shouldn't she be?   Having a brain that thinks and feels differntly is no big crime you know. It's just the way that person is....and the sooner we can all learn to realise that and to accept not only others, but ourselves, as who they and we are, the better this world will be.

The Sunshine Boy - Youtube

And yes, before everyone starts on at me, I know Helen Keller didn't have autism. Her world was even worse, black, silent, empty, but she too found her way out, for Annie Sullivan became Helen's 'computer' in a way....and computers will help autistic people, not all, I know, but they will help many in the years to come, as can be witnessed above.

I use the term 'Circle' simply because that is what I see in my head, Emma, not for any other reason.

And Wesley, I am not trying to advocate the suffering of autistic children, but the protection and acceptance of them, just as that video is trying to do, but we HAVE to deal with the bullying first, before they can all feel safe in our vast schools...and we have to ensure there is funding there for EVERY child on the autism circle to have a full time carer at school, until they reach an age or the situation where the children themselves feel ready to be on their own...and happy.

We are not dealing with this problem and therefore many chldren are suffering because of it.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM

Autism covers a big spectrum. I've read Dr. Grandin's book, "Thinking In Picutres", which I recommend. I believe she categorized herself, in the book, as autistic, but not deeply so. She is obviously very intelligent as well, and she participated in her own treatment and constructed her own treatment device. One doesn't 'recover' from autism. One reaches a modus vivendi, hopefully.
Some folks claim Asperger's Syndrome is a form of autism. And most such people can function successfully in the modern world. One person I heard about is a high functionary in the US government, but I'm not going to mention the person by name because I'm not sure they were 'officially' diagnosed. I think if we look at autistic people as a whole we'll find some who are easily accomodated in regular schools with some special support, and we can also find many who will not fit in at all or without significant support from, as we call it in the US, "Special Ed". But I think that on the Western side of the pond the main approach is to incorporate autistic students into the general school system.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM

Let's also consider syllogisms - a logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others

The classic example is -
If, ….All animals are mortal
and… All humans are animals.
we may safely conclude that…. All humans are mortal.

However it is a misconception and fallacy resulting from incorrect reasoning in argumentation to conclude (either willfully or in ignorance) that because -

……depression is a serious illness which can affect anybody and some people with an autistic spectrum disorder (just like any other person) may have a biological predisposition to depression and may become depressed because of the constant struggle to deal with the world around them.

…….Some well known comedians have been known to suffer from spells of depression

…….Well known comedians like Tony Hancock, Rowan Atkinson, Stephen Fry, Billy Connolly (who have suffered from depression) are therefore 'on The Circle' of autism

I'm sure that Stephen Fry, who has actually been involved in some interesting learning aides for autistic children cartoons to aid autistic children   would be fascinated by your deductive 'reasoning' processes and diagnosis Lizzie.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

It was the boastful nursery book character in Lewis Carroll's looking glass world, where everything is backwards about, that said

"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less"

So let's look at the meaning of some words in Lizzieworld

Actually the term 'Autistic circle' was published in a letter to the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders back in 1982.
However, it very explicitly refers to observations of a group of very young children presenting 'typically autistic' behaviour who would only take those objects of interest/stimulation within a specific circumference or circle.

The Magic Circle is a well known organization of professional magicians that can be found on the internet and elsewhere while, for the terminally bored, you can also find magic circles on Facebook
instructions a href="http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/facebook-trick-tutorial-magic-circles/3478202407">here


Of course Lizzie is free, like the scornful and inevitably cracked, Dumpty, to call anything whatever she wants however nonsensical or misleading her choice of alternative resulting in ineffective communication and understanding.

So why is the term 'autism SPECTRUM' the one used by the W.H.O. the National Autistic society and all professionals in the field of medicine, research, education etc in the English speaking world?

The term implies, by definition, a 'broad sequence or range' that is to say, there is not a unitary disorder but rather a SYNDROME that can range from relatively severe to relatively mild and non clinical psychological conditions characterized by widespread abnormalities of social interactions and communication, as well as severely restricted interests and highly repetitive behaviour.

Since the late 1970s it has been recognized that autism exists on a continuum affecting people in many different ways and to varying degrees.

Although Asperger syndrome is included as part of the 'autism spectrum'. the main difference between the two is thought to be in language development: people with Asperger syndrome, typically, will not have had delayed language development when younger.

They do not usually have the accompanying learning disabilities associated with autism, although they MAY have specific learning difficulties which may (or may not!) include dyslexia and dysphasia

People with Asperger syndrome can be of above average intelligence but nevertheless have difficulty sustaining friendships and social relationships and to quote the National autistic society …….
can be imaginative in the conventional use of the word, for example many are accomplished writers, artists and musicians, but can have difficulty with social imagination.

Like Mrs Duck I don't really want to get involved in any of Lizzie's confused campaigns but, like Wesley, I'd hate for anyone who stumbles across Lizzie's opinions to have them mistaken for factual and useful information.

I do believe in 'kindness and understanding' Lizzie but I don't believe it is a 'kindness' in any sense to describe autism or dyslexia as a 'gift' having found the latter a burden for that period of my life before keyboards and spell checkers.

As for 'understanding' I can only echo Mrs Duck that a little knowledge is a potentially dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 09:17 PM

So if bullies are the problem why make the other kids pay for it?

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 07:28 PM

Tito Mukhopadhyay - Poet

Soma, Tito's mother being interviewed on 'Autism Podcast' about her Rapid Prompting Method

Soma's site HALO 'Helping Autism through Learning and Outreach'

The HALO Effect - series of videos

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:53 PM

Wesley, I KNOW it's the bullies. I've never said it was the autistic children. That's the whole point.   :0) x

I am on their side, not the bullies.

I am on your side.

But 'Houston, we have a problem' over here in the UK in so many of our schools, and I'd imagine that is why The National Autistic Society is highlighting this very problem.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM

yes you are right bozolegs. I meant for other kids interaction thats all

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM

100

I couldn't resist. It's my OCD acting out.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM

every school I know has at least 2 or 3 autistic kids in the class and it is getting worse.

It shouldn't make any difference now we have differentiation, individual learning plans etc.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:48 PM

well I typed out a long post only to see it disappear again so I won't type out another. What I said in the post was ... Schools right now take bullying very serious. Children doing such face serious discipline measure. bullying outside of school can be reported to the school in this country. There is a zero tolerance.

Also there is far less bullying anymore ... every school I know has at least 2 or 3 autistic kids in the class and it is getting worse. I can only speak for the small town school I know and it maybe different in large cities where funding is such a problem but the state education laws are pretty clear on a zero tolerance for bullies ... biggest issue to me is the lack of compassion on the adult side. Most kids learn to accept difference pretty quickly ... Adults still look at a child acting up and say I would tan their backside ... awareness is so important I think.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

Lizzie - I have seen the video. And as I see it the problem is not autism at all - it's bullies. If you remove autistic children from that environment the bullies are just going to move on to some other target. My guess is that they are "sharing the wealth" anyway.

Monitor the bullies and change their behavior. Problem solved. And if they refuse to behave cart THEM off to a seperate school.NOT the autistic kids. Makes more sense to me.

Leaving autistic kids in mainstream school educates two groups. Normal kids get to experience autistics and the other way around. You don't have a problem with that do you?

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

"I should know better than to try to have a reasonable discussion with LC."

Sorry, Mary, but where exactly have I been unreasonable to you?

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

"And I keep reading stories from you about violent autistic kids."

No, you don't, actually.   

I have mentioned two incidences where that happened, and stated how fear can turn to anger very fast in a fearful situation. I have stated far more often that the so called 'normal' kids are the ones who are violent and bullying, which to me, is far from 'normal' as my children are quiet and sensitive.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:13 PM

In other words, Wesley, pleaswe don't point out contradictions, misinformation, skewed information, etc or you'll get an FU> (see above). That apparently is notrude or insulting.
I should know better than to try to have a reasonable discussion with LC.
Bye.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:08 PM

Well, Wesley, if you can provide a mainstream school where they are safe, understood and taken care of the whole time they're there, then I have NO problem with that at all.

Sadly, that ain't happening in so many places.

Please tell me this though, why don't you comment on the National Autistic Society's own video, where they highlight these very problems I'm telling you DO happen? I can't figure that one out at all. The society has far more experience than many of us on this thread, because they hear so many stories...and the bullying by other children in mainstream schools is what they have chosen to highlight.

Why do you think they've done that?
Why do you think the young people who had it happen to them have chosen to speak out?

WHY don't you comment on that?

Most of the violence is against autistic children, not the other way round. However, I have known personal experiences where the autistic child or young person themselves have lashed out, often in response to some horrible remark, or relentless bullying, and I've written of that above. I have also stated, over and over, that all the autistic people I know are the kindest, gentlest people...but they all share The Fear...and I still feel that to put many of those children into a situation where that fear grows even bigger, can be the wrong thing to do.

As Dan states above, if it works, it works well...but one size does not suit all.

If your child is happy in mainstream school, excellent, there is nothing to worry about. But if they are not....and I have given you examples, as does the National Autistic Society video I posted, then you need to think of another way forward.   Kimmy had no option, the choice was made for her by her son, basically. He either ended his life, or she reached out to help him in a way she never thought she'd have to. Luckily, she chose the latter.

I'm not sure why you choose to ignore the things I'm saying, preferring to twist them around and put them in a bad light, but that is your freedom to do so, I guess.

And also, I would not be rude about the way you write, so please, could you refrain from insulting the way I do. Thanks.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:45 AM

"Children with autism should not be in mainstream schools."

"I have NO problem with autistic children going to mainstream schools."

Two VERY different statements from you in the same thread. Please explain your view Lizzie in a post slightly shorter than "Moby Dick" - because the sheer volume and quantity of your posts doesn't make you right.

And I keep reading stories from you about violent autistic kids. That has not been my experience at all from any of the autistic kids my son had been in school or daycare with. So I've very doubtful of these experiences of yours. Unless it's a British thing. That stuff just isn't happening in the USA. In my experience.

Early on it daycare there were some biting episodes but they were no more common than with the normal kids of the same age. And I know that my son has pushed some kids away when they got in his face but that was only a handful of times when he was much younger. Now he simply walks away. He's never struck anyone.

Maybe he has something to teach me about trying to reason with you. I'd be much smarter if I just walked away. But I'd hate for any of these silent Mudcat readers you mention to think that your opinion is the only one out there.