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BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:38 PM fungal demagoguery -- the virulent rhetoric used by people in the dark to lead other mushrooms.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Greg F. Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:51 AM Naw, 'tain't mine, tho I wish I COULD claim it. Might be Jim Hightower's- picked it up a while back but can't recall where. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: frogprince Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:20 AM "fundageical" Did you just coin that, Greg F, or have I missed something that's been around for awhile? How about "fungusmentalism"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Greg F. Date: 16 Nov 06 - 10:25 AM Speaking of Carl, his The Demon Haunted World is pertinent to the discussion of fundageical idiocy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:22 PM Carl Sagan opened one of his lectures (collected in the posthumous book, "The Varieties of Scientific Experience") with a deathless quote from Plutarch: A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:55 PM For Evangelicals, Supporting Israel Is 'God's Foreign Policy' By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK Published: November 14, 2006 (New York Times) WASHINGTON, Nov. 13 — As Israeli bombs fell on Lebanon for a second week last July, the Rev. John Hagee of San Antonio arrived in Washington with 3,500 evangelicals for the first annual conference of his newly founded organization, Christians United For Israel. International Fellowship of Christians and Jews When a Christian-Jewish group ran this ad during the Lebanon war, evangelicals responded en masse to support Israel, an official said. He called the conflict "a battle between good and evil" and said support for Israel was "God's foreign policy." The next day he took the same message to the White House. Many conservative Christians say they believe that the president's support for Israel fulfills a biblical injunction to protect the Jewish state, which some of them think will play a pivotal role in the second coming. Many on the left, in turn, fear that such theology may influence decisions the administration makes toward Israel and the Middle East. Administration officials say that the meeting with Mr. Hagee was a courtesy for a political ally and that evangelical theology has no effect on policy making. But the alliance of Israel, its evangelical Christian supporters and President Bush has never been closer or more potent. In the wake of the summer war in southern Lebanon, reports that Hezbollah's sponsor, Iran, may be pushing for nuclear weapons have galvanized conservative Christian support for Israel into a political force that will be hard to ignore. (...) A |
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Subject: The Greatest Crime From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:08 PM Possibly the greatest crime yet considered by our furless leaders is the corruption of the rule of law which has been embodied since the days of the Magna Carta in the principle of habeas corpus -- the prohibition against causing people to disappear without trial. Here is the story of one lawyer whose life is dedicated to the protection of that principle and who is reasonably concerned that this underpinning of all "rule under law" may be about to be unpinned. http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/09/26/habeas/index_np.html A I am closing this thread due to 27 of the last 28 posts being spam. We can re-open it at a later date. Mudelf |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:04 AM Edit? Did Freud wear a slip? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Donuel Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:04 AM Damn The Gospel of HAT? What the hell is the Gospel of HAT? Honest to GOD Would it really be impossible to allow people to edit a word here |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Donuel Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM Follow up I spoke with the neighbor across the street who said American families are being attacked by homosexuals and that tolerence toward people who "club our children to death" sic. is the real enemy. His son told me his new CD was available for $10 o when I had the cash I brought it over to his house. The father answered the door and went to get a CD. He invited me in and told me to stay in the vestibule. He returned with the CD and put his hand on the front door, barring any exit. He said "is there anything you want to say to me?" I told him I that he made me sad that he had adopted the gospel of hat. He said he had written proof I should read regarding tha savageing of America by gays. I said I really am not a spokesperson for the gay community and do not like being put in a defensive position. I went on to say that it seems to me that gays are part of and will always be part of our society's body much like our toenail. For a person to hate part of their own body does not make much sense. You may want to trim the toenail as to not rip your socks but it would be foolish and dangerous not to mention painful to rip out your own toenail. He reminded me of the proof I could read and said lots of things to stir people up aren;t true like the story that our kindegardeners were get oral sex lessons in textbooks at school. It alluded to real proof of his family being attacked would be an account of an attack on his family. He took his hand and weight off the front door and opened it saying " I'm just opening the door and not saying you must leave" I just left and reminded him to tell his son I bought his CD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: katlaughing Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:14 PM He must've gotten his persuasive abilities from his Uncle Charley.:-) I tried to tune in, but there must've been a lot of traffic. Even with broadband it kept buffering, so I missed a lot and finally shut it down. I hope they will archive it. What I did hear was good. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:11 PM Go, Michelle! Well, I'm especially proud of her for her brains and courage, and proud of my nephew Matt who convinced her to marry him. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: katlaughing Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:35 AM "Michelle Goldberg, the author of the must-read "Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism", is a veteran reporter and expert on the religious right. She will be debating Phil Burress an outspoken leader of the religious right's assault on gay and lesbian Americans, especially in Ohio. Earlier this month, James Dobson's Focus on the Family announced they have partnered with Burress and Ohio Citizens for Community Values in their most recent campaign to "educate voters" in eight key states, including Ohio." Goldberg is a DefCon (Defend the Constitution) advisory board member. Her opponent is the president of the religious right organization Ohio Citizens for Community Values. The debate will be broadcast live from Xavier University in Cincinnati, Ohio. You may register here to listen to it at 7pm Mudcat time: http://events.streamlogics.net/donordigital/aug29-06/index.asp I applaud Michelle on her courage and the brains to back it up. This should be very good and I am grateful there are young people like her who are making a difference. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Don Firth Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM Well and graphically put, GUEST. You can see this sort of thing in action in the way the Bush administration uses "diplomacy" in dealing with North Korea and Iran. The Bush administration tells them, "Do what we want you to do and then we'll be willing to negotiate with you." To which, of course, North Korea and Iran respond, quite reasonably, "If we have to do what you want us to do before you'll negotiate, then what's the point of negotiating? Get stuffed!!" The Bush League doesn't want to govern, it wants to rule. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:14 AM I've had to endure Karl Rove's style of negotiating since GWBush was installed as Governor here in TX. In brief, you want a clean table. Bush throws a turd on the table then sits down to negotiate. You finally compromise and he takes away half the turd. And all you wanted was a clean table. That's it in a nutshell. That's how the Bush crime family negotiates. And I mention this because I heard a JAG officer interviewed a couple of days ago. He testified "against" the Bush administration's desire to hold people forever without counsel, etc. But this colonel's half-a-turd compromise was the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Court martialling of American citizens. So we have this English common-law justice system of juries and habeas corpus running back to the Magna Carta which is working just fine on one hand, and a group of ghouls who say they want to arrest you for any misdemeanor, try you in secret and execute you in secret. Then this JAG off. says Let's just use the military system. He was the half-a-turd man in this scenario. Don't accept any form of justice other than the one outlined in the Constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM Deathless Freudianism, at your service, sir!! LOL A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Charley Noble Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM Amos- LOL "I have always felt that awareness carries responsibility with it, even if I haven't really loved up to it always." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM The porposal by the Bush administration to make coercion and star-court mangling of due process legal has raised ire amongst those who Blog on such things. Some summaries: "Bloggers roundly excoriate the Bush administration for its proposed military tribunal system. They've also got mixed feelings about yet another death knell for conservatism, and about a new study that proves the way to a man's heart is indeed through his stomach. Hamdan overdrive: In response to the Supreme Court's Hamdan v. Rumsfeld decision, the Bush administration has offered a replacement system for trying terror suspects. The defense secretey would have authority to add crimes at his discretion that fall under the purview of proposed military "commissions," which await approval by Congress. Defendants would be deprived of a speedy trial, the opportunity to face their accusers, an injunction against hearsay evidence against them, and immunity from "coercive interrogations." Bloggers aren't happy. Ronald Bailey at libertarian Reason magazine's Hit and Run sees the administration as a naughty child that has taken its lumps only to run back for more: "Is the Bush Administration taking a cue from how the People's Republic of China conducts secret national security trials? The two Congressional committees hearing testimony today on this scandalously un-American proposal should hold Administration officials in contempt of Congress for violating their oaths to defend the Constitution and toss them in jail." At Prague Twin, Mike, an American living in the Czech Republic, wants to see the legislative branch scandalized by its submission to this new brand of martial justice: "[A]lthough the [Supreme Court] has already ruled that an almost identical tribunal as the one proposed is unlawful, they left the door open for Congress to approve a tribunal. They made it pretty clear that if the executive submits a plan to Congress, and Congress appoves that plan, the court will not interfere." At Zaphod's Head, peacenik Glyn Evans of Alberta, Canada, is frightened by the administration's new plan: "I am not sure which is scarier. The ability of the Secretary of Defense to add crimes at will to the list or the lack of rights the detained people no longer get. Is this Justice? Or perhaps is this a sign of even more things to come? Military lawyers complained that the new draft doesn't have enough 'due process rights' for prisoners and it could 'further tarnish America's image'. Well no shit Sherlock." Equally appalled is the progressive military-affairs aficionado Jason Sigger at The Armchair Generalist: "This White House would rather play its hand for a set of Orwellian criminal procedures than take the chance that processing the Gitmo detainees might result in some of them being found not guilty and freed by current procedures. Maybe the Bush strategy is to delay longer until they can stack the federal courts with more conservative judges (a la Alito and Roberts) that favor these kind of tactics."" From Slate. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:20 PM What a perversion. I have always felt that awareness carries responsibility with it, even if I haven't really loved up to it always. But to twist that truism into "intelligence imposes an obligation to subdue others" is really perverse. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 06 - 01:51 PM But Leo Strauss was known as a leftist. A Trotskyite. Bush's advisors ARE disciples of Strauss, though, which should explain why Bush has tripled the size of the Federal govt. He was supposed to be a small-govt, states-rights conservative, but he has now spent more money on govt than all other presidents before him combined. Socializing American Society. So, the "radical right" is really the "radical left." That's why a lot of us have come to realize we're being played by the "two-party system." There are no two parties. Just one, and they swing the White House and congress back and forth like a snake charmer, keeping us mesmerized with our imagined "power of the ballot box." What crap. Strauss and his mentor didn't really have left/right politics. They used them as an ends to a means, but they really believed in elitism. The DUTY and RIGHT of some people to rule. Friedrich Nietzche's "superman" thinking. Strauss believed some people had an obligation to use their superior intellects to subjugate those around them. For the good of society and the species. And if they couldn't rule, then they owed it to society to destroy it. Hitler subscribed to the same philosophy. The people running Israel and Washington right now subscribe to it. Hitler's Master Race thinking leveling Beirut right now. Who'd've thunk it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:36 AM Conservatives Without Conscience (John Dean) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:00 AM To understand the political philosophy behind this "Dominionist" activity, it's necessary to look into Leo Strauss and his model for the "New American Century". He was from University of Chicago and his views are held by Wolfowitz, Perle, Rove and others who represent the extreme Radical Right in this country. His views are Machievellian and involve consolidation of the Religious Right as a propaganda tool to furthur the aims of the Radical Right. The key component to this kind of Christianity is embodied in Authoritarianism. For furthur elucidation, check out John Dean's new book. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM A minor facet of the belief of some of those who believe that the rapture is at hand (once again and again and again) is that since the US did not exist when the "prophesies" were made, in addition to restoring Israel to glory the United States must cease to exist. This seems to be rather counter to the opinion of others that George is the saviour who will bring Israel back; but I have heard local ministers on my TV make "favorable reference" to the concept, without of course actually saying their "flocks" should believe it. I suppose all those other nations who've popped up since the days of prophecy should also be fearful of these same ... (descriptive noun omitted - plural). John |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM http://peacejournalism.com/ReadArticle.asp?ArticleID=10037 ...Petition on Impeachment Not Quietly Going Away By: Rebecca Ransom 08/03/2006 Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly WASHINGTON-A group of activists is going back to the Board of Selectmen this month to re-petition for a special town meeting on adopting a resolution calling for the impeachment of President George W. Bush. Members of the informal group are currently in the process of collecting signatures on a second petition seeking a session that could put the town on record as the first municipality in the state asking that the appropriate elected officials begin an impeachment process. In June, selectmen denied the petitioners' request 2 to 1 on the grounds that the meeting being sought would be "improper," largely because municipalities have no formal role in national issues. Republican Mark Lyon and Democrat Nicholas Solley voted against the request. Democratic First Selectman Dick Sears was in favor of allowing the town meeting. "We will give [the Board of Selectmen] reasons why this is proper ... why this is important for the town," said petitioner Ken Cornet. In seeking the meeting, the petitioners claim the president should be impeached on the grounds that he has "subverted the Constitution," illegally spied on American civilians, "conspired to commit the torture of prisoners" and "formally declared his intent to violate the laws enacted by Congress by appending a signing statement to legislation that asserts his right to carve out exceptions to legislation as he sees fit." In challenging the selectmen's reasons for denying the first petition, Mr. Cornet noted that in the 1980s many towns across the country, including Washington, passed resolutions declaring the municipalities "nuclear free zones." "There have already been resolutions on national events. It has already happened. It is already precedent," he said. At a meeting in July, Mr. Sears suggested a compromise to the petitioners and officials-to call a special Board of Selectmen meeting instead of a town meeting. At that session, Mr. Sears said, the audience could debate the topic and vote on "a motion that the citizens present at the meeting endorse the goals in the petition presented." Mr. Sears said he borrowed this model from the towns of Cornwall and Salisbury, which held similar meetings to debate the war in Iraq. According to Mr. Cornet, the group is choosing not to pursue that option at this time. "The whole point is that we want it to be official. Otherwise, if we just have a discussion, those who don't care won't come out and it's my personal feeling that people have to get involved in what's going on. ... . The last few weeks are evidence that we cannot just let politicians go off and do what they want," he said, referring to the violence in Israel and Lebanon../... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM "Time proved Riley wrong, and the WFCA's obsession with the evolution eventually doomed the organization. In 1927, despite a furious effort by Riley and his followers, the legislature of his home state of Minnesota rejected a bill to ban the teaching of evolution by an eight-to-one margin. The blow devastated Riley and "signaled the end of William Bell Riley's efforts to secure anti-evolution legislation." (EL, 230) By 1928, Riley became a fringe figure within his own denomination. In early 1930s, he preached a virulent form of anti-Semitism and became a fascist sympathizer. World War II finally softened his anti-Semitism. In his last years, Riley persuaded evangelist Billy Graham to replace him as head of three educational institutions—a seminary, a Bible institute, and a college—he had established in Minneapolis. (PC, 68-71) Graham, in his ministry, chose to ignore the Scopes trial. (EL, 261)" End of an interesting article here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM A new twist: the government seeks the desire to define crimes at wil in military tribunals against POWS: "From the Washington Post -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101334.html?nav=hcmodule White House Proposal Would Expand Authority of Military Courts By R. Jeffrey Smith A draft Bush administration plan for special military courts seeks to expand the reach and authority of such "commissions" to include trials, for the first time, of people who are not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban and are not directly involved in acts of international terrorism, according to officials familiar with the proposal. The plan, which would replace a military trial system ruled illegal by the Supreme Court in June, would also allow the secretary of defense to add crimes at will to those under the military court's jurisdiction. The two provisions would be likely to put more individuals than previously expected before military juries, officials and independent experts said. The draft proposed legislation, set to be discussed at two Senate hearings today, is controversial inside and outside the administration because defendants would be denied many protections guaranteed by the civilian and traditional military criminal justice systems. ..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM Dear Gawd, that is truly awful stuff, Don. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Don Firth Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:53 PM As I said, in a post above. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM A federal prosecutor may inspect the telephone records of two New York Times reporters in an effort to identify their confidential sources, a federal appeals court in New York ruled yesterday. The 2-to-1 decision, from a court historically sympathetic to claims that journalists should be entitled to protect their sources, reversed a lower court and dealt a further setback to news organizations, which have lately been on a losing streak in the federal courts. The dissenting judge said that the government had failed to demonstrate it truly needed the records and that efforts to obtain reporters' phone records could alter the way news gathering was conducted. The case arose from a Chicago grand jury's investigation into who told the two reporters, Judith Miller and Philip Shenon, about actions the government was planning to take against two Islamic charities, Holy Land Foundation in Texas and Global Relief Foundation in Illinois. Though the government contended that calls from the reporters tipped off the charities to impending raids and asset seizures, the investigation appears to be focused on identifying the reporters' sources. No testimony has been sought from the reporters, and there has been no indication that their actions are a subject of the investigation. "No grand jury can make an informed decision to pursue the investigation further, much less to indict or not indict, without the reporters' evidence," Judge Ralph K. Winter Jr. wrote for majority, in an opinion joined by Judge Amalya Lyle Kearse. "We see no danger to a free press in so holding. Learning of imminent law enforcement asset freezes/searches and informing targets of them is not an activity essential, or even common, to journalism." Thus, the NY Times. The failure of the court to see danger to a free press in offering up the phone records of reporters to the federal prosecution machine is, to me, not only dismaying but cruelly disingenuous. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: frogprince Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:23 PM RE the point of humanism given by Amos: The fourth and the sixth, at least, are at loggerheads with fundamentalism. To the fundamentalist, all truth, and all valid solutions to human problems, are found in scripture (of whatever persuasion) and to condone any modification of that is heresy. There is actually nothing there that says that anyone has to discard all the tenets of his "faith" out of hand; it justs asks that he be willing to subject them to "the light of day". |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:20 AM Here's a re-cap of the major principles of Secular Humanism, Guest. Which of them do you think are bad principles? (from WIkipedia) Secular humanism describes a world view with the following elements and principles:[4] Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith. Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions. Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general. Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it. This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us. Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility. Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:17 AM Your post is bass-ackwards, Guest. Suing groups for being intolerant is perfectly consistent with preaching tolerance. There is nothing about the prnciple of human tolerance that says it has to be self-immolating or embrace hatreful intolerance. Secular humanism is a straw bogeyman, or a paper tiger. It seems clear from your post that you do not understand what it is, and do not care to examine its merits or alternatives. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM There is a name for a system of government that wages aggressive war, deceives its citizens, violates their rights, abuses power and breaks the law, rejects judicial and legislative checks on itself, claims power without limit, tortures prisoners and acts in secret. It is dictatorship." --The Nation, 12/22/05 America is at one of those "tipping points" that we always hearing about. The November elections may well decide whether we are going to live under the rule of law, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers and expressed in our Constitution; or be subject to the whims of a dictator. It is up to us. • "The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite." --Thomas Jefferson |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Greg F. Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:36 AM Hello ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:30 AM Secular Humanism. The United Nations "religion." Secular Humanists preach tolerance, then sue religious groups for intolerance. A ten-year old should be able to see the hypocrisy in that. The United Nations made up a religion, and this new religion is intolerant. Yet a lot of people seem to believe it's the embodiment of tolerance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM As we approach the 5th anniversary of the September 11th attack, we might mull over the words of two leading members of the Christian nationalist movement (9/13, 700 Club television show) as Jerry Falwell explained the attack: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" "Well," Pat Robertson replied, "I totally concur." Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:46 PM From the New York Times, an interesting tale of a pastor with more guts: MAPLEWOOD, Minn. — Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing — and the church's — to conservative political candidates and causes. The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute "voters' guides" that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn't the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary? After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called "The Cross and the Sword" in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a "Christian nation" and stop glorifying American military campaigns. "When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses," Mr. Boyd preached. "When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross." Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God's ideal. The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul — packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals — was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members. But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share. "Most of my friends are believers," said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, "and they think if you're a believer, you'll vote for Bush. And it's scary to go against that." Sermons like Mr. Boyd's are hardly typical in today's evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq. At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written "Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America — an Evangelical's Lament." And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, "The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church," which is based on his sermons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:12 PM Eddie, you're devious! I hadn't thought of that, but if I had, I probably could have got the guy out of my hair a lot sooner. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM For an interesting view of multiple personalities with multiple personalities exchanging and comparing psychoses, here is a page from the Toledo Blade discussing "End Times" studies going on. Rapture me up, Scotty! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST,CrazyEddie Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:02 AM "Incidentally, he moved away because he saw two guys walking down the street holding hands, and concluded that there are too many gays living in this area of the city." So, Don, how much beer did you have to buy your two pals to put on that hand-holding act, & get the guy to move? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM I really have no idea what GWB believes in other than assuming as much power as he can usurp from Congress and the Courts into his own hands as President. Even the American Bar Association is now taking him to task for violating the Constitutional separation of powers by his actions. The Christian Nationalists who give me the creeps are Judge Roy Moore, Rick Scarborough, D. James Kennedy, and John Eidsmoe, all who have been shaped by dominion theology which asserts that, in preparation for the second coming of Christ, godly men have the responsibility to take over every aspect of society. They are very earnest men. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Don Firth Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM Apparently GUEST here doesn't fully understand the nature of Christian fundamentalism. The vast majority of Christian fundamentalists, perhaps all, are Millennialists, believing in the second coming of Christ. According to the agenda that comes with this belief, the Nation of Israel must be reestablished and all Jews returned to their natural homeland. There will be great warfare and strife as this happens (they look at current events and say "See? The End Times are near!"). Then somewhere along the line "The Rapture" will take place. Born-again Christians, and only born-again Christians will be beamed up to Heaven, the Antichrist will appear, and the world will go to Hell in a hand basket. There will be wars and rumors of wars, plagues and pestilence, earthquakes and other natural disasters, and the moon will turn the color of blood—all in all, not what you could call "a fun party." When things can't possibly get worse, Christ will appear. Now this won't be the Jesus we know as the gentle teacher who preached peace and unconditional love. This aspect of the Godhead will be more like Saint Michael with a Flaming Sword (who will probably be there, too), and the Battle of Armageddon will then take place: Christ versus At this point, the Jews in the recently established Nation of Israel will be give an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior—those who do will become Christians and be saved, and those who do not will be consigned to Hell—and from that point on, the Millennium will begin. That will be the promised Kingdom of God: 1,000 years of Peace under the rule of Christ. Now they don't go so far as to say what will happen at the end of those thousand years, which, in geological time is not that long, but then even Isaac Asimov's "Foundation Trilogy" only covered about that much time. None of this glorious picture of the future can take place until the Nation of Israel is solidly established. The sooner this happens, they believe, the sooner Christ will return. This is why the vast majority of fundamentalist Christians, instead of reviling Jews as "Christ-killers" and all that rot, work like little beavers to support the establishment of the Nation of Israel. And this, GUEST, explains quite a bit of the Bush administration's foreign policy. Now, this is how it was explained to me by the vociferous fellow who used to live in one of the apartments upstairs and who made periodic efforts to save my soul. But—I know a lot of other Christians who, when they hear someone like him, just shake their heads. The Kingdom of God, they maintain, is to be found, not in the outside world, but in your own heart. And Jesus was all about love and forgiveness, not about retribution. My former neighbor says they are all going to Hell, too. Incidentally, he moved away because he saw two guys walking down the street holding hands, and concluded that there are too many gays living in this area of the city. He didn't smile much. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM Well, like many extreme Christians, Bush has a personal delusory hotline with the Almighty; like many extremist Christians he believes he has a firm grip on "high" moral principles which are sound enough to justify dictating them to other people, based on a poor understanding of the New Testament sprinkled with some distinctly Old Testament biases. There are several other similarities between Bush and extreme Chrstian practices de facto, although I agree none of them qualify as "Christian" in the sense of "following the teachings of Christ". A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM Islamic fascism. As practiced where? I've heard Rush Limbaugh froth about Islamic fascism, but I don't think he's ever mentioned a particular country. I know there's been a serious problem in the Sudan for the last few years...Muslims killing Christians...and if GWBush and gang were really Christian, that's where they'd be right now. Right? They'd be stopping the slaughter of Christians. But the Bush gang isn't in the Sudan. They've put American troops in harm's way because Israel wants to eradicate its neighbors. How 'bout that photo a couple days ago of school kids in Israel taking a field trip to a military facility and signing their names on howitzer shells. What loving people. Gonna shell Lebanese kids...from Israel to its Lebanese neighbors, in the hopes that they can soon co-exist peacefully. What a crock. And if GW and his gang were such fundamentalists, how come Israel even exists today? I mean, fundamentalists are stereotyped as stumbling around, muttering in tongues and saying "the Jews killed Jesus" during their coherent moments, so if Bush is so fundamentally Christian, why doesn't he nuke Israel? The country meets all his criteria of "terrorist state" and "rogue nation," and the fundamentalists say the Jews killed Jesus, so why is Israel still on the map? Something doesn't add up here. Bush isn't a Christian. Some of his so-called Christian appointees are pro-zionist because they think Jesus will rule from Jerusalem when He returns, so we gotta secure Jerusalem. And some of the fundamantalists believe America's not mentioned in Revelations in the "end times," therefore America has to be destroyed before Scripture can be fulfilled. Odd thinking, admittedly, but then Jews and Muslims have some quirky beliefs too. But to ascribe any Christian attribute to Bush at all is absurd. Can't argue with the fascism, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:19 PM You know if this thread were refocused on "Christian Nationalism" in this country we all might learn something. And I grant that it is a serious subject. Or we could continue baiting one another or engaging in entertainment: "Oh, that poor little lion hasn't got a Christian!" What famous movie does that quote relate to? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:19 PM From Forbes: A powerful Republican committee chairman who has led the fight against President Bush's signing statements said Monday he would have a bill ready by the end of the week allowing Congress to sue him in federal court. "We will submit legislation to the United States Senate which will...authorize the Congress to undertake judicial review of those signing statements with the view to having the president's acts declared unconstitutional," Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said on the Senate floor. Specter's announcement came the same day that an American Bar Association task force concluded that by attaching conditions to legislation, the president has sidestepped his constitutional duty to either sign a bill, veto it, or take no action. Bush has issued at least 750 signing statements during his presidency, reserving the right to revise, interpret or disregard laws on national security and constitutional grounds. "That non-veto hamstrings Congress because Congress cannot respond to a signing statement," said ABA president Michael Greco. The practice, he added "is harming the separation of powers." Bush has challenged about 750 statutes passed by Congress, according to numbers compiled by Specter's committee. The ABA estimated Bush has issued signing statements on more than 800 statutes, more than all other presidents combined. Signing statements have been used by presidents, typically for such purposes as instructing agencies how to execute new laws. But many of Bush's signing statements serve notice that he believes parts of bills he is signing are unconstitutional or might violate national security. Still, the White House said signing statements are not intended to allow the administration to ignore the law. "A great many of those signing statements may have little statements about questions about constitutionality," said White House spokesman Tony Snow. "It never says, 'We're not going to enact the law.'" Specter's announcement intensifies his challenge of the administration's use of executive power on a number of policy matters. Of particular interest to him are two signing statements challenging the provisions of the USA Patriot Act renewal, which he wrote, and legislation banning the use of torture on detainees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM The contrast is between the founding spirit of the place and its current unfortunate misadverntures; it is incidental, in some ways, that the "base" is reactionary Christian to a large percentage. Muslim nations have never stepped up to serve as models for liberty, or the inalienable rights of human beings, nor has Israel. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM And what's up with Islamic fascism? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:59 PM So if the "fascism" in America is being blamed on Christians, is the fascism in Israel being blamed on Jews? I catch a little TV every once in a while and of course Israel's being portrayed as long-suffering and put-upon, but aren't they murdering civilians in Lebanon right now? And isn't Israel a "Jewish state?" So what's up with the rise of Jewish fascism? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism.. From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM Review, if you will, the Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism and compare them to the ideals defined by the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. COnstitution, and the Bill of Rights. I believe you will find that certain aspects of American political life at present have slipped tragically toward the former from the latter. Just go down the list and see if you can spot any such instances. A healthy exercise for any free-thinking human. A |