BS: smoking in uk pubs

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: *Laura*
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:17 PM

Well I work in a pub... and I hate it when I'm working and it's really smoky cos I can't get away.... but I don't mind smoking in pubs and clubs when I'm out....

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

An example of selfishness and stupidty

The other day, I saw a neighbour leave in his people car smoking. His three young children were in the car.

Another

Talking to receptionist at the bowling alley in Lincoln about when they would be changing. She said it couldn't be soon enough. She gave me a flyer showing how they would deal with it by July in stages.
We got to talking further about smoking. She said she was out with her 10 mates the night before and they all smoked. They were at a pub where one room was smoking and the other was no smoking. They weren't bothered about her, so she had no choice but join them in the smoking room, otherwise she would have been sitiing on her own.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: dagenham doc
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:32 PM

Here in New Zealand smoking in ANY public place has been banned for ages. There was a huge cry with all the protests echoed here…………… heard it all before. Now it has settled down and all is back to normal. In the pub sessions when smokers want to smoke they just step outside. The remarkable thing is the amount of people who talk to one another now whilst they have their ciggy and who used to be strangers. A new culture of "smirting" (smoking and flirting) has emerged. Oddly enough prostitution has been legalised but if they want to smoke they have to go back down on the street.!!

Doc

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

I do smoke the occasional cigar, and go outside the pub to do it whatever the weather. Why should other people have to put up with my filthy habit? I am not interested in making my friends clothes stink and wafting smoke across them.

As for restaurants, the ban can't come soon enough - it's horrible eating whilst some smaggo tries to give you lung cancer.

I'll make a deal with smokers - you can smoke next to me as long as I can fart directly in your face from about 1cm for the combined duration of each ciggy you puff.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

I must admit that some of the more belligerent of the anti-smoker posts would be almost enough to tempt me to take up smoking. More important, if I were a smoker that kind of thing would be the very thing to help keep me smoking. I think that is something people ought to take into account when tempted to indulge in diatribes on the subject.

The ban on smoking in pubs is a human rights thing as well as a matter of public health. People have a right to socialise in a non smoky atmosphere. People who do smoke have a duty in common courtesy to confine their habit to places where it doesn't cause physical discomfort to others - which normally means outdoors. This would even apply if smokers were in a majority - but in fact they are in a relatively small and dwindling minority.

Here's an article from Wetherpoons about plans for the ban - "When smoking was banned in pubs in Scotland, last March, most Wetherspoon pubs erected awnings and added patio heaters, so that smokers would not feel left out in the cold.

Shelves, tables, chairs and even fireplaces were made available in new outdoor facilities, so that smokers could enjoy the same pub atmosphere as those indoors.

Artwork outside the pubs is designed to reflect pub interiors."

All sounds very civilised. Maybe this kind of thing might offer a setting for music sessions...

I'm still puzzled why the ban is coming in for Wales and Northern Ireland in April, but England has to wait till July.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM

"Personally I think they should bring back breast feeding in public."

As far as I am aware, it never went away. And in Scotland it is an offence to try to prevent someone breastfeeding in a public place.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

Sooner smoking becomes a distant memory, no matter how fond a memory, the better. Agree wholeheartedly and absolutely!

Thanks to the smoking ban, the pubs and bars in Ireland are far more tolerable now. And as a bonus, the hangovers seem less severe - which must have something to do with not ingesting second-hand smoke, which is a vaso-constrictor. For some time I've avoided pubs - and therefore sessions and singarounds - in the UK because of the filthy stink that lingers in my clothes and hair from smokers, so the bans in England and Wales can't come in a day too soon. I haven't had the pleasure of a smoke-free Scottish pub yet, but hopefully at Easter...

If people want to kill themselves at home, that's fine by me, but I don't want to be collateral damage. Hopefully the day will come when a smoker's 'fix' is regarded in polite society as something akin to having a shit - necessary perhaps, but most definitely not to be shared.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Grab
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

Why should smokers expect to be able to smoke in a pub? Just because they always have done? Doesn't make it right, or pleasant. At our club's previous home, there was one couple who both smoked who turned up infrequently. There were three people (three halves of three couples) who had lung or allergy problems and couldn't stand being in a smokey room, and who came most club nights. We asked the smokers to stop - they said no. Not our pub, so we couldn't force them. End result - six people who never came to the club again, because they wouldn't take the risk of travelling over and finding that the smokers were there so they'd have to go home again.

That's what I think of when I hear smokers complaining about this. That and the fact that anything we wear to a smokey pub can't be worn the following day, and that we need showers because we stink of smoke. Oh, and that Ireland is apparently seeing more people than ever in pubs now.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:58 AM

at railway stations you are not allowed to smoke on the platforms

As a regular rail traveller, I would be happy if that rule were introduced on the railways. If it's raining, the smokers all congregate under the covered part of the platform, filling the air with smoke, and forcing the rest of us to choose between getting 'smoked' or getting soaked.

Even if it's fine, and I'm standing in the open air waiting for a train, and some b*gg*r comes up and starts puffing away in my direction (if the wind blows the smoke towards me), it's me that has to move away, as there's nothing to say otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:45 AM

I have exprienced this transition in Ireland, Norway and in Scotland, and found such bans to be beneficial overall. The sooner England follows suit the better. The thing that amazed me was that in Edinburgh at Murrayfield you are not allowed to smoke ANYWHERE in the grounds, at railway stations you are not allowed to smoke on the platforms. Sooner smoking becomes a distant memory, no matter how fond a memory, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:48 AM

I always find that during a gig in a pub with smokers present (even if the atmosphere doesn't seem particularly smoky at the time), my voice gets 'croaky' towards the end of the evening. I never get this effect in a totally smoke-free environment (like the folk clubs I go to regularly). I can only conclude that smoke in the atmosphere adversely affects my voice or throat somehow. (I am a non-smoker myself of course, or it probably wouldn't make any difference.)

So I will benefit from the smoking ban in pubs and have to say I'm in favour, although I sympathise with those who say it's another personal freedom being taken away by this government (but against this is the freedom of people like me to not have to breathe in smoke emitted by other people :-))

Interestingly, a few smokers I know personally are actually in favour of the ban, because they say it will give them the kick up the backside they need, to give it up - they say it'll be the one thing that will help them stop! But I guess they are in the minority, judging by the comments from smokers in this thread and others I've seen elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:34 AM

Yes indeed. Some years ago I was offered a cigarette. I took it, said thank you, screwed it up and threw it away. Obviously the person was offended but I said that I would have only destroyed it by setting fire to it so what's the problem? Personally I think they should bring back breast feeding in public. I certainly am not offended by it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM

Indeed SL. In fact I think the Government should video harriWatts Band performing that song and use it all over the country to promote No Smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:45 PM

"Ciggy Song" - the true path........

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

No one who has more than a single brain cell would deny that Les. Only fools and selfish gits argue against smoke-free public places.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

About 4 years ago, I banned smoking at Market Rasen Folk Club. I had only one offensive person, so I told her it was up to her and never saw her again.
Never had a complaint since and it hasn't hurt the numbers who turn up each night. Probably improved it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:17 PM

As a non-smoker, I prefer smoking pubs.

And clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:50 AM

Things are changing, slowly.
I can remember when it was thought polite to say "you don't mind, do you?" before lighting up in the train....
....in a NON Smoking carriage.
And polit e to say "no of course not", even if you did.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

As an asthmatic I can only welcome the ban. I'd love it if smokers were the polite, considerate beings that have been mentioned in previous postings but I've had several conversations with smokers which have tended to show up the fact that they consider their right to poison themselves is greater than my right to breathe.

Of course, back in the Golden Age of politeness it was thought that smoking was a sign of sophistication, which is why it's in so many of the older movies.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: patriot1314
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:22 AM

As a smoker, I was against the ban when it was introduced here in Scotland. Not just as a smoker but because it was yet another "trial" forced on us by Westminster. Our first minister said a ban would be "unworkable". Lo and behold, weeks later he's off on a "fact finding mission" to Ireland to see how the ban there was working.
He spent 1 hour in 1 pub in Temple Bar where every pub is busy anyway because of the tourist trade and came back home intent on implementing a ban here. Now a ban will come into force soon in the rest of the UK.....Maybe just coincidence, but it's what they done with the poll tax among other things too.

However, since the ban has arrived, I find an improvement in pubs, certainly the pubs without any air conditioning system.
Going outside doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact you find yourself chatting to people you'd never normally speak to.

The downside is, as has been stated earlier, the rise in noticing BO and farting. There is a definate stale sweaty stench now in most places.

I suppose I could give up, but you only have to log into any internet forum (this one included) and you'll find non smokers who are out in a rash, rasping coughs, eyes streaming etc at the mere sight of someone with a lighter in their hand!
Give up?......I'd rather keep my health!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,PaulS
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:16 AM

I understand that the smoking ban here in Scotland started in the spring, as in many other areas, so that smokers could get used to the idea of being outside in the better weather!

Judging by the hardy souls outside our local folk pub over the past two weeks of gales, some smokers are hard to discourage, but a number of friends and colleagues have confirmed changes in their level of smoking.

As a singer, it's great to be able to perform for an evening in a smke-free environment.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:05 AM

I 'choose' to smoke....therefore I can't deny others the right to choose otherwise (nor could I deny them that right even if I wasnt a smoker, of course!)

While I would prefer it if provision was made for smokers to do so, I certainly don't feel my rights have been infringed by pubs, etc, not making provision.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 03:06 AM

Skipy, I'm an expert and prolific farter, especially so since I succumbed to pancreas and gall-bladder problems. I'm also a gentleman who has self-respect, and I never - repeat, NEVER - fart in enclosed public areas. If I'm in the office, a shop, the pub, or any other enclosed public place and I need to fart, I go outside, just like those dirty-bastard smokers should.

And you know perfectly well that my equating passive smoking with passive pissing was simply to make a point! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:34 PM

Just a thought, if this ban is about "smoking in the workplace" is Tony B Liar going to stop troops smoking in Iraq, after all it is their "workplace" we don't want them at risk now do we!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:34 PM

SJ if you fart in a pub or any other public place - shit paticles get into other peoples lungs! can you promise me that you will not fart?
Males & females fart equally 14 times a day! That is approx 380,000 farts each per lifetime, thats a lot of shit!
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

You can also think about it in this way... we don't allow sewage to be dumped into drinking water. So, there are good reasons to have rules that protect our health.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:06 PM

Smoking is the leading cause of preventable death and disability in the U.S. Imagine how much suffering as well as health care costs we would save if people did not breathe in tobacco smoke. Children who grow up around it have long term effects.

LINK Click here
Surgeon General. Koop bolstered his campaign by issuing a report in 1986, entitled The Health Consequences of Involuntary Smoking, that portrayed second-hand smoke not simply as an annoyance but as a quantifiable health risk to non-smokers, especially children.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: diesel
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:57 PM

Hmmm, Smoking ban - Has been in operation here in Ireland a few years now.
First thing to note is the change in the air - And it's not all nice - Peoples farts in a pub are now highlighted !!! I kid you not, the smoke used to mask it !

Overall - yes it was wrong for a govt. to have to introduce a ban, but in hindsight, people weren't going to do it voluntarily.

Since the introduction, the appeal of a night out has gone up, the air is fresher, there are more seats available, and apparently the new 'chat-up areas - are outside with fellow smokers or inside at the bar with other non-smokers.

So yes the character has changed and a lot has been lost, but there has been more in return. Healthier pints and more comfort.

I believe a few pubs have shut their doors, not many but a few. But Is it a factor of the smoking ban or increased vigilence on drink-driving ? I doubt we'll ever know.

Now - if only the publicans would realise that cheaper pints might encourage even more drinkers to return - now there's an idea !

Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM

When a person smokes in a pub, the smoke he/she inhales has to be exhaled. The clothes of others in the romm then become impregnated with the exhaled smoke.

When I have a beer in a pub, the liquid I imbibe has to be passed out of my body. How would the smokers feel if I pissed all over them?

My case rests M'Lud.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM

Here in Maine smoking was banned in restaurants and bars some time ago and it's actually been a huge improvement. There is one city here, Bangor, that just passed a law to make it illegal to smoke in a car with anyone under the age of 18 present. A lot of people are screaming about the government going too far into our business, but I say if you aren't smart enough to protect children from 2nd hand smoke yourself then perhaps the government needs to step in and make that choice for you. I'd like to see it go state-wide.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM

I live in Massachusetts (where smoking in pretty much any indoor space has been illegal for a few years), but spend a good deal of time in England. I love pubs--who doesn't?--and so do my 3 children, who've logged many happy childhood hours in the play areas of various fine establishments whilst the grown-ups have a pint or two. The only fly in the proverbial ointment has been the omnipresence of cigarette smoke, and I freely admit I'm glad to see the back of it.

While I have the ethical issues of any educated, thinking person regarding the tobacco industry, as things stand it remains a personal choice if someone wants to spend their money on it and smoke it. I in no way suppport the government (or anyone else, for that matter) telling people "how to live their lives" in terms of personal choices, but frankly it seems to me more a matter of common courtesy than something that should *have* to be legislated in the first place. If a person makes the choice to smoke, that's his or her decision, but to assume that people who choose not to smoke should be comfortable with or accepting of inhaling their exhalations seems at best thoughtless and at worst dangerous to people who may have respiratory problems, etc. If someone is in a public place and wants to smoke, they can go outside: anyone should be perfectly free to have a cigarette if they want to, but that doesn't mean that non-smokers are obliged to have one, too.

I, for one, am looking forward to amuch more pleasant UK trip this summer.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Anniecat
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

I am unlucky enough to have had my lungs damaged by pollution from trucks going past my shop in a little Oxfordshire town, while the slip road to the M4 was being resurfaced. (True - I have been in hospital 30 times now as a result). Now if I go into a very smokey atmosphere, it is a danger to me.
I kid myself sometimes that if I stay at one end of a room and someone is smoking at the other end I may be able to stand it. Unfortunately, a lot of smokers are actually chain smokers and the fug builds up really quickly. I then have to leave. In the past, when I have told this to a couple of young guys about to smoke roll-ups in front of me in a very crowded session, they have been really pleasant and gone off for their smoke and returned to the music afterwards.
However, in general, the attitude is "If she can't stand the smoke - she shouldn't be here". 'There but for the grace of God' springs to mind and I can't wait for clean air in English pubs.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

The question should not even be whether to ban smoking in pubs...or even where smoking areas should be. The question that needs to be asked is: Why is ANY country still allowing the sale of most tobacco products at all?

If tobacco were only discovered today, and attempts made to get it approved by Food & Drug (or the UK equivalent), what do you think chances would be, given the inherently toxic and unpleasant effects?

Smokers should count themselves lucky that they are being given notice about less & less tolerance for a dangerously addictive product, and being allowed the opportunity to give it up slowly, while protecting non-smokers from the worst aspects of the problem.

It is perfectly understandable that those who ARE addicted would find it difficult to quit, as many of them started before it was made clear how unhealthful it is.....but there is nothing inherently sacred about being able to smoke in a pub, as against a restaurant or a tea-shop. It is only more common, and people tend to stay longer in a pub.

Here in the USA, they are finding that when smoking was banned, business for bars & pubs, after a short decline, tended to level off at near the original levels as NON-smokers returned to the scene. All a ban might do is change the demographics a bit....and maybe for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: the one
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM

just do what the goverment tells you,and dont forget you are sub class.they know what is best for you...

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Jorrox
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

UK and England are not interchangable terms. I can't believe that even on Mudcat people get this wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:53 PM

Well you are welcome at Market Rasen Folk Club then George :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

To get off my soap box, I should also admit that, although a smoker, I also prefer non-smoking folk clubs...And in the old days of smoking carriages on the trains, I always used to avoid the "smoker" ones, they were so disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:01 PM

No smoking in Pubs. Wonderful. Can't wait for it to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Moses
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:51 AM

I welcome the ban on smoking in public places, particularly in pubs.

It is unfortunate that unlike George, who has great regard for the feelings of others, there are many who don't give a toss or who imagine that their smoke does not affect others. For me, it only takes one smoker to ruin a session or an evenings singing in a club.

It really is sad that the old values, consideration for others etc. have gone into decline. How many young and not-so-young people seem unable to string a sentence together without the 'f' word? Would that the Government could put a ban on that too! But I digress...

I have been to clubs where smoking is still allowed but I rarely go back. I go to folk clubs, and the occasional session, because I enjoy the music and despite the discomfort caused to me by other people's smoking.

I hope the ban may save a few lives or at least improve a few people's health.

Christine

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:36 AM

I must admit that, as an ex-smoker, I will be glad to see this ban come into play.

In particular, when Kendall comes with me to the UK there will not be a problem with going to sessions around the country and worrying whether he will be able to stay. His cancer of the larynx was caused solely by smoking and he now will not stay anywhere where people are smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in English pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:34 AM

They don't have notices these days saying that spitting is not allowed in bars and buses. At one time they did, and they were needed.

I'm pretty sure there are still laws against spitting in such places, but no one sees that as an interference with their freedom. Or if they did, they wouldn't have much support from anyone else.

Manners change, and it's not all one way. In fact, if you go back to Victorian Times, there was in some ways much more recognition of the fact that smoking interfered with other people - there were smoking rooms and smoking jackets, and asking if it was all right to smoke before lighting up anywhere else in a home was normal good manners in "polite society".

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

I would be quite pleased if my neighbours would go to the pub to smoke instead of doing it in their garden, a few feet from my window.
Their smoke comes straight into my house (and it's not just tobacco either). It means I have to keep my windows shut even in summer, and I cannot enjoy my garden.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:30 AM

In Wales the ban starts 2 April 2007 (a little earlier than England) i.e one week before MISKIN

Just to get all the info in

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:05 AM

I agree it's a chicken-and-egg thing, Kevin. As long as people are inconsiderate, you need laws; but also as long as you have laws, people don't bother to consider others.

But they used to (be considerate), that's my point, and I bemoan that loss.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:27 AM

How much does the government reap in from smokers each day from tax ?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:17 AM

Well, obviously it would be much better if people were polite enough to go outside when they want to smoke, and there wasn't any cause for making laws about it. The trouble is, they aren't.

And even if some people do have the minimal politeness to do so, it doesn't take more than one who isn't, and the atmosphere is messed up.

Why they have to delay smoke free pubs until July, in England, is a mystery - why not this weekend? Or at least, why not as quickly as Ireland and Scotland managed to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: guitar
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

They have banned smoking here in public places in Scotland, and did you know that 1,000 people die of breathing in second hand smoke every year.

Tom

I don't mind people smoking in pubs or Clubs, I'm a non smoker, and if someone wants to smoke then let them, I don't drink alcihol either.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:49 AM

No argument with that, Bagpuss. But surely, you would prefer to avoid such triggering of your asthma because people care about you, not because of some law, which is only a temporary contstruct and can always (theoretically) be repealed or reversed in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:26 AM

For every smoker "voting with their feet" there will be a non smoker coming back after many year's absence. We have had the ban here in scotland for a while, and I now go into pubs; I never used to, as the amount of smoke triggered bad asthma attacks with me.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:33 AM

Hear, hear, Richard. The nanny state, political correctness and the concept of "rights" (as in "I know my...") have already effectively killed politeness, civility and consideration for others, and are fast converting society into a collection of discrete units simply bumping angrily into each other. A sort of Brownian motion with menaces.

As a smoker, I have never smoked in a non-smoker's house, and when I had non-smokers visit I would air the house well in advance and then refrain from smoking indoors for the duration, except for my little "bolthole" - my office. I also learned from a young age to hold doors open for others (and not just women), to give up my seat on the bus for older people or those in greater need of a rest than me, to avoid making excessive noise during unsociable hours, to clean up after me, not to expect to be waited on hand and foot when I am someone's guest, to be polite in conversation unless repeatedly provoked and all those little but important things that I consider to be the grease that helps life work more smoothly. And I did (and do) such things not out of consideration for anyones "rights", but simply because I care for them. As individuals.

Now nobody bothers to learn (or to teach) such things; they are to busy learning their rights or working out new ways to protect such rights by creating rules and even legislation. They would claim that they do so because they care, but I would dispute that in the majority of cases. They care about their concept of "society", not for individuals.

It's becoming a sick, twisted world, in which "nobody cares, and nobody sees" (Jeremy Taylor). And to continue with the paraphrasis: "Hurry up, Rich, it won't be long before the pubs are closed; I'll buy you a pint, if only we could get across this...oh, bugger!"