BS: Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:20 PM

If you don't have a God -- or some such underlying fundamental principle -- to authorise the tenets of your belief, then youcan't justify your beliefs as being essential, correct or necessary. I realised this a good many years ago, before my faith in God "wore off". To me, using a Creator to explain where everything came from doesn't answer the question: it's simply adding an extra step to the conception that the universe is everything there is and there isn't any "before" or "outside" or "other". (I look forward to being proved wrong on this, by the way!)

Without God to back up what I think, there is no meaning to my thoughts, and no meaning to existence. I suppose I could get used to that idea, but it will take a long time ... instead, I can say (I have to say) that it all has meaning because I choose to give it meaning. But this means I can't believe that my thoughts are more correct than yours, or vice versa. I'm content to accept that no-one whose beliefs I know of (by which I mean the major religious faiths) has the full and exact answer; but that many have a set of beliefs that are valid for part of the answer. Remember the story of the wise men and the elephant? They'd never seen one, but had the oportunity to examine one without being able to see it: the first said it was like a huge muscular snake, the next said it was like a great leathery wall, and the last said it was like a length of rope; all equally valid, but only within their limited scope.

My brain starts to hurt when I've got this far, so I'll leave off philosophising now; but I hope I've got my point -- however pointless! -- across.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:05 PM

As a Jew, my faith is in God.

God lives in us and we through Him.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

My understanding of Creation is this:

Creation cannot be separated from the Creator. Creation is what happens when Divinity expresses itself in form. All beings are tiny sparks of Divinity. Consciousness is Divinity being aware of itself. Creation has purpose. The purpose of Creation is learning and growth.

So for me, faith comes with the understanding that everything that happens contributes to my learning and my growth. And that, in turn, contributes to the learning and growth of all of Creation, and of Divinity.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

And Steve: Thanks for the illumination on charity and love. I wonder if anyone remembers the Donna Summers and Musical Youth song
Everlasting Love? It's the only pop song I can think of that refers to agape.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM

Hey, mooman:

I have two sons. My oldest son believes in God, and considers himself a Catholic, although he is not particularly committed to a particular denomination. My youngest son was very serious about christianity growing up, and is an Agnostic now. And still very serious about spiritual matters. When he was a teenage, he became very interested in Buddhism, and read extensively. We talked a lot about Buddhism, and all the goodness in the faith. I believe that in time, he will come back to God... either as a Christian or a Buddhist.
There is much to be praised in both faiths.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM

I like faith. It helps me believe in myself:-)

Or a more serious application of the same argument. If you can believe that something is right, or wrong for that matter, you must believe in your own powers of thought and reasoning. If you can believe in your own powers of thought and reasoning you must have faith in yourself. If you have faith in yourself it is a simple step to have faith in somthing else.

How can those who claim to have no faith at all expect us to believe that they have faith enough in themselves to win their own arguments?

Works for me;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobjack
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Faith Hill. woof!

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:53 AM

What about Hope and Charity ?

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:48 AM

Some of the best people I know seem to live with a great inner certainty about the unfolding of life -- that it is meaningful, and positive, From that foundation, they get throught he tribulations with courage and humor, because their core truth doesn't waver -- they know they will be all right and can make good things happen, and the universe will go along with that.

This certainty also informs the way they communicate, the way they deal with others, and their general grace in living. It is what I think of as faith, in its essence, because I have little patience with labels and icons and the sort of mechanism that formalized religions seem fond of. It is a faith in the power of the universe for good, and it transcends all labels and categories. It is just as true for a Hindu as it is for a Communist. ANd it does not shake easily.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: mooman
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

As a Buddhist I can certainly subscribe to Jerry's post. The following is from a Christian site about Buddhism and pretty well sums up my philosophy

To the Buddhist, whether we speak of "rights" or "duty," when the illusion of self disappears, neighbour, beast, mountain, and tree all cry out for the same respect, freedom, and charity.

Excellent thread topic Jerry.

Peace to all,

moo

Subject: "Love" v "charity"
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

Paul used the word agape in that letter to the Christian community at Corinth, which was usually rendered as love elsewhere in the NT (where it applies to God's love). Agape in classical Greek writing has the senes of love, founded in admiration, veneration, esteem; i.e. human love, but not in the erotic sense. Jerome, translating into Latin, used caritas to distinguish this sense; charity, the English equivalent, has largely lost this sense today (although the opposite of uncharitable would be nearly right). Think of the sense Jesus meant when he said inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Just be good to one another!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:17 AM

Good subject for a discussion, Jerry. I have always separated my religion (community) from my faith.

I think that I have always had faith in the belief good will triumph over evil. This leads me to believe in the basic goodness of wo/mankind. There will be aberrations, Hitler being one, but ultimately I have to have faith that we will do the right thing. If not, then hope is lost and if that happens, what is left?

I think I am going to stop here and think this through more. One sign of a great thread for me is when I start to write and my mind starts running down 12 "what if" paths at once. I think this is going to be a good one.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:09 AM

With all of the threads about religion, I don't ever remember one about faith. Most of the threads are divisive, pitting people against each other. But, everyone lives by faith. And hope. At least, that's what I believe. In Hebrews 11:1, faith is described this way: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith and hope are inseparable from each other.

I believe that every Catter has faith and hope. Faith and hope may get a little shakey when you're in a depression, I know. But in the long run, it is faith and hope that will bring you through.

Faith has no denomination. Friends of mine like Bill D have a strong faith, and is an Atheist. I don't consider that an oxymoron. I would love to see us set aside our judgment of religions for a minute and just share what we have faith in. That's where our common ground is. So, what gets you through the dark night of the soul? What (or who) gives you hope when everything seems hopeless? Faith and trust are soul mates, too. If you are married, faith is an essential ingredient. If your mate is "unfaithful" to you, there is no way you can have hope. Whenever you have a loving relationship with someone, in and out of marriage, or just in a friendship, you need to have faith in the other person.

And then, as part of the trifecta, there is love. In 1st Corinthians 13:13 it says "Amd now abideth faith, hope and love; but the greatest of these is love."

Whatever your faith is, it is at the heart of who you are. That holds true if you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic or Atheist. I respect you all. If you aren't uncomfortable about it,
I'd love to hear what the foundation of your life is. I'm not concerned about what religion you belong to, or if you don't belong to any. I would just find it refreshing and uplifting to hear where you heart lies.

Jerry