BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Having had time to mull over Janie's conclusion that Zimmerman was but "a little quirky" and as it echoed BillD's equivalent statement early on in this thread (Zimmerman was but "a little odd"), I realise that it's important -if indeed not essential- to contextualise such notions in terms of ones culturally determined understandings of 'normal' human behaviour.

On consideration, and based on the context of our different cultures (with all the unspoken -and often unconscious- assumptions that belonging to differing cultures necessarily implies), I suspect that my subjective understanding of "a little odd" or "a little quirky" will, and do, differ substantially from that of Janie's and Bill D's.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:57 PM

Ya know, Becky... It doesn't matter if the kid was supposed to be in that gated community or not... That is not relevant... We don't have the death penalty for trespassing...

This kid was, in essence, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to death in a matter of minutes by a man with a criminal history of violence... This same man then became the executioner...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:23 PM

Jeri - You may look smarter if you understood what I was saying but maybe it is me not putting it across well enough. I thought 'Why does it need to be a federal crime?' was plain enough for most but I was obviously wrong so I'll try again.

Why does it need to be a federal crime for it to brought to court. In the UK a crime is a crime is a crime. Why does it need to be a federal crime for this man to be brought to court? I really want to know. Beimg a stupid Brit and all that...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

> It has everything

More specifically:

White killer, black victim.

Adult killer, teen victim.

Gun-toting killer, unarmed victim.

High-school football star gunned down on innocent errand.

Fatal shot fired by someone who couldn't handle the responsibility of owning a gun.

Controversial new law.

Which is supported by NRA, not law enforcement.

Florida, home of Jeb Bush, who signed the law.

Dubious claim of "self-defense."

Mysterious motive.

Shooter not arrested.

Killer keeps gun.

Shooter's whereabouts undisclosed.

Will shooter's lawyer make a statement with exciting allegations?

Bungling or racist cops.

Police chief steps aside, but just "temporarily."

First black President has to comment.

Enormous public interest becaue of all the above and maybe more.

Mediawise, it's a "perfect crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM

(Sorry, I should also note that the Wikipedia article collects the sometimes conflicting information that's out there: Trayvon may have been listed as a "John Doe" and in the morgue for 3 days, but his father found out he was there the day after he was killed when he called 911 and filed a missing persons report.)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:00 PM

Lighter, somehow you missed that Martin was walking back from a convenience store to where he was visiting in the gated community with his father and his father's fiance. No need to come up with a different "innocent explanation" for his walking in the neighborhood or say "we'll never know" why he was there.

pdq, of course there are many more murders in this world than this one. Certainly there are many more unjust acts. Your logic doesn't follow, however. (Bill D could probably cite the particular fallacy of your argument.) It's impossible to see them all. Do you think that this case is any less than those others? [As others have said while I was composing this,] This case has a particular combination of factors involved that excite people's interest and involvement.

For me, having a son of the same age as Trayvon Martin, it is the impact of putting myself in the place of his parents, considering what his death in such circumstances would mean to me, and contemplating our luck to be born white in this country, instead of black.

You say: "This shooting (not yet classified as murder, BTW) took place 28 days ago." Yeah. And initially NOTHING was going to happen. No further investigation. It took three days for the parents to find that their son was in the morgue, despite him having a cell phone with "Dad" among the contacts. That's just a start.

I think that this is a case that for many African Americans has added just enough heat to an existing fire to cause the pot to boil over. So many have cited personal experience of either being suspected of or charged with criminal intent without any reason other than their race, or even lost friends or relatives in comparable situations.

People have some hope that if some justice can be done here, or at least light shown on the issue, it might reduce the chances of something similar from happening in the future. Faint hope, perhaps. But worth it.

[Since I always seem to post a link, I'll link the Wikipedia page for the case, which seems to have a pretty carefully referenced rundown of the facts: Shooting of Trayvon Martin.]

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:59 PM

True

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

So far it has everything but justice..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:37 PM

This case seems to have it all. It is a fine exemplar.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:36 PM

The Florida law is so fucked up that a guy saw another guy breaking into his pickup truck, raced out of the house with a big knife, chased the guy 2 blocks before catching him and knifed the guy to death???

Where was all this self-defense in that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:22 PM

The Republican talkng points of Trayvon asking for it by dressing so provocatively is disgusting. Of course that trash is still used against women who are raped.

Johnny Cash "don't bring your gun to town son, don't bring your gun to town" This was sung out loud by Geraldo Rivera on Fox and friends and then said that Mr. Martin should not have been allowed to wear such intimidating clothes. I thought he had sung the song about Zimmermann but I was wrong.

Clothes have nothing to do with a racist gunning and stalking a black kid near his gated community.

It seems the Martin family moved from their Virginia home that was starting to have ore blacks in the community. The killer may have had a protectionist motive in the slaying of Trayvon to preserve his racist agenda for his new neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:22 PM

"Will someone please explain why this shooting merits so much coverage and the others get none?"
This case involves the behaviour of the police and the crassness of a law which allows the execution (that is what it appears to be) of somebody on the grounds of suspicion alone as much as it does the actual ocurrence.
Perhaps it should also involve a discussion on the insanity of US gun laws too!!!
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:05 PM

""Richard, I have searched several sites and found no convictions against George Zimmerman. Could you please give links to actual convictions.

Being questioned by police over a matter is not a conviction.""

He was not merely questioned, he was charged, a significantly different thing.

The charges were later dropped for reasons unknown (one might draw conclusions about that from the current behaviour of the authorities).

And what happened to the requirement for consistent GUEST identities in BS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 01:22 PM

According to FBI statistics, the US suffers through over 17,000 murders every year.

That is about 46.6 murders every day.

This shooting (not yet classified as murder, BTW) took place 28 days ago.

Since then, there have (probably) been about 1300 cases of murder in this country.

Will someone please explain why this shooting merits so much coverage and the others get none?

Is this life more precious than any of the others lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:57 PM

Wanting to understand what happened doesn't make me a contrarian. As I said, the police screwed up the investigation.

Anyway, there's no darker motive in offering an innocent explanation for M. to have been there (taking a wrong turn that would only lead him back to the gate) or, and this was my point, for Z., the watchman, to suspect otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:42 AM

PBS News Hour had a brief overview of the case followed by an interesting panel discussion: "Ta-Nehisi Coates, a senior editor for The Atlantic, Reihan Salam, a columnist for The Daily, a newspaper for the iPad, and lead writer of The Agenda blog at National Review Online. Donna Britt is the author of the book "Brothers & Me," which is in part about the shooting death of her brother by police in Gary, Ind. She's a former syndicated columnist for The Washington Post. And Florida state Rep. Dennis Baxley is a Republican legislator who co-authored that state's so-called Stand Your Ground law."

Trayvon Martin Case Sparks New Protests, Debate Over Race, Guns, Law

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:34 AM

There is enough evidence that he broke this piss poor law as it is written to arrest him. One of these agencies needs to step up to the plate NOW! Zimmerman may be innocent but he has more than enough evidence against him NOW to be arrested.

Let's make Zimmerman black and Martin white.......any questions? This is 2012........Very sad............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

Obama makes first comments on Trayvon Martin shooting (NY Times, with video clip from MSNBC)

He was very careful not to imply any pre-judgement of the case, but expressed his sense that it was a tragedy that required full investigation.

"I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this," Mr. Obama said. "All of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen."
...
"Obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through," Mr. Obama said, his face grim. "When I think about this boy, I think about my own kids."
...
"You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Mr. Obama said, pausing for a moment. "I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and we are going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

There will also be a lot of states taking a look at their own laws on this.

They sure will, Spaw - for about a minute or a minute & a half ..... then they'll look the other way right quick. And nothing will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:14 AM

We do know that Zimmerman determinedly pursued and hunted for Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: meself
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:51 AM

Lighter - Are you just a fun-loving contrarian or do you have a darker motive for making up shit and posting it here ("Did Martin go through a wide open gate thinking he was taking a shortcut home? We'll never know.")?

Oh - or have you read nothing at all about this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:16 AM

Still, here in the UK (where we don't have guns) people who are considered "a little quirky" go bird spotting - or folk singing!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

"Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us,"

I disagree with this Janie. Personally I suspect this person was in fact more than "a little quirky" in the same way that I see any person acting in an extreme fashion (I believe unprovoked killing of a stranger - in a culture which does not explicitly condone such actions - to be an extreme action) to be more than "a little quirky".

Where I do agree is that while others were not necessarily acting in such extreme fashion, they were complicit to a degree. There was clearly sufficient discreet societal (and local to that area) accordance with his views, to superficially 'normalise' this extreme lone action as is evidenced in the absence of legal action against this killer.

I think that the passing of the law discussed below, has no doubt provided a strong societally encouraging precedent to many individuals with potentially extreme tendencies, and the failure to publicly condemn this act, could eventually lead to an implicit social condoning of such actions whereby people who are indeed merely "a little quirky" could become murderers in cold blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:36 AM

Janie is right about mob mentality, though fortunately it hasn't reached that level in this case.

Like many newsworthy events, this one is being turned into melodrama before we know all the facts. Zimmerman is assumed to be a racist out to shoot a young black man for the hell of it. Then the racist white cops cover it up.

From what I've read, evidence for that interpretation exists, but it's shaky.

Just as a possibility (neither likely nor unlikely), what about this?

Z. wants to be a hero. He knows there have been a number of burglaries in the *gated* community. "Gated" is important because it means that there's only one way in and out and that any strange "youth" seen walking there at night will attract attention. (Did Martin go through a wide open gate thinking he was taking a shortcut home? We'll never know.)

Z. sees Martin, calls the cops. He follows Martin, gets out of his car, and challenges him. Martin, a 17-year-old football player, stands up for himself: Z. is obviously not a cop, maybe he's a mugger. Z. gets in M.'s face, M. shoves him, maybe hard. Z. gets scared, still wants to be a crime-busting hero, pulls his gun. Maybe M. tries to take it away. Z. shoots M.

When the cops arrive, Z. tells him he thought M. was a burglar. He says M. attacked him and he shot in self-defense.

For whatever reason, the cops decide that the "stand-your-ground" law protects Z. Maybe they're racists, maybe they're stupid, maybe they're lazy, maybe all of the above. Who knows? But they make that decision.

The only thing I'm convinced of is that Z. should have been arrested (Charges could have been dropped later if that's what the facts warranted.) And obviously there should have been a fuller investigation. Did the police interview the women who claimed on CNN that they saw Z. pinning M. to the ground? (BTW, any defense lawyer would ask how they could be certain who was pinning who? It was dark. It was far away. If they were so sure at the time, why did they wait three weeks to tell their story? Etc., etc.)

The police bungled a serious local incident. They should have expected the outcry. Maybe Z. should go to jail for a long time. Maybe not. Maybe under Florida law he really is "blameless." Let's see what the U.S. Department of Justice investigation has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:26 AM

More examples of "The Talk" (that African American parents must have with their sons):

Florida teen's killing is a parent's greatest fear (Corey Dade, NPR)
Under 'suspicion': The killing of Trayvon Martin (Jonathan Capeheart, Washington Post)

There are so many different pieces of wrong that have come together in this event. Some of it lies in individuals, some in the law, some in society... the racist profiling; gun access; individual vigilanteism; legislative facilitation of vigilanteism; police malfeasance (racist? excused by reference to the legislation?).

Thanks so much for your last paragraph, Janie.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:49 PM

I hear you, Spaw. Seems to me that end of the discussion is pretty well and cogently covered by many of you commenting here.

I just happen to believe that while signing petitions can be effective, petitions also incorporate a bit of mob mentality. I think real social change over time also relies on individual introspection and ownership on an individual level for the attitudes and actions our institutions reflect.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:22 PM

Janie......Although it will assuredly take more for a conviction, the Feds can be called in at any time the locals believe there is poosibly race/lifestyle/etc. involved and a crime of some sort has taken place. That just happened here about a year ago.

Also, the State's attorney in charge of the case has stepped aside and will probably be joinng the Chief of Police reenacting scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen.

Petition count keeps on climbing. Why do we have to have these things before we take action?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

Thhttp://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-case-sparks-dialogue-on-racial-inequality-meaning-of-justice/?hpt=hp_t2 thoughtful blog essay on CNN.

On Morning Addition this morning, an interview with writer Donna Britt and two of her sons-A mom's advice to her young black sons.

Whether or not Zimmerman used a racial slur is indeed important if it makes the difference with whether the feds can get involved if necessary. Otherwise, I'd be sorry to see any attention paid to whether he did or not. The thing is, it does not take the mind of a blatant racist to have an immediate reaction of suspicion or fear about a young black man or teenage walking down the street. As Donna Britt noted, racism and other forms of prejudice are in the air we breathe. All of us. Whatever society in which we live. In addition, we all have our quirks.

Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us, and certainly no more quirky than many friends, relatives and acquaintances Most of us probably have, and some of whom we love.

It is possible that some redeeming good can arise from the terrible reality of Trayvon Martin's death if more people in society than not can own that Zimmerman's choices and perceptions perhaps reflected biases and perceptions that nearly all of us possess to some degree, and result in us questioning ourselves and owning our own biases.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:15 PM

When a law like this is vaguely written and allows such a wide amount of interpretation it is destined for something like this. Justice is involved now and since all it takes for them to be ask to investigate a possible hate crime has already been met, it may take time but we will see some action here. There will also be a lot of states taking a look at their own laws on this.

After a vote of "No Confidence" from the city council, the Chief of Police has "temporarily stepped aside" but his job will be toast and he'll be reeenacting scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:58 PM

BTW... Sign the petition!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:24 PM

I am baffled how "stand your ground" becomes "Chase someone and kill them".

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM

I'm not convinced by the idea that I'm going to hear what I have been primed to hear argument. Even though I have thought that the classic example of mishearing "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance" for "send reinforcements. we're going to advance" would not have worked down a field telephone in time of battle, unless the recipient was an idiot, because he would have expected a message about military matters.

In this case, we have two words which were linked in the mind of the speaker, and expressed strongly, like expletives. They sounded like English, not like a Latin language. The first one definitely had the "uckin" sound in the middle, with a strong suggestion of "ng" at the end. I wasn't so sure of the "f", but it wasn't a sound like "m" for example, and involved some breath sound. The second began with the same sound as in the middle of the first word, and had a long "oo" in the middle, ending with an "s", which is always more audible, hence whispering is not a good way to be unheard.

ducking coots? bucking cooks? hucking coombs? sucking coops? They have to be words which make sense together and in the context, don't they?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:56 PM

By the way, murder is not a federal crime unless special circumstances exist. Racial hatred is one of those circumstances. Otherwise, it's a local issue, and I think many of us may not feel great about the local justice system.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:51 PM

1) Canada can be weird, but not as weird as the US, and
2) You might look smarter if you read the WHOLE sentence you're quoting from. "Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime. However, if one person shoots another based on racial hostility, racial animus, that does become a federal crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:39 PM

Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime.

What? Why does it need to be a federal crime? If someone ends up dead in a street fight why should the other person not stand trial for it? What a weird country you live in...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:22 PM

"If he muttered "fucking coons", according to CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin, "It's extremely, extremely significant because the federal government is not allowed to prosecute just your ordinary, everyday murder," he said. "Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime. However, if one person shoots another based on racial hostility, racial animus, that does become a federal crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:13 PM

Point One: Zimmerman/Zantzinger shot this unarmed man down withoput just cause. I don't give a rat's ass whether or nort he muttered "fucking coons" before he did so.

Point 2: Its murder. Put the asshole in the can for the rest of his natural life. We've altready wasted too much time on this piece of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

It sounded clear to me on the CNN story, but would I have heard the same thing if I hadn't had the words in my mind beforehand? Here at Mudcat our familiarity with Mondegreens and the difficulty of transcribing text from recordings should make us cautious on that front. In that example it disturbs me that we're listening to that 1.6 seconds of sound out of its context.

Today's news: the Sanford police chief has temporarily stepped down (Miami Herald).

Wow - also on the home page of the Miami Herald, "a Miami-Dade judge on Wednesday cited the law in tossing out the case of a man who chased down a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death." link

It seems seriously screwed up to me that the Stand Your Ground law is interpreted as precluding a jury trial. The police or a judge can toss out any charges preemptively.

Florida legislators who wrote the law say they did not intend that it work that way. Looks like they'd best get busy re-writing it.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:35 PM

Very analytical. Sounds clear as day to me.

And for the benefit of anyone foolish enough to believe that all those committing crimes automatically go to jail without passing "go", did I not see that there have been votes of no confidence passed in the local police?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:20 AM

I've just heard CNN play the tape over and over as a journalist and an audio tech try to determine what Zimmerman is muttering.

They agreed it *could* be "fucking coons." The journalist said he wouldn't be able to swear to it, and the tech seemed to agree. So CNN has not been able to confirm what Zimmerman said.

Point One. If a sound expert and a careful listener can't tell what's being said while standing right next to the speakers as the sound is being "cleaned" and enhanced, you're not going be able to tell by listening to the sound of a raw tape (or even the enhanced tape) played through your radio or TV set.

Point Two. I certainly couldn't tell what the words were through my speakers. I'm not even sure he said "fucking," though he may have. CNN, however, was pretty sure that he did.

Point Three. It might help to know what Zimmerman ordinarily sounds like. Being familiar with his accent (and, yes, everybody has one) is necessary. Was he drunk? Was he high? That could influence the sound of his words - not to mention the precise charges to be brought.

Point Four. I've spent many hours transcribing poor-quality tapes. You'd be amazed at how deceptive they can be. What sounds (sort of) clear as day one minute can sound like gibberish the next. And vice versa. Try the threads on James M. Carpenter's sea shanty recordings and you'll see just how inconsistent transcriptions can be.

Point Four: On a bad recording, unless you've had training you will often hear the words you expect to hear.

Point Five. CNN has extremely sophisticated equipment. Maybe somebody has something better. The only people qualified to determine for sure what was said would be a combination of audio experts and specialists in articulatory phonetics, In other words, experts. And a jury may have to decide whose experts are more likely to be right.

I wouldn't advise convicting someone on the basis of a barely audible recording. (Which has nothing to do with the bigger question of whether Zimmerman caused a wrongful death.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

Anonymous guest, you have no comprehension of the layers of the judical process here. The feds will pick up the slack where lax state law has let too many murders go unchallenged. And this state law will probably be overturned in the supreme court because this is the case that will break that camel's back.

One should never have to accept a racist act as legal, just because a flawed law was put in place to protect such acts. Truth will out, and a sense of fair play will come into this.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:28 AM

These words are not on the recording. Accept the fact that if the man had committed a crime, he would have been charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:19 AM

Yep. Maybe they want people to listen for themselves instead of trying to convince people to believe it's what someone else says it is. Also, they might not have been able to play it over and over if the acknowledged it was "fucking coons" because of the censors. Sort of like "if you disagree that's what he says, then its' acceptable to play it 20 times." Those who claim that's not what he said can't complain when it's played on the air so everyone who wants to can hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

Sounds like it to me, even before the audio work. Not clear, but I can't think of any alternative pair of words that it could be instead, with that sort of intonation, and I think anyone claiming that it was something else would have to suggest what it could be, and convince the hearers of that alternative.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:00 AM

Listening to that it sounds clear as day to me "fucking coons".

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:43 AM

Here's a CNN story, including the audio in which they can't confirm the racial slur. Seems pretty clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:33 AM

Guest - you quoted the Daily Mail as saying "According to the Daily Mail, the youth was dealing drugs in the area, he was illegally inside a gated area, "

I've been reading the Daily Mails articles and missed those references. Can you provide a link? From everything I've read Martin WAS visiting someone in that community. His fathers girlfriend. I can find no references in ANY article that Martin ever sold drugs. So can you provide your sources?

Doesn't it sound like a jury should decide exactly what happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:10 AM

Not only, anonymous guest, can I find no trace of what you say the Daily Mail said, I also can't find any trace of what "guest, lighter" reports CNN as saying, but I can find ABC commenting on the apparent use of the word "coon".

I think you ought to verify your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

At no time did I say that Zimmerman had been convicted. He was charged as I stated.   He had also reportedly created trouble in the community by his eager vigilantism.



I have found no trace of any charge against Martin, nor anything other than favourable reports of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:01 AM

Thanks for that Lighter. I knew someone had added that word to bolster up their twisted side of the story.