BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:10 PM

Bit of a conundrum this, could be as jimmy c says dirty tricks by the british government in colusion with loyalist interests to discredit SF/IRA and give an excuse to remove them from the political process.
But would the UK govt really want the return to the "armed struggle" that this would inevitably lead to?

The other scenario ,is that the IRA, realising that their objectives (united Ireland)were never going to come to fruition though the ballot box, pulled off the robbery leaving enough evidence to ensure that the UK government had no alternative but to expell them from the assembly.
This would ensure that SF/IRA could still portray themselves as the injured party and go back to "armed struggle "to deliver their objectives...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

"My money would be on the possibility that it was the S.A.S., deliberately staged to discredit Sinn Fein and the I.R.A"

The SF and IRA have done a good job discrediting themselves at it is. I don't think they required help from the Special Air Service.

A similar sort of thing happened in Quebec when English language rights were taken from the English speakers of the province. Canada stood by and allowed it to happen. Approximately 800,000 English speakers had their language rights taken away. So, while I do make an effort to understand the Troubles--a process started by the British, I fail to see that Irish killing Irish brings the difficulties to a close or to a satisfactory conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 02:18 PM

What a wonderful wedding present and so much appreciated by Charles and Camilla, a half million Pounds of Northern Bank notes, this is real power sharing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

After that Google I did which threw up one meaning for "UDF" as United Dairy Farmers, I've been thinking what some of the other sets of initials in the Northern Ireland Alphabet Soup could be used for, when they are no longer needed.

IRA - Irish Rastafarian Association
UVF - Universal Vagrant Fellowship
DUP - Dialectical Urban Proletariat
UDA - Urinal Disinfection Agreement...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C.
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:26 AM

Hi all, I haven't been here for a while but have been reading the submissions with interest. I would really appreciate it if some who write on this topic would read a little about the history of Ireland, especially the 6 counties. We have at the present time armies fighting all over the world for the cause of democracy, - That is what the root of the problem in N.Ireland is all about democracy or the lack of it.

This statelet was set up against the overwhelming majority of Irish wishes. It has been maintained ever since for one purpose only, that is to keep the northern catholics in line as second class citizens, discriminated against in housing, jobs etc.

What other countries call rights, the loyalists call concessions when it applies to nationalists. For the past 80 odd years the world has stood by and watched this happen, but if the same things were taking place in any other country the world would be furious, the U.N. etc would demand corrective action, but not in Ireland.

As far as the actions of the british and the british army I think you all know where I stand, they are a bunch of thugs in uniform, If they were not in the army they would be following the soccer teams to Europe and causing havoc wherever they go.

But getting back to the Bank riad, I believe that this operation was too sophisticated for even the P.I.R.A. My money would be on the possibility that it was the S.A.S., deliberately staged to discredit Sinn Fein and the I.R.A.- Think about it, all was going the way of the nationalists, they have adhered to the ceasefire - but that was not enough - They carried out decopmmisioning, witnessed by the selected people , but that was not enough, they offered to destroy all their weapons, and have it witnessed by a protestant and a catholic clergyman, but that was not enough. All this was leading to a lot of questions as to what do they have to do next.

To prevent them getting an increase in public ralations something had to be done to set them back - thus the bank job. In the middle of the day, in the city centre of the largest city in the north, where one cannot walk 20 yards without bumping into a policeman they were able to steal 26 million pounds and get clean away. No witnesses ?????. All of a sudden the accustaions come out - it was the P.I.R.A. - show us the proof, that is simple enough - show the proof. It is obvious that the authorities are stalling hoping against hope for some thread of evidence or hoping that some nationalist gets mad enough to do something stupid like setting of a bomb etc.

It is clear to me that loyalists politicians do not want the Good Friday Agreement to succeed, if so why is 80% not implemented yet. The loyalist want nothing less than to go back to the old days, with a complete surrender of the nationalists and the nationalist dream - well it ain't going to happen.

Show the evidence or shut up about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:44 AM

Well you'd better widen your net there Eric. The British Army/UDA/UVF (remember the collusion reports or did we just make that up) deliberately targeted innocent victims like ALL terrorists do. Let me see Bloody Sunday springs to mind. Oh and you might want to talk to the parents of 10 year-old Stephen Geddis, chased down by a British soldier in the street and shot dead at point blank range (40 yards) with a plastic bullet. Then there's ex 13 year old Brian Stewart. Shot in the face with a plastic bullet from 10 yards by a British Soldier on foot patrol. Julie Livingstone made it to the ripe old age of 14 years old when she was shot in the head by a British soldier from a distance of 7 yards. Her crime, she was returning from the shop on an errand for her mother. Little Carol Ann Kelly who's family I know personally, aged 12. Shot dead by a British soldier from a distance of 5 yards. She was bringing home a carton of milk. Mind you they never checked the carton. She could have been carrying anything. A point that I'm sure was taken into consideration by the inquest because this soldier and none of the others I mentioned were ever convicted of any wrong doing.

Sadly I could go on and on Eric but I think your point is well made.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:34 AM

I have no disagreement with that, eric. My problem comes from one sided rhetoric. By omission, you give the loyalist thugs a free ride. Happens all the time. One talks of Irish terrorists and SF/IRA pops out, but rarely the various loyalist acronyms. The root of the Irish struggle is just, even if some of the tactics are not. I never agreed with targetting civilians, especially children. I just tire of folks that have a onesided view, and use the IRA as a convenient way to remain intellectually lazy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:19 AM

Point is Mick we don't make excuses for what Ai Qaida did in your country, terrorism is terrorism full stop. and IRA/SF deliberately targeted innocent victims like ALL terrorists do, I don't care what the history is, chldren can never be legitimate targets, only the twisted ideals of terrorists accept this.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:03 AM

Unionists and loyalists do not want to share power. That's been the way of things since this state was brought into being. If you have been following any of this sorry scenarion since the introduction of the Good Friday agreement then you will see it has been one stall tactic after another to bring the fledgling assembly to its knees. If it wasn't Sinn Fein it would be any other Nationalist supported party that significantly challenged the establishment.

There you go, being an apologist again, he says with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Well said, Den.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:54 AM

Bruce, the public apology wasn't neccesary but I admire you for doing it, you're a civil man. I was satisfied that we had ironed out our differences privately, thanks again. It goes to show that communication is still the best medicine.

McGrath I did do a check on UDF before posting. Obviously I didn't check enough. What did you turn up? Mostly I was going by my own experience. I have already apologised for jumping to my feet a little quickly and Bruce knows the rest. UDF in the grand scale of things is still insignificant when it comes to the other organizations mentioned above.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Unionists and loyalists do not want to share power. That's been the way of things since this state was brought into being. If you have been following any of this sorry scenarion since the introduction of the Good Friday agreement then you will see it has been one stall tactic after another to bring the fledgling assembly to its knees. If it wasn't Sinn Fein it would be any other Nationalist supported party that significantly challenged the establishment.

Now the IMC has said that it has information linking high ranking Sinn Fein members to the robbery but guess what they are not divulging it. Funny though how they had no problems making empty accusations to the press.

The comedy continues. A major search operation in west Tyrone linked to the Northern Bank robbery has ended with nothing found, police today confirmed.

A business and two homes belonging to brothers Michael and Liam Donnelly from Beragh were searched by police for 36 hours.
During the searches, an area of land was dug up and police used radar equipment as well as divers to search a pond.

Nice to see all that intelligence gathering being put to good use.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:56 AM

Yeah, Kevin, I was thinking that as I wrote it. I apologize for snapping off there, but folks are always so damn onesided when it comes to this discussion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM

The British government, in cahoots with a bunch of transplanted folks, take a country from its inhabitants... - be fair though, Mick, that could as well refer to the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:18 AM

Why is it that some mudcatters have a screwed up sense of history? The British government, in cahoots with a bunch of transplanted folks, take a country from its inhabitants, discriminate against them in housing, schooling, employment. They detain them without charge, and harass little schoolgirls. When someone speaks up for them and takes the challenge, they are called an apologist. Why didn't you ask the question as to why so many think this Northern Irish policy implemented by the British government to keep control in Parlamaent to the detriment of the Irish folk living there is a good thing?

Pretty stupid question. And why didn't you question the apologists for the loyalist thugs?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:23 AM

Why are so many mudcatters IRA/SF apologists ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:21 AM

Well, it only takes about ten seconds to check that about the UDF, Den. Not that keeping track on all the daft initials the paramiitaries used from time to time is too easy or maybe has much point. But it was you who put in a correction to a previous post by brucie, and the correction was in fact wrong.

One encouraging thing though - when I put UDF + Northern Ireland in Google, to check how long it took, the first UDF that came up was the United Dairy Farmers....

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:28 AM

Just heard on TV British Govt are considering re-convening the NI Assembly and excluding SF from the political process.

This bodes ill for peace in NI, as SF have the support of over 350,000 NI voters.

These voters will of course become dis-enfranchised should SF become excluded.
This would seem a strange stance for a UK government which espouses support for democracy in other parts of the globe...Ake


good point, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:27 AM

Brucie, I haven`t a notion, I had no problem with your apology, but thanks for giving me the chance to give Ian Og a faceful of dandruff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 12:46 AM

The apology was given honestly, openly and without condition. Den and I have exchanged a few messages and he's a really nice guy. Thanks for that, Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:23 PM

Just heard on TV British Govt are considering re-convening the NI Assembly and excluding SF from the political process.

This bodes ill for peace in NI, as SF have the support of over 350,000 NI voters.

These voters will of course become dis-enfranchised should SF become excluded.
This would seem a strange stance for a UK government which espouses support for democracy in other parts of the globe...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

Unless I missed something, it seemed like a straightforward apology, well given, and without condition. Well done, Bruce.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:21 PM

Hey, Ard,

I too am sorry you were the GUEST. What specifically got your shorts in a knot with what I wrote to Den?

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:02 PM

You do that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:31 PM

Sorry I was the Guest, now i`m back after seeing Ian Og, nursing a sore pair of Henry Halls, but you should see Ian Og.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:27 PM

Brucie you have really touched me, now i`m off to give Ian Paisley JR a kic kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:48 PM

Den,

I wish to apologize for my 'idiot' remark. That was uncalled for. The situation is idiotic, not the people. You are correct that your view growing up in NI is much more 'real' than is my view from books and movies. You have been a gentleman about all this, and I hope you'll accept my attempt at amends. I can be a real ass when I set my mind to it, and it seems this is one of those times. From the messages we've exchanged, it's easy to see that I'm the idiot in this equation. Thank you for your kindness and understanding.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM

Oh alright then, have it your way, no jokes. Den

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:29 PM

Just a little joke Wolfgang. Den

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:51 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:37 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:11 AM

Wolfgang, just wondering, were you a hall monitor at your school by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:36 PM

All I was trying to 'prove' is that the UDF was not a typo on my part. The posts are quotes from various sites. I have also learned that they are not the generic label for organizations of that nature in NI.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 09:16 PM

McGrath, since you seem to know so much maybe you would like to enlighten me. I grew up in N.Ireland through the worst of the troubles, lived in Belfast and never was aware of the UDF. If it was some boy's brigade feeder group for the UDA then I stand corrected.

Brucie, "Ulster Defense Force (UVP) Description", not sure what you wanted to prove with that post but you then went on to describe the UVF. The UVF have been around for a long time.

If I have made a mistake then I apologise to all and sundry but the UDF if they were as you describe a training or youth group they were not major players as per the context of the posts above. Certainly not killers in the same league as the UDA and some of its off-shoots,such as the UFF and the Red Hand Defenders/Commandoes.

Its all very well to have the time on your hands to go searching through the internet for info. Its a very different matter to be on the ground and know what to look out for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM

Den,

I could supply more if you wish. I think all groups have certainly committed terrible crimes in the name of the Cause. The people I have admired most: Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams and their efforts in the mid 1970s. I likely don't know as much about Northern Ireland as you would like me too, and maybe I never will. But I do know I don't admire either side of the issue, nor do I care for what the English government has done, and you can take that for what it's worth.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:26 PM

Den,

From: http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2004/pgt_2003/pgt_2003_31759pf.htm


"Ulster Defense Force (UVP) Description
Loyalist terrorist group formed in 1966 to oppose liberal reforms in Northern Ireland that members feared would lead to unification of Ireland. The group adopted the name of an earlier organization formed in 1912 to combat Home Rule for Ireland. The UVF's goal is to maintain Northern Ireland's status as part of the UK; to that end it has killed some 550 persons since 1966. The UVF and its offshoots have been responsible for some of the most vicious attacks of "the Troubles" including horrific sectarian killings like those perpetrated in the 1970s by the UVF-affiliated "Shankill Butchers." In October 1994, the Combined Loyalist Military Command, which included the UVF, declared a cease-fire, and the UVF's political wing—the Progressive Unionist Party—has played an active role in the peace process. Despite the cease-fire, the organization has been involved in a series of bloody feuds with other Loyalist paramilitary organizations.

Activities
The UVF has been active in Belfast and the border areas of Northern Ireland where it has carried out bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings, extortion, and robberies. On occasion, it has provided advance warning to police of its attacks. Targets include nationalist civilians, republican paramilitary groups and, on occasion, rival loyalist paramilitary groups. The UVF continues to observe a cease-fire.

Strength
Unclear, but probably several hundred supporters, with a smaller number of hard-core activists. Police counterterrorist operations and internal feuding have reduced the group's strength and capabilities.

Location/Area of Operation
Northern Ireland. Some support on the UK mainland.

External Aid
Suspected in the past of receiving funds and arms from sympathizers overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

Den,

"Ulster Nine-county province of ancient Ireland. However, the term is now commonly used by Unionists to refer to the six counties in Northern Ireland
Ulster Defense Association (UDA) Founded in September 1971, the major Loyalist paramilitary group, now outlawed
Ulster Defense Force (UDF) Loyalist paramilitary training group created in 1986 by UDA
Ulster Democratic Party (UDA) Founded in 1988 as ULDP (changed name in 1989), led by Gary McMichael. Links with UDA
Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) Loyalist paramilitary group
Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party (UDLP) Former name of UDP. First formed by John McMichael of the UDA in 1981. Re-established in 1988
Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) Largest Unionist party, led by David Trimble, also known as the Official Unionist Party
Ulster Volunteer Force (UFV) Originally formed in 1912 to oppose Home Rule, re-established in 1966 and is now a banned Loyalist paramilitary group
Ulster Workers' Council (UWC) Loyalist organization founded to generate wide-scale strike action and civil disobedience in protest against the Sunningdale"

You might want to correct the people at this site:

http://home.att.net/~IrishPeace.com/Glossary.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,McGrath
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

Of course there was a UDF. I wish people would take the few seconds necessary to check categorical statements like that before they put them up. There's enough confusion about this whole business anyway, without adding more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:31 PM

Mural Number: 444
Location: Lisburn, Co. Antrim
Type: Unionist / Loyalist
Year: April 2000
Status: Still exists at location
Description: Symbols of UFF, UDA, LPA, UDF with Ulster flag, Union Jack and St. Andrew's flag, "In memory of Brig. J. McMichael. Murdered by the enemies of Ulster on 22nd Dec 1987. Never will be forgotten."

from the CAIN website (my emphasis)

maybe someone can go over there and have a look?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

I don't think you know very much about N. Ireland at all. There isn't an organization called the UDF. Never was and probably never will be. (Den)

Perhaps you are right and there are more than 1000 typos on the web (google for "UDF Ulster") but there are lots of websites even giving a date when a UDF was founded. So if this is an error, it has been made by many.

One example (of many)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 01:10 PM

Brucie, I'd like to hear how your comments weren't meant to insult. I come from a nationalist background in N. Ireland, so are you calling me an idiot? I don't think you know very much about N. Ireland at all. There isn't an organization called the UDF. Never was and probably never will be. The Loyalist paramilitaries (funny how the loyalists belong to Paramilitary groups and the Nationalists belong to terrorist organizations) are as follows: Two main groups the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) and the UDA (Ulster Defence Association). The UVF are old school much like the official IRA are old school. UDA members also operate as the UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters). The two main groups combined for a while until a violent split. Out of this split emerged the LVF (Loyalist Volunteer Force) and The Red Hand Defenders and another smaller group called The orange Volunteers who are largely UDA and UVF members operating under a different name. Thought I'd clear that up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:50 AM

"Paisley's mob or anyone else fools"

I'll call Paisley's mob's fools, idiots war mongers, but I will not point the finger at them and say you were the sole cause and the only asshole doing it.

Nor will I point the finger at Protestant people and say they are the sole cause.

We all forget that since before St Paddys time the Irish and English have been intertwinned.And not all bad that happens in Ireland can be blamed only on the English no matter how much I would like to to take the moral high ground some people try to do.

Accept it all our hands are dirty, you will never convince me that predjudism is unique to one side. Get real.

To get into the indepth reason of why such misguided people yell at school children takes honest dialogue, something that is sadly lacking on this board.

We have idiots dividing us on religous grounds rattelling on about the buck ejits in the orange order but not questions asked why they came about, maybe if the catholic's of that time had not attacked out laying protestant farms killing and maiming people than the OO would not have come about.

Both sides forget that Catholics fought alongside protestants with William, with the support of the Pope. And at that stage what would have been United about Ireland anyway, under a king who was a tyrant.

Do people forget about the Free Irish men, what was their religion Presbyterian, who have the most fluent Irish speaking people among their ranks today.

Life is not as black and white as it seems and no I am not defending loyalists nor the OO but trying to understand them. Just as I try to understand the IRA.

Look at the underlying reasons as to why things are done, maybe the people on the Ardoyne were driven to the action they took. Not much was reported on the trouble they had. And yes maybe those who were doing the ethnic cleansing of the protestants people from the Ardoyne had their reasons.

Something has to snap to make people react like that, its wrong, but maybe its understandable.Something makes them think their actions are just, just like the IRA bombing Omagh killing babes in the womb.

None of it is right,but finger pointing and deliberitly not understanding the other side solves nothing.

But of course there are those on both sides who see no wrong in their own.

Shame on you, narrow minded bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Guest The Observor
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:55 AM

Welcome back Belfast/ N.Ireland, or should I say Ireland, good to see your neutral loyalist views again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:40 AM

Until someone in authority produces solid evidence, like some of the cash that was stolen, I and everyone else who have a mind to, can tell Orde, Ahearn, Blair, etc, that they are fools, produce the evidence, and then point the finger.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

Freda; There are two very distinct issues. Please don't confuse them.

1. Is evidence needed before you make serious allegations against an organisation or against indiviuduals.

2. What is the solution to the mess in Northern Ireland?

Because contributors cannot present you with a quick fix solution to a complex problem does not that they don't have the right to refute the illogical stance of politicians in condemning Sinn Fein without evidence.

The problem of Northen Ireland is a a matter "of domestic British concern" as Margaret Thatcher was so fond of saying. And in a way she was right. The Problem was created by the British - they wanted control - (as they originally created the problems of the Middle East)- so the British should solve it democartically and according to the norms of natural justice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 10:28 PM

Mick, thank you.

I really wasn't trying to offend anyone: North, South or British. I do know the history fof Ireland--not as well as a scholar, but I know it. I know that historically the Irish had their country split by England. I know that Protestants and Catholics have difficulty getting along, maybe nowhere so much as in Ireland. I do understand 'gang' menntality because I came from a district that had gangs because we needed to have gangs for protection.

I look at the country--no, the Island of Ireland--and I see from afar a beautiful place with myth and legend intertwined; with what I really think is the most beautiful music on Earth; with writers and poets who can hold thjeir place with the giants of literature of this or any other time--and I also see evil, ugly, perverted bastards who would kill a child to further their cause. We see this in the mid-East. We see this with self-appointed fanatics who would corrupt the very heart of Holy to reach a place from which to declare, "Hey, boyo, we WON." What can anyone win by spilling the blood of people whose real heroism lies in living life, raising families, and just going about the daily things we take for granted. No, sir, I think the things done in the name of this cause and parenthetically most other causes degrade humanity. The Cause has a life of its own, and it is not dedicated to justice now--if indeed it ever was.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:44 PM

You weren't offending, Bruce. I just wanted to hear how you arrived at your conclusion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:42 PM

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, Mick. My introduction to what has been called "The Troubles" was Leon Uris' book "Trinity". I looked further.

I grew up singing with a fellow named Trevor who was an Orangeman. My own grandmother was a gal from England who seldom had a good word to say about 'The Irish' until she discoverd after receiving the family papers (when her older sister passed on) and found the birth certificate of her mother: she was Irish Catholic. My grandmother grew up in England. In this hodge-podge, I was thoroughly confused. Who to believe about what?

I will go get internet sources to show that the IRA, UDF and Brits kill savagely and without any remorse in the name of their 'causes'. Sorry, but with regard to Ireland, I have no respect for any of them. The three groups have their killers: tehy use them. SAS, IRA, UDF. They put a nice look on things with front parties, but what I see is a group of people who have deluded themselves into the belief that their cause is just. No cause is just when little kids are killed. Wheteher it's a drill bit through the knee or a bullet to blow off the cap, a sniper shot from a thousand yards or a bomb that is less discriminate, these people are not heroes in my opinion. And I don't care who's side they are on. That's what I meant. Nothing more and nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM

Lest my position be misunderstood, no, I don't support violence as a solution. Anyone who thinks it easy to call the Irish, the Brits, Paisley's mob or anyone else fools there had better show their superior intelligence to come up with a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM

Bruce, I mean no offense, but that response is usually reserved for those that haven't been able to sort out the facts and come to an opinion. I wonder if you would be so good as to explain how it is that they are all idiots. I am not being a smart ass here, I just need to know. Freda has demonstrated her position with cites and information. Could you do the same?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:15 PM

And lest anyone mistake the intent of my post:

"They're idiots on all THREE sides." NI, Erin and Britain.