BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:42 PM

Well, if Iraq is this Utopia-in-making, Dougie, then why the heck do we have to pay $12B a month to keep it occupied???

(Well, Boberdz... Think of it this way... Iraq is so great that our troops are like vacationing there and that's why we have to pay all that money to be there...)

Oh???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:18 PM

That's a lot more than McCain has seen fit to say about it. Very brave of you. Do you realize that the violence is now about 20 percent of what it was at its worse? So its still pretty bad. I don't see how American troop can make them welcome other ethnic groups and share their wealth. They probably would resent being force to do that at the point of 130,000 guns.

So just how are McCain's plans going to win us that victory? How soon can we remove our troops?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:19 PM

I think victory in Iraq will be defined as follows, JTS:
The violence in Iraq will be rare instead of commonplace.
The government of Iraq will be stable and as free as possible of corruption and will serve the public equitably.
The Iraqi Army and other Iraqi security forces will be able to protect the population from those who would do it harm.
A fair, workable plan will be initiated by the Iraqi government to equitably share oil revenues.
Iraqi citizens will be able to travel to all areas of the country without fear of roadside or human suicide bombers blowing them up.
Other Arab states in the region will recognize the Iraqi government and welcome Iraqi diplomats to establish embassies in their countries.
Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds will enjoy equal opportunities.

That's about it, JTS.

You?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:57 PM

Doug,

You don't need to simplify. Just write clearly in the first place.

Frankly I don't know what you think is best. But I have read plenty of complaints from you.

You can start now. What is the best for this country in reference to Iraq? And don't just say "victory" because that is an empty word if you can't define what victory is.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:35 PM

Well, given McCain's idea that Iraq is going to be like, ahhhhh, South Korea where we are going to occupy it indefinately, yeah...

Not 100% sure about Obama but I think he is the better bet... At least he knows who is who which puts him in a class well beyond McConfused...

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:25 PM

It seems to me, if there is a solution to be found in Iraq, neither McCain nor Obama are ever going to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:29 PM

I'll try to simplify it JTS. My opinion of what is best for our country differs from yours and The New York Times. Comprendo?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM

Me think Dougie had a "McCain Moment", Jack... lol...

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:46 PM

>>Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:54 PM

JTS: I want what is NOT best for the country? And who determines what is best? You? The New York Times? Gimme a break.<<

Your avowed ability to read the english language aside, that is exactly my point. You said we were on opposite sides, I didn't say that, you did. I know that you would not be so rude as to say that I do not want what is best for the country. Leave that kind of ignorance to desperate politicians like John McCain. So it puzzles be for you to say that you are opposite from me.

Did you perhaps mean opposing rather than opposite?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM

DougR-
Re. torture--Which probably can't be justified even if guilt were known...which it isn't. I seem to recall some Japanese being hanged after WWII for waterboarding American POWs.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

It isn't as much that Bush has been the big spender, even thou he has, it's been that Bush hasn't spent money that the Treasury had to spend... Face it, Dougie, even if you cut out all the pork you wouldn't decrease the annual budget even 5%... That's right... So what that means is that Bush's irresponsible tax cuts are going to have to not be made perminent... Sorry, Dougie...

As for torture, it isn't as much as defined in eyes of the beholder as it is human decency and international law... We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding and then we now turn around and do it ourselves... No eye of the beholder involved...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:54 PM

JTS: I want what is NOT best for the country? And who determines what is best? You? The New York Times? Gimme a break.

Dick Greenhaus: I am not particularly pleased with the Republican Party at this time. Bush and the Congress spent money like it belonged to them, government did not grow smaller, it got bigger, and some Republican Senators and Congressmen got too greedy for their and the Party's own good. That doesn't mean that I embrace what the Democrat party has become however. It is no longer the party of Franklin Roosevelt or Harry Truman, it's become much closer to Karl Marx instead and I think, eventually, that will be it's downfall.

As to torture:whatever means were used to interrogate terrorist prisoners were approved by appropriate members of the Justice Department. "Torcher", in many ways, is in the eye of the beholder. So far, it has not been proven that any of the methods used by interrogators were in violation of the Geneva Convention. There are MANY (including you I suppose) who do not agree. I am not convinced that terrorists, when captured, will willingly tell interrogators what they want to know simply by being nice to them.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

Ron,

You make a good point, but that is where I have hope. With the price of oil where it is, the iraqis have plenty of money. But as long as we are spendig our money to keep the peace there, they don't have to. It time to wean them off our tax money. Bush has seemed incapable of doing that. Obama, without Bush's baggage, has a better chance to succeed. McCain, has less Iraq baggage than Bush. But Obama is in the best position.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

Ah yes, one more thing has made the current success--temporary as it may be--possible. And again it has nothing to do with the "Surge"--increase in troops.

Not only were many Sunnis totally alienated by al-Qaeda's barbaric behavior in attempting to enforce their brand of Islam. But many Sunnis--and Shiites--were unemployed. And willing to take the relatively good wages offered to them by the US military for participating in various self-defense organizations.

Again, this has improved the situation--but again, was not caused by the "Surge"--it has nothing to do with an increase in US troops.

And, as many Mudcatters have already pointed out, when this money to these formerly unemployed military-age men stops flowing from the US, it's not at all certain the current lull will continue. So unless the US withdraws its combat troops from non-Kurdish Iraq soon, as Obama advocates, the US will have to continue paying doubly in Iraq to avoid paying in blood. That is, we pay to maintain our troops there, and we pay to keep military-age Iraqi men employed.

And in both cases, that money can and should be used elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:27 PM

That is:   "Only Bush supporters like to start wars at the drop of a hat, it seems" . In case there is any doubt due to the phrasing.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM

DougR

"Opposite point of view" I want what I think is best for the country. I'm sure that the New York Times wants the same. I didn't realize that you wanted the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 11:33 AM

DougR-
What aspects of the present Republican party's performance do you consider to be Conservative? The deficit spending? The weakening of Constitutional government? The increasing infringement of Federal Government on States' rights? The institutionalizing of torture?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:19 AM

Also: "marooned in "Kurdistan". More tripe. Who's going to attack well-fortified bases in Kurdistan? ( And the Kurds would be quite happy to have such American bases there). The Turks would not attack. Nor would the Iranians-unless the US is criminally stupid enough to attack them.

Some people don't seem to realize that not everybody likes to start wars at the drop of a hat--only Bush supporters do, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

"worse-than-useless"

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

Sorry, got back from work at about midnight last night. Didn't get a chance to check the 'Cat.


Petraeus had no idea, as most people did not, that al-Qaeda would be as consistently stupid as it has been--and that their vicious barbaric "Moslem Puritanism" would cause the huge revulsion in the Sunni population that it did. He may be very intelligent but his crystal ball is not perfect, just as Mudcatters are not always correct in foretelling the future. (But many Mudcatters and Obama predicted many of the problems which have occurred as a result of the Iraq war--in contrast to the fools who beat the drum for war-- on Mudcat and elsewhere.)

As a prudent military man, Petraeus felt he wanted to maximize his forces. But, as it turns out, it was not necessary.

To say that the current success in Iraq is due to the " surge"--more troops--is the post hoc fallacy.


One more thing: There is nothing inherently wrong with being a Sunni. Just as there is nothing inherently wrong with being a Shiite. There is obviously something wrong with being a Nazi.   Teribus' parallel of Nazis and Sunnis is only dead wrong but pernicious---as is his further dehumanization of Moslems by talking of the "9 old gits"-- since it leads to completely wrong policies.   This sort of attitude exemplifies the worst of Western cultural blind arrogance--but it's not surprising to see in Bush supporters.

So, as I said, it's certainly good that Petraeus has totally rejected Teribus' worse-than-uesless attitude regarding the Sunnis--and a very good thing that Teribus has, to say the least, limited clout in the Mideast.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:36 AM

"The "surge" was incidental--and likely not even necessary--Petraeus' intelligence and al-Qaeda's stupidity made the improvement in Iraq--and Petraeus would have needed no more troops--no "surge"-- to achieve it." - Ron Davies

"The Surge" - "incidental" - "not necessary" - "needed no more troops".

You then refer to General Petraeus' intelligence Ron. If that is what you believe Ron could then please explain why it was the intelligent General Petraeus who asked for the additional combat formations required for "The Surge", after all "The Surge" was his idea - Or are you saying that he didn't know what he was doing? This from the man who would maroon US Forces in "Kurdistan" with no line of retreat.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:20 AM

JTS: "The standards of the New York Times?" What a laugh. The "Times" readership has been reduced to only a few thousand folks like you who labor under the illusion that your point of view reflects the majority of American voters. It's sad really. You folks are going to find yourselves in the same position you were in when you were rooting for your candidate in 2004! It must be terrible to be so committed to a losing philosophy and find yourselves so often as political losers. I think that may account for the reason that it is so difficult for you, and those who believe as you do, to engage in reasonable discussion with folks that have a political view opposite from your own. Sad really.

And kat, I love you, really I do, but I simply do not understand why folks who share your and JTS's political point of view offer Blogs as evidence of the correctness of your belief. Those of us with a conservative POV could do the same, but whatever would be the point. It's like the preacher preaching to his believers.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:25 PM

"Seems it's a very..."

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:23 PM

This is getting a bit boring. Doug R and other lockstep Bushites still parrot the old line about the "surge" making Sunni assistance to the "Coalition" possible. ( "When will they ever learn?")

Precisely backwards. The Sunni disgust and loathing for al-Qaeda,--which predates the "surge"--- caused, as I've noted more than once, by al-Qaeda's insistence on enforcing their own brand of Islam by maiming and murder, was what made the success in Iraq possible. The other element was Petraeus' realization that he had to get his troops out of their heavily fortified areas--and get them to fight by the side of Iraqis. The "surge" was incidental--and likely not even necessary--Petraeus' intelligence and al-Qaeda's stupidity made the improvement in Iraq--and Petraeus would have needed no more troops--no "surge"-- to achieve it.

It's also a question as to how durable the success is--since al-Sadr and his "army" are still there, having made the tactical decision to lie low for a bit--and especially since it looks like the vaunted provincial elections will not take place this fall. Which in turn has a lot to do with the fact that, as I've mentioned, the Kurds in "Kurdistan" want nothing to do with "Iraq".





By the way, thanks, Teribus, for giving more of your Sunni-Nazi quote, placing it further into context. Too bad the context does nothing but cement your obvious punitive attitude toward all Iraqi Sunnis---exactly the wrong attitude when trying to break up a Sunni insurgency.

Petraeus, on the other hand, rejecting totally your meat-cleaver approach to diplomacy, has looked for and found common cause with most Sunnis--and not by requiring them to come begging to him.

Seems it's very good thing that you are far from the levers of power.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:08 PM

>>, but it took the US military about twenty years to get over Vietnam, and that was with a conscript Army. Follow Obama's lead with regard to Iraq and the "professional" Armed Forces of the USA will never trust another administration.

They'll get over it in five minutes. They'll place the blame where it belongs, on Bush and Cheney.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:43 PM

You are living in a dream world, T...

There were lots of military folks who said "No" to invading Iraq way back in '02... The trust is lost because of Bush...

You folks are a scream... You spent 6 years blamin' all of Bush's mstakes on Clinton and now we are down to you guys blaming his current mistakes on Obama...

Do you folks ever admit that it is possioble that yer guy, BUsh, screwed up all by himself???

(What a rediculous question, Boberdz...)

Oh yeah, I forgot for one minute that you folks have the ability to think independently... My bad...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:09 PM

"There are a bout twenty thousand more now than when the "surge" began. So obviously they got that wrong."

Well let's take that one first. Easily explained as some units rotating into Iraq are larger than those formations that they are replacing. That rational enough for you?

"Teribus. You are claiming that the surge worked."

Yes it most assuredly did, please provide me with any evidence to the contrary.

"If the surge was not supposed to end the war, what was the point?"

This coupled with the following shows that you are either extremely naive or have the attention span of Goldfish:

"You and the other Bush worshipers have been saying "when conditions permit." for five years. It doesn't mean anything."

Eh No Jack "The Surge" was not supposed to end the war. And "when conditions permit" means exactly what it says. Get out of thinking that what your country is engaged in is some sort of reality TV show, it isn't. While the USA was getting its ass kicked in Vietnam the UK actually defeated a communist inspired and backed insurrection in Malaya, Oman and in Borneo. That took time Jack the Sailor and the UK withdrew "when conditions permitted". In the case of Malaya that was after seventeen years.

By the Bye Jack the Sailor, I know that you are Canadian, but it took the US military about twenty years to get over Vietnam, and that was with a conscript Army. Follow Obama's lead with regard to Iraq and the "professional" Armed Forces of the USA will never trust another administration.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:28 PM

You can read the article Doug. So can anyone who wishes to read it. But it is plain to see that it not up to the standards of the New York Times. But McCain's attack on Obama, which contains nothing new and no viewpoint other than "Obama is bad", is available on the Drudge website, where it belongs.

Doug, I am not interested in those phony wars. I'm interested in the real shooting war in the middle east and and getting us out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 02:28 PM

JTS: The purpose of the surge was NOT to end the war. It was designed to drastically reduce the violence with the hope that the Iraqi Parliament would get better organized and that the Sunnis might join Iraqi and coalition forces against al-Qaida. The surge was successful and the Iraqi Parliament has met all but three of the 18 original benchmarks set by the U.S. Congress last year to measure security, political and economic progress. The fact that the Sunnis turning against al-Qaida contributed greatly to the success of the surge is history.

The Arizona Republic, in it's Thursday edition, carried the New York Times Op-Ed written by Obama last week, and today the one they rejected written by Senator McCain. It's too bad the "Times" chose to show it's true colors (left-wing)and rejected McCain's article. It deserves to be read by anyone who wishes to read it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: pdq
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 02:11 PM

"Now tell us. What defines a victory in Iraq?" ~ JtS

Well, perhaps we can all try that one after you answer the following questions:

                What defines a victory in the "War on Drugs"?

                What defines a victory in the "War on Terrorism"?
      
                What defines a victory in the "War on Crime"?   

                What defines a victory in the "War on Poverty"?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM

You won't get a definition of victory from any of these folks, JtS, other and some generalized definition that allows them to claim victory when they feel like it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

The strategy of taking the ground and holding it have made some difference. But obviously the two largest factions, the Sunnis and the Sadr army, deciding not to fight made a much much larger difference.

Coincidental with the "surge" was the idea that the US would leave if things became peaceful. Remember the loss of Congress by the war party in 2006? The Iraqis could read the writing on the wall. To say the least it is difficult to sort out the influence of "the surge" from other factors. It is also impossible to claim that there has been any real progress until the militias have been disarmed.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:40 AM

There are a bout twenty thousand more now than when the "surge" began. So obviously they got that wrong.

Teribus. You are claiming that the surge worked. If the surge was not supposed to end the war, what was the point? You and the other Bush worshipers have been saying "when conditions permit." for five years. It doesn't mean anything.

Now tell us. What defines a victory in Iraq? What would satisfy you? How can it be accomplished?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:36 AM

And, BTW, what surge other than money...

Troop levels have been at the same level before "The Dumb Surge" (TDS) and things were a mess so don't give me this crap that the TDS has been this great miliatry accomplishment when it hasn't... The TDS has been a business deal and nothin' more and as long as the US taxpayers are willing to funnel their tax dollars to Iraqi thugs thru the TDS then this little arrangement will hold up... But tell the thugs to get off their butts and get a job and the TDS will go down faster than a whale's turd in the ocean...

And you can take that to the bank...

(No, Bobert, bad idea... The banks are crappin' out faster than you can count 'um... Probably safer just "stayin' the course" for another 100 years and let the Iraqis spend our money...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:34 AM

According to CNN "The Surge" troops are already all home. General Petraeus and GWB have already stated that there will be a draw down of US troops depending upon conditions on the ground and recommendations of field commanders.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:28 AM

Be a man Teribus. Don't just say other people are wrong. Stand for something. tell us what is right.

If the surge is a success or troops can come home now. Right?

If no when can they come home? Tell us what victory would look like over there.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

"The US generals were, rightly, concerned about fighting two "wars" at the same time and their fears turned out to be justified."

What fears were they? That they were going to gain the upperhand and initiative in both?

Afghanistan:
The number of foreign troops allowed into Afghanistan was controlled not by the USA, or by the UN, but by the Interim Afghan Government led by Hamid Karzai and the Loya Girga of tribal leaders. The first "foreign troops" to arrive in any sort of numbers were Royal Marines Commandos of the Special Boat Service and "Bravo" and "Charlie" Companies from 40 Commando, permission for them to land at Bagram Air Base was granted by the Afghan delegates to a summit conference held at Königswinter in Germany. Their mission was to make the Base secure so that Hamid Karzai and the members of the Interim Goverment could return to Afghanistan. Additional negotiations had to be undertaken to allow the men of 40 Commando to make sure that the route in from the Air Base to Kabul was secure. Later the Commandos were joined by detatchments of troops from US 10th Mountain Division and 82nd Airborne

Iraq:
Numbers on the ground would not have mattered a damn in Iraq in the initial period after Saddam's forces had been defeated.

Numbers on the ground would not have prevented the mass desertion of the Iraqi Armed Forces and Republican Guards/Special Republican Guard Units.

Numbers on the ground would not have swayed the decision by Arab Sunni religious and tribal leaders to boycott the political process that resulted in the formation of the Interim Government of Iraq.

Numbers on the ground would not have swayed the decision by Arab Sunni religious and tribal leaders to initially support the foreign Jihadists and Ba'athist insurgents.

Numbers on the ground would not have prevented but might possibly have accelerated Zarqawi's attacks on Iraqi Shia civilians. Zarqawi and the Ba'athist insurgents discovered at Fallujah that they could not take on US/MNF troops in provinces like Anbar and win.

Numbers on the ground would not necessarily have accelerated training of Iraqi Army and Police Units in any significant way and may well have diluted the impression on the local population that Iraqi Forces were in the forefront of the efforts being made to quell Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq, the Ba'athist insurgents and the Shia militias.

Numbers on the ground would not have accelerated the realisation on the part of Arab Sunni religious and tribal leaders that their best interests would be served by joining the political process.

Once that realisation dawned then and only then could the US/MNF troops assisted by newly formed Iraqi Army and Police Units start hitting "hot spots" - That was "The Surge" - And it worked remarkably well.

"The "Surge" wouldn't have been and wouldn't BE needed if enough force was used in the first place...as the military told the US President before anyone went into Iraq."

The military said no such thing, some retired generals might have said that, but General Tommy Franks was specifically asked very early on if he had sufficient troops and he answered in the affirmative. As he was the man in command anything said by anybody else is purely subjective opinion and irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:42 AM

Teribus,

While you are bringing up tripe, which part do you not agree with?

You don't think McSame wants peace?
You don't think that they want Iraq to be against iran?

Give us a real laugh. Define "victory" over there that does not include both of those things.

Give us a bigger laugh. Tell us how it could possible be accomplished.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:02 AM

The "Surge" wouldn't have been and wouldn't BE needed if enough force was used in the first place...as the military told the US President before anyone went into Iraq. The US generals were, rightly, concerned about fighting two "wars" at the same time and their fears turned out to be justified.

You can argue historical "what-ifs" all you want, but we live and deal with the here-and-now.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 02:33 AM

"The surge can't be said to have succeeded until the Iraqi government is a peaceful ally against Iran."

Where on earthe did you get that tripe from Jack the Sailor? Did you just make it up? Because I most certainly have now heard, or read anything remotely like that. But no matter, you will no doubt, from this point forward, quote it as being the fact that it isn't just because it suits your purpose.

Most I suppose will skip over Kent Davis post, after all we don't want actual facts too interfere with such dearly held myths.

For all the Obama-mania folks, "The Surge" in Iraq was so effective he apparently wishes to propose more of the same in Afghanistan. Let's hear how and why that won't work there.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Kent Davis
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:23 AM

In February, 2007, there were an estimated 3,014 deaths among Iraqi security forces and civilians. In May, 2007, there were 1,980. In June, 2008, there were 450. In July, so far, 282.

In February, 2007, there were 81 deaths among the U.S. military in Iraq. In May, 2007, there were 126. In June, 2008, there were 29. In July, so far, 12.

From iCasualties http://icasualties.org/oif/Default.aspx

Kent Davis

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:23 PM

"...additional US forces were needed". Not established. Al-Qaeda's stupidity and Petraeus' intelligence--especially in rejecting Teribus' idea that the Iraqi Sunnis deserved nothing--they were like Nazis at the end of World War II--were enough in themselves--especially combined with Petraeus' realization that he had to get the US forces out of their heavily fortified comfort zones--to actually fight side by side with Iraqis.

I realize I was wrong in saying that Maliki had not taken over in November 2006. He took over earlier in the year.   It doesn't bother me to admit my errors.

Some people however, prefer lashing themselves to the mast of a sinking ship, rather than admit error. Case in point: the delightful discussion we had about the Bush Iraq propaganda campaign. As I recall the same poster who sees the Sunnis as 5th columnists went down with his ship, still protesting there was no propaganda campaign.

So sorry, Teribus, that you don't like your words quoted.   By the way, quoting you is not "putting words into your mouth". Perhaps you want to review the meaning of that rather simple English expression.

But there is an option, if you don't really like your words repeated to you. All you have to do actually proofread your contributions, and decide if you really are saying what you want to. And possibly even think--before hitting send.

You don't need to thank me. I'm happy to offer advice, and I hope you take it in the spirit it was intended.

As always, looking forward to your next calm, well-reasoned posting.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:02 PM

Teribus,

The surge can't be said to have succeeded until the Iraqi government is a peaceful ally against Iran. That's the Bush/McCain definition of victory over there. When it happens, feel free to gloat. Until then, you are just blowing smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:14 PM

Sorry, but I can no longer resist:

The war it is over, the surge has succeeded
Al Qaida is covered with sadness and gloom,
They were defeated and miserably treated
And Sidi al-Masir is awaiting his doom.

To the tune of "Bold Robert Emmett"....

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:09 PM

Yes, the surge of American tax dollars to pay people not to shoot at Us has indded worked... Problem is that it is bankrupting the US Treasury... How many thugs are there out there who want on Unclle Sam's payroll not to shoot at US???

This is the dumbest thing that has ever occured in our history and it sets a very bad precedence... Purdy soon we'll be payin' our own people not to shoot at US... Then it will be the little old ladies who volunteer at the local hospital... And the Boy Scouts... And, and...

This is such a load of crap it isn't hardly worth discussin'...

T... You outta be ashamed of yerself...

Oh, I forgot... You aren't an American taxpayer... Well, I am and I hate the fact that I work hard to pay these friggin' taxes which are in turn turned over to aq bunch of Iraqi thugs... Screw them... Let them got out and work half as hard as I work... We have done nothin' but establish a new Iraqi "welfare class"...

No, we ain't got no money for our own poor but, by golly, we gotta give my tax dollars to Iraqi mobsters????

Beam my ass up, Scotty... There is no intellegent life left here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:51 PM

The German surge worked when the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto rose too, Teribus. To paraphrase what you said, "Additional forces were required, they were supplied and the desired result was obtained." (from the German point of view) So "let's give credit where credit is due", right?

The only question is, who was really the injured party in that circumstance? (obviously the Jews were) Who is the injured party in the invasion and occupation of Iraq? (the people of Iraq are) How you see that, though, for most persons, depends strictly on where their instinctive loyalties lie. Most persons never think beyond their instinctive loyalties which they have inherited through birth and cultural background, and those loyalties are usually based on national identity, party membership, or religion.

All people in a war are "the good guys" from their own point of view, whatever it may be. Depending on how many others involved in the conflict see it their way, they will either win or lose their cause in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:32 PM

Oddly enough Jack the Sailor the post regarding the Sunni Arabs being perceived as the Nazi's were after the Second World War was a direct reply in the same thread to a post by Guest petr, who had no problem at all with the point that I was trying to make - In fact he actually commented upon it as did Wolfgang, as did MGOH. Only Ron Davies took it up and has been waving it as a flag ever since.

Without any shadow of a doubt "The Surge" has succeeded. I do not give a flying fuck if people wish to attribute it to Al-Sadr, or Sunni Tribal Leaders or whatever. That is all purely conjecture, the fact of the matter is that additional US forces were required, they were supplied and desired result was obtained - That folks was "The Surge" and it damn well worked, be honest enough to admit it, every statistic available supports that, please be honest enough to give credit where credit is due.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Mike789
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:32 PM

Folks, I came across this unbiased analysis of the Surge today. It is comprehenive and enlightening. Enjoy.

http://themoderatevoice.com/at-tmv/newsweek-blogitics/21211/what-mccain-gets-wrong-about-the-surge-and-iraq/

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

JTS: You don't understand what Teribus wrote? Seems pretty clear to me, JTS. It's in English. You do read English, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:11 PM

Dear Rig

Storage facilities for Corporate Clients is doing very well in this economy. Up 20%

It seems what they can't sell they put in storage.