BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:28 PM

I don't think so biLL.

I think that Obama wants to destroy Al Qaeda and clean up Afghanistan and the western tribal regions of Pakistan so that these regions will not be a safe haven for terrorists planning to attack the United States.

I believe this because he has been saying so since 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM

"As Mr. Obama correctly asserted in an Op-Ed article in The Times on Monday and in a speech on Tuesday, those countries, not Iraq, are the real frontline of the war against terrorism."

Still buying the old terrorist paranoia bit .... I dunno .... surge II is the same as surge I ... bottom line it is in all the US interest to control the mideast (bottom line) ... to have presence (occupy), is to have control.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

Doug,

It is idiotic to think that a tour of a secure airbase or two or as stroll through an empty market with a few hundred armed guards will provide any useful information about the war zones. That's as bout as useful as flying over Katrina in Air Force One.

You have to stop parroting these guys, because if you don't, when they say stupid things, you say stubid things.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

DougR:

It should be obvious that Obama is not most folks. He's a bit smarter than the average bear.

Now I notice when he announced he woudl be revising his plans based on feedback from commanders on the ground when he visits IRaq, your gang called him a flipflopper. The same stupid slur you used on Kerry, a meaningless black mark without any substance.

Anyone with more than two brain cells will update their plans against new data and will revise their tactics to fulfill their strategies and purposes.

"Until this week, when Senator Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee, offered a sensible and comprehensive blueprint for dealing with the mess that President Bush created by bungling the war of necessity against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, which could have made Americans safer, and starting a war of choice in Iraq, which made the world more insecure.

Mr. Obama's Republican rival, Senator John McCain, is no longer able to ignore the situation on the Afghan-Pakistan border, where Al Qaeda and the Taliban — the true threats to American security — are resurgent. But he has not matched Mr. Obama's seriousness on Iraq. Mr. McCain is still tied in knots, largely adopting Mr. Bush's blind defense of an unending conflict.

Mr. Obama has a better grasp of the big picture, despite Mr. McCain's claim to more foreign policy experience. For far too long, Mr. Bush's preoccupation with his misadventure in Iraq — which fostered a presence for Al Qaeda where there was none — has dangerously diverted precious manpower, resources and high-level attention from Afghanistan and Pakistan. As Mr. Obama correctly asserted in an Op-Ed article in The Times on Monday and in a speech on Tuesday, those countries, not Iraq, are the real frontline of the war against terrorism." (NYT Editorial().


A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

Unlike Bush, who, when presented with opinions from his commanders on the ground that he didn't like, fired them or persuaded them to retire, instead of heeding what they had to say. Which is why the war has lasted for five years and cost the lives of several thousand US service men and women, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians (and billions of tax payer dollars).

The commanders on the ground who remain are the ones who have passed the test of only having opinions that are endorsed by the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:48 PM

Yes, "6", he did.

Amos: most folks, before they announce a superdooper plan to end the war in Iraq, would talk to the commanders on the ground, perhaps even visit Iraq to see for themselves whether or not the surge worked. Not your candidate, apparently he doesn't want to be confused by facts, just announce a plan based on his own "superlative" experience.

No doubt AFTER he tours Iraq, for the second time, and Afghanistan for the FIRST time, he MIGHT have a better grip on what is going on over there. He might even "revise" his announced plan. After all, he has already greased such a possibility in a speech he made a week or so ago. With the three major TV network anchors in tow, Senator Obama will have an opportunity to slant the visit any way he chooses with blessings from the major networks.

There is still a lot of work to do in Iraq.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:47 PM

Surge II endorsed by the democrats ...

surge II


I guess things will still stay the same regardless who wins the November election.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

You know what has happened in Iraq? A local despot (Saddam) who killed and terrorized many people but ran things reasonably well has been replaced by the armies of a foreign despot (Uncle Sam) who kills even more people, terrorizes the entire region, doesn't run things well at all, and also has wrecked pretty well the entire nation while doing so. Guess how much the average Iraqi likes that...

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM

Wasn't Obama saying yesterday he would shift a few more brigades from Iraq into the Afgani .... Surge II ?

please correct me if I'm wrong.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

ALl this rap by dittoheads about how successful the surge was ignores a couple of important facts in play, even without talking about Afghanistan.

One is that the success of the surge is equally attributable to the constraints on insurgency imposed by Muqtya Al Sadr, without which we would have seen more blood and death than previously, instead of less.

Another is that the kind of superiorforce we have used to quell some of the uinsurgency is not the kind of military victory which actually resolves the well-springs of hatred and murderous intent on the part of the insurgents. I suspect to the contrary there will be a long-smoldering undercurrent of resentment against American influence as long as we are sitting in place there, and our so-called embassy looms over the city skyline fatrter than any of Saddams notorious pleasure palaces.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

He knows how to win wars!

He knows how to win wars!

John McCain IS...

The Surge Protector!

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 12:27 PM

Of course you are right Little Hawk. In this case, it looks like Al Qaeda has shifted its main front back to Afghanistan. If we leave fat juicy brigades in Iraq, we are just inviting them to restart the insurgency there once they start to lose ground to

"Surge II, Afghanistan!"

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

In a guerrilla war against foreign armies of occupation one does not have to win a single battle...one just has to keep on fighting until the foreigners leave. Hit them where they are weakest, avoid them where they are strong. Keep moving around to where they are weakest and keep fighting. Make life hell for them until they finally leave. It may take a generation. It may take 3 generations. No matter. One keeps on fighting until the foreigners leave. The Vietnamese did this against the French, the Japanese, the French again, and then the Americans...until the foreign occupying forces left Vietnam. The Afghans have always drive out foreign occupiers eventually, and they will again. Ditto for the Iraqis.

One day the Americans and other foreign troops will ignominiously leave Iraq and Afghanistan. It will not be the day of their victory.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

Before anyone gets too relaxed - as with Viet Nam this war is unwinnable unless we decide to use nuclear (nucular for the spelling challenged) weapons and wipe Iraq off the face of the earth (which might just create another war...) We will leave a mess behind us no matter who is president when it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

Teribus,

You seem tense and testy. Don't worry. Just relax and enjoy the peace dividend. We are in good hands with McCain. He knows how to win wars! I heard him say so. On Fox News!!

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM

Oops. "won" victory

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:21 AM

We one VICTORY! What else is there?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:15 AM

Something about non-existent Weapons of Mass Destruction and bringing a better life to all those thousands of people we maimed, killed, orphaned, bombed, etc., I think.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

OK, we won - now can anyone tell me exactly what 'we' have won, and why did 'we' go there in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

T:

Funny=--- the major editorials I have read consider Barack's op ed on Iraq strategy and Afghanistan and related issues, consider his planning to be far superior to that of McCain and far preferable to the ghastly rigor mortis of the Bush administration.

A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

In the following I take it that Jack the Sailor is wittering on about Iraq:

"The surge has succeeded!" - Yes it has hasn't it.

"Bush and McCain just said so!" - Yes they have haven't they, and so did quite a number of other people, the vast majority of them being Iraqis and I would tend to think that they knew at first hand exactly what they are talking about, wouldn't you Jack?

"The surge is over!" - Yep, all over bar the shouting, some minor mopping up left, but yes I'd say it was pretty much over.

"We only have 18,000 more troops there now than before it started!" - Now let's see if we are talking about "The Surge" here, that involved the sudden introduction into theatre of five brigades, some 30,000 additional troops. In the event this increase in troop levels was achieved over a few months and was completed by August last year. So if what Jack the Sailor is saying is correct that means that there has been a draw down of 12,000 troops since "The Surge" was completed - That correct Jack? I also believe that there will be quite a number home before long Jack which will have absolutely nothing to do with that clown Obama.

"Woo hooo!" - Whatever floats your boat JtS

"The government there is still unstable and unreconciled." - You mean the same as in quite a number of states JtS (Neither your own or mine are particularly flavour of the month according to the media)

"The Kurds have left the government." - Have they? Oh what a pity, they were bringing the dessert.

"No problem!!" - If you say so Jack

"We've won We've won!" - This comes from where Jack? - You?

"McCain sure knows how to win a war!" - If you say so Jack, I do agree he most certainly has more of an idea than Barak Obama, whose latest pronouncements, based upon what the Iraq Prime Minister did not say, could accurately be described as confused, ill-considered, contradictory, meaningless waffle. And absolutely no-one in the MSM is taking him to task on it - they obviously sense a better story down the line when he really screws everything up.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: MarkS
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 12:25 AM

So if the war is over now, lets go home and call it a victory.
No sense staying there in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

Vets for Freedom are even saying it!

Subject: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:25 PM

The surge has succeeded!

Bush and McCain just said so!

The surge is over!

We only have 18,000 more troops there now than before it started!

Woo hooo!

The government there is still unstable and unreconciled.

The Kurds have left the government.

No problem!!

We've won We've won!

McCain sure knows how to win a war!

Life is so much easier if I only watch Fox News!