BS: Another reincarnation story.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:07 PM

Bill - No, you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 08:06 PM

Yep -- I have already written your refund check in case I am wrong! :)

And there are schools of thought that hold that consciousness is an illusion but the problem is, an illusion to WHOM? If consciousness is an illusion, then how would I know when I die? Conceivably, my consciousness would have no reason but to continue deluding me as it always has. In fact, I could be dead already, we all could. In fact, the universe could have already ended. Then again, none of these things really existed anyway since consciousness is an illusion.

The start of your algorithm is elegant to the max, AR. But the answer to "to Whom?" and "my consciousness" are identical. The whom is Thou, the consciousness is thou, the awareness of your mourners and the celebration of your release will also be Thou. Building from the bottom up--arguing that conscious is disproven by matter-- is a logical error of confusing the product with the cause, the receipt-point with the origin-point, the WHat with the WHo.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM

"A moment will come when....."

and if it DON'T come, do I get my quarter back?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:35 PM

>>>...a consummation devoutly to be wished. I've seen what this world can offer. I'm not all that impressed. Though it is quite interesting here, and sometimes very pleasurable...if I thought that this physical life here was all there is, I'd probably pull the plug right now without further hesitation. (knowing that I wouldn't be around afterward to deal with any possible repercussions...)<<<<

Right. Even then, the idea that death extinguishes consciousness basically turns consciousness into a kind of illusion. And there are schools of thought that hold that consciousness is an illusion but the problem is, an illusion to WHOM? If consciousness is an illusion, then how would I know when I die? Conceivably, my consciousness would have no reason but to continue deluding me as it always has. In fact, I could be dead already, we all could. In fact, the universe could have already ended. Then again, none of these things really existed anyway since consciousness is an illusion.

But when you get right down to it, the same is true of consciousness being eternal. Odd, isn't it? Whether consciousness is extinguished by death or eternal, there is no difference between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:33 PM

"A philosopher stepped forward:
Master, is not a stone like a macrocosm, like an olive pit?
Recondite, willing to give but little of itself?
Master, a stone may lie in a riverbed for an eon, giving nothing, observing all, wearing smooth, dwindling, slowly diminishing, until at last - nothing.
   But where is the stone of eons past?
   In what context does it still exist?
   Its atoms have spread across the seas.
   Is it a stone still, Master, or is it a part of us all?

The Master replied:
Do you have a question to ask, or do you want to make a speech?"

       "The Profit"
            Kehlog Albran

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:33 PM

There ya go, Bill. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:27 PM

What merits attention, Sir, is not the sayer but the thing said. However, no need to stir yourself unduly; a moment will come when all this becomes vivid.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:23 PM

well, that oughta settle it! If ol' Kahlil said it, who am I to doubt!

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:11 PM

"after the soul's liberation from the world of substance."

...a consummation devoutly to be wished. I've seen what this world can offer. I'm not all that impressed. Though it is quite interesting here, and sometimes very pleasurable...if I thought that this physical life here was all there is, I'd probably pull the plug right now without further hesitation. (knowing that I wouldn't be around afterward to deal with any possible repercussions...)

As it stands, though, I figure I would not be making any kind of quick escape by so doing, but rather increasing the future work load by a considerable margin.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 06:08 PM

Imagination finds a road to the realm of the gods,
and there man can glimpse that which is to be
after the soul's liberation from the world of substance.

                        Kahlil Gibran

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 05:49 PM

>>Extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof, and very careful investigations. As far as I know, no properly investigated reincarnation case has stood up to careful examination. And really, investigations by true believers don't count. They don't want to disprove it.<<

In this case, what is an extraordinary claim? Is it more or less extraordinary to claim that when you die you're just gone--like you never existed?

In these types of discussions, proof isn't required although it certainly helps. What you need is a good, logical argument pro or con.

Personally, I think there is some form of reincarnation but beyond that I do not and cannot speculate.

Consciousness consists of the perception of external stimuli and the memories of them and the fact that you can choose to remember events infinitely theoretically. Unconsciousness or non-consciousness is a state where nothing is experienced, nothing remembered (I'm not talking about dreaming--I am talking true, complete unconsciousness). Not even the passage of time can be remembered. So if you went unconscious for exactly an hour while looking at the clock, it would seem to you that the clock simply jumped forward an hour instananeously. Missing time--as the abductees say.

In fact, you cannot remember being unconscious.

Now suppose you die at X--a point in the future--and death actually extinguished consciousness. Your life simply becomes missing time. It's no different than if you suddenly got complete, total amnesia at age 50 and forgot everything and became like a newborn. What do you remember of the first 50 years? Nothing. Your life becomes missing time, unconsciousness. Yet, during your life you experienced and you recalled your experiences and could recall events as many times as you wanted. So you were conscious. CONTRADICTION. The conclusion is that death does not extinguish consciousness. IOW, consciousness is eternal.

But heaven or hell is not practical because you can't recall events the same way which means your consciousness is altered and consciousness cannot be altered. Your experiences and they way you perceived them are what make you a unique personality. If it changes at all, you would not be you anymore. If heaven was this place where I go after I die and feel no more pain then I cannot recall any of my painful experiences. CONTRADICTION. Heaven or hell would alter my consciousness which cannot happen. So there there is no heaven or hell. You must relive your experiences and sensations the way you always have and must be able to remember and relive them infinitely theoretically. If you are ever prevented from doing so, your consciousness is altered.

The conclusion is, we must come back here. We must become incarnate again. What if the earth is destroyed? Then we wait. How long? What difference does it make? We have all eternity to wait. What happens in the mean time? I don't know. What about god, is there one? I don't know. Are we stuck forever being born and then dying again (samsara)? I don't know. Is there a nirvana--a breaking of the samsaric cycle? I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM

No it's not, it's simply a FUNCTION of those electro-chemical interactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:30 PM

Bill:

No; a human being is not a Turing machine, no matter how you slice it and dice it. Understanding is an order of magnitude different in quality from all the complex interactions electro-chemistry can muster.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:16 PM

neurons gots plenty of "sourcehood", Amos, when they are stirred up in funny ways by various inputs..*grin*

(it's a lot simpler than positing an "I know not what, but I'll give it some names" that existed... ummmm...before anything existed)

talk about "confusing receiver with author"....how about confusing linguistic constructs with 'objective reality'?

(if God was in them tabs, bobad, he sure had a weird sense of humor about what I oughta see!)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:06 PM

A lot of what that guy "saw" was the same as was "seen" by many people, myself included, upon the ingestion of various pharmaceuticlals back in "those" days.

Of course it is possible god was in those tabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

Nae doot, amigo! :D

But the idea of attributing "sourcehood", to coin a term, to a bunch of neurons, strikes me as pretty far-fetched.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM

I think we're tuned into different frequencies, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 12:13 PM

That's kinda like being awestruck by a radio's endless ability to invent stories and songs, bobad....it is wise not to confuse the receiver with the author....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:58 AM

Ah the human brain and the things it is capable of - the marvel never ceases to amaze.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM

I guess I'd better start believing ...I see this thread has been reincarnated and come back as a 'guest' with a moving story to tell..

Is that YOU, Thomas Sawyer?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 09:34 AM

NDE & reincarnation

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:30 PM

Re: animals and consciousness... my perspective is that all of creation is conscious, and that each created thing is a tiny spark of divinity. I think that with humans, we have the ability to fool ourselves into thinking that we're separate from the rest of creation (and to cover up our divinity, or at least our awareness of it), and that is what accounts for the behavior that makes us appear to be of a more base nature sometimes than treefrogs (to use the example given earlier). But I also see purpose in everything that happens, and for me, that's an important thing to keep in mind as events appear to unfold in the world.
-----

Could not agree more Carol. Everything has a spark of divinity in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:49 PM

I would submit that the greatest favor one human could do for another is to train them in the recognition of the common distortions of logic:

a. Falsification of data
b. Misestimation of importances
c. Altering the sequence of events
d. Asserting logical conclusions that are not logical
e. Falsifying the time of events.
f. Inserting irrelevant information.
g. Omitting relevant information to distort conclusions
h. Claiming similarities where there are differences, or insisting on differences where there are similarities.
i. Claiming that things are identical which are not.
j. Claiming things are different which are identical.

There are probably a few more but those are the main ones I can think of. If a person's analytical skills were sharpened up to the point where he was never fooled by these distortions when presented by PR artists or advertisers or other liars, he would be a stronger, clearer-minded person.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:06 PM

I agree with CarolC's comments rather than Two bear's summation if only because I recognize the fallacy in not judging other creations by our own.

The ant's world, for example, may be as 'intelligent' as ours, to THEM. And it COULD be that our human world and its accomplishments is no more significant than is the bug that is dug deep into the earth for 17 years then comes out, mates, lays eggs and dies. The urge is to procreate and persevere.

Not that I actually believe this. After all, I too am human.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:53 AM

Would we be as quick to de-humanise/torture/abuse, our fellow human being in general (supposed enemy combatants, or not), if we felt them to be our brothers and sisters.

One would hope not.

Unfortunately, people's minds can culturally influenced, "trained" via "logical reasoning" (however faulty or biased that "reasoning" may be) to override the heart's natural compassionate and empathic responses, at least temporarily. Military training is one obvious example of this, political propoganda to justify war is another.

Even the most compassionate people with the sincerest intention and desire to help others can be deluded by psychological manipulation, via regular "doses" of propoganda.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:53 AM

Thanks Amos ;-)

I understand what you're saying, Wolfgang.

Re: animals and consciousness... my perspective is that all of creation is conscious, and that each created thing is a tiny spark of divinity. I think that with humans, we have the ability to fool ourselves into thinking that we're separate from the rest of creation (and to cover up our divinity, or at least our awareness of it), and that is what accounts for the behavior that makes us appear to be of a more base nature sometimes than treefrogs (to use the example given earlier). But I also see purpose in everything that happens, and for me, that's an important thing to keep in mind as events appear to unfold in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 04 - 10:31 PM

Oh, indeed I do, Jim. No question.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 09 May 04 - 09:54 PM

"No one can pass that test of the literal word with perfect marks"

I would expect people to last longer than ten minutes, though, Little Hawk.

However, what I said to Amos is still my position: Would we be as quick to de-humanise/torture/abuse, our fellow human being in general (supposed enemy combatants, or not), if we felt them to be our brothers and sisters.

I'm certain you can appreciate the concept.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 04 - 09:05 PM

Excellent comments, Wolfgang.

Jim - If Two Bears seems to you to have shown an inconsistency in his statements, he would be sitting right in the same boat with all the rest of us fallible humans. We all make seemingly inconsistent statements from time to time...if you add up every word we've ever said and draw comparisons between them. We all unconsciously contradict ourselves from time to time. This is one reason why it's hell to be a politician, and be brought to account for every public word you have ever uttered. No one can pass that test of the literal word with perfect marks...not even great prophets like Jesus. They all appear to contradict themselves if you take their words out of context...but if you study the whole nature of the person you can soon understand the basis of his philosophy.

The thing is, you've got to look at each statement a person makes in the context in which he made it. Two Bears does not categorize Iraqis in general as "bad people", nor does he categorize any nation in such a fashion. I can assure you of that. I know him.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 May 04 - 05:37 AM

I guess everyone picks and chooses what they're willing to be open-minded about. It also requires a bit of open-mindedness to consider the possibility that OBE are exactly that... experiences in which the consciousness is not in the body. (Carol)

Carol, you go there really to the heart of the matter, the very reason I came posting to this thread in my first post. When you peruse this and similar threads you will never find that I only follow one hypothesis or ever claim to know for sure what the correct theory is. What has bothered me here from the very beginning (and in other threads as well) are people who follow only one interpretation and have the hubris to claim that they know for sure. That's why I cited Kendall's good thought and cited who it was here to claim certain knowledge instead of uncertain interpretation.

If people here posted that they had this or that experience and their interpretation was that..., I would not have posted my first post and not this one. I have no problems at all with people coming to a different interpretation.

The 'experiences in which the consciousness is not in the body' is nothing I have any problems with. In most of my dreams my center of consciousness is not in the body (often I see myself in a bird perspective). That the 'I' of personal experience in the awake person is usually behind the 'eye' (or somewhere below but mostly within the confines of the body) makes a lot of sense, for motor control is much more easy that way. But the point of the subjective 'I' can shift (by several methods and exercises). I can easily (well, not that easy with open eyes) transfer my 'I' in thought to a point where my body is not (phantasies, daydreaming, etc). The experience part is open to me too. Only the interpretation of that experience that's where I differ.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 09 May 04 - 12:48 AM

Sorry, Amos.

I was just asking Two bears to comment on an inconsistency in a position he took in another thread, earlier on this evening.
I understand it may have appeared to be a cross-post, but the underlying point I was asking him about, would have been interesting, I think, were the aspect of reincarnation been brought into it.
I had never looked at the situation that way before, myself, and I thought Two bears had reconciled himself to the quandry.
I wished to see what his solution would have been.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 04 - 12:34 AM

Say, Jim,

What is the point you're making here? I don't seem to be getting it...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:36 PM

What if your brother or sister was reincarnated as an Iraqi?

Would that be off topic?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:34 PM

But not Iraqis
---

   Jim:

   I have no problem with Iraqis.

   I DO have a problem with the terrorists that murder inocent
   civilians of ANY nation.

   Your comment, and the above reply is off topic for this thread; so
   I will not post further on this subject in this thread.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:21 PM

"I consider all birds, animals, insects as little brothers and sisters"

But not Iraqis

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:13 PM

Two bears, can we be certain that they are not our big brothers and sisters?
-----

Absolutely! Human beings are unique in our ability to speak, and reasoning ability.

Animals use instincts unless they are taught to imitate language such as parrots, etc.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:52 PM

Two bears, can we be certain that they are not our big brothers and sisters?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:18 PM

Another theory I've come across a few times in my studies is that while some people are truly "Earth souls" (meaning all previous incarnations - be they mineral, vegetable, animal or human - were on this planet), others originated elsewhere.   

Apparently homo sapiens were so disappointingly slow to develop during the first several millenia of existence that the "higher powers" finally petitioned certain of our "neighbors" to come help out. These "advanced" beings, for karmic reasons of their own, agreed to incarnate in human form here, to teach and assist us in "raising" and developing our consciousness.    One source says that the first two "waves" of these more evolved souls simply gave up and left, discouraged and disgusted by our "crude and vile forms" and behaviors. (hee hee -- sorry, that tickles my funny bone a bit)

But the third "wave" met with more success. And thus began civilization as we know it today.

Hmm. If the theory is correct, I wonder if we (and the rest of the planet) weren't much better off when we were still "crude, vile and unevolved".

;-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:41 PM

To this day when a raven speaks to me, I greet him as Brother.
-----

I consider all birds, animals, insects as little brothers and sisters.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:58 PM

I have had special memories and visions related to hawk-nature. If I needed a particular icon to explain myself, I'd use a hawk as soon as any.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:42 PM

When the young man I mentioned above, died, there were a number of oddities involving ravens the first few days and weeks.

* The first one was when the body was found- he'd been missing on the mountain for four days- quiet, watching ravens were sitting all around in the trees surrounding where the body lay. There had been NO assault on the body, although that is standard. (Keep in mind that this is Alaska and here Mother Nature claims many for her own.)

* When the party notified the other groups by radio that he had been found they all turned back to base. A raven came from somewhere behind and circled one group that had been especially close to the young man in life then turned and flew back calling melodiously. One of the group said, There goes ___________.

* One person who had been especially close to him was walking on a hard pan road close to town when a raven landed on the roadway ahead of her. He looked at her then strutted back and forth. She spoke to him and he cocked his head and warbled then lifted off and flew away.

* One person drove into a grocery parking lot and before she even stopped the car a raven landed on the hood (bonnet) and walked to the windshield and stared intently on a packet of french fries she had on the dash board. She rolled down the window and laid a fry onto the hood. He backed off until it was laid down then came forward and picked it up and flew away.

* A raven walked through an open door into a small liqor store/newspaper outlet and they had to shoo him out.

* One friend wrote a song about him in which she called him an eagle. Then she had a dream in which he told her, "I'm no eagle! You know I'm a raven." She changed the lyrics immediately.

To this day when a raven speaks to me, I greet him as Brother.

(I would love to think that we have that option. I want to experience the world from above. I just wish we had a clearer view ahead)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:21 PM

Yeah, I seem to relate well to lizards, hawks, and wolves. I think we all have soul connections to certain animal species. If you look at the development of a human foetus it seems to pass through all the evolutionary stages from single-celled creature to sea creature to amphibian to reptile to mammalian to human. We carry in our genes the whole story of life on this planet.

There's more than one way to look at reincarnation. You can look at it from the cellular level, the genetic level, the mental level, or the spiritual level, and they are probably all valid in their own way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 01:43 PM

do we all really believe that humans are closer to angels than tree frogs? ( just as an example)They seem to do less harm and carry themselves with more dignity than most people seem capable of summoning.
-----

42; You missed the point of the Rumi poem.

We are spirits that are learning and growing through multiple forms. I know for a fact that I was a lizard, a Bear, and several other animals, and several lifetimes as a human being over the last 800 years or so.

In my previous life; I died as a U.S. soldier in WWI fighting the enemy in France.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:17 AM

First, I doubt we all believe any one thing in comon. But as to your question...

TREE frogs?

TREE FROGS???

Sorry, pal. A tree frog won't cut it. They have no art in them. They have no pyramids, no hanging gardens, no stabiles and mobiles; they will not heal the sick with their conscious inventions nor cause the stars to shudder with their symphonic inspirations. They have no beautiful Mondrian canvases nor beautiful V-8 engines nor beautiful motorcycles, nor schooners' sails nor space shuttles in them, all kinds of beauty beyond their little domain. Wall hangings, clean sheets, well-turned fountain pens, the tilling of acres in harmonious rows, orchards, farms -- all these are beyond them.   And they will never invent angels to aspire to. Whereas you and we are capable of all this and more. Including the invention of angels.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:28 AM

It's not that, it's the potential we have for getting closer to angels, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: 42
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:25 AM

do we all really believe that humans are closer to angels than tree frogs? ( just as an example)They seem to do less harm and carry themselves with more dignity than most people seem capable of summoning.



j

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:05 AM

Yes I did - and thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:35 PM

And Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much!) for sending me the book as a birthday gift, Two Bears! Among many other wonderful "things" I've received through you over the last year, it's been affirming, inspiring and changing me!
------

You're more than welcome to the books. I am very glad you seem to be enjoying some of them.

Did you get the little book back yet?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:39 PM

And Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much!) for sending me the book as a birthday gift, Two Bears! Among many other wonderful "things" I've received through you over the last year, it's been affirming, inspiring and changing me!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:11 PM

I died as a mineral, and rose a plant,
I died as a plant, and rose again an animal,
I died as an animal, and rose a man.
Why then should I fear to become less by dying?

I shall die once again as a man,
To rise an angel, perfect from head to foot.
Again, when I suffer dissolution as an angel,
I shall become what passes the conception of man.

-----

Aloha nui loa Daylia; my sister.

Very wise words there. Thank you so much for posting the poem.

Mystics like Rumi are not the only ones that believed in the transmigration of spirit in attempt to atain perfection, and return to the source.

The Hawaiian's also believed in the transmigration of spirit.

If anyone is interested in reading my take on Hawaiian mysticism; fo to the following URL HUNA 101

Two Bears