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BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Shambles Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:18 AM It's people (and animals) who are inclined to be vengeful or jealous. Not too sure about animals showing these traits. Sure that may be our interpretation of their actions but this probably says more about us than it does about animals. Is not the concept of illness (especially mental illness) and steps to deal with it, linked forever with religion? Is not 'ill' just another word for 'evil'? Is not disease thought by some to be the body pocessed by 'evil' spirits? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM I was going to suggest in this post that Betsy appears to have a rather (small "g") gnostic approach to spirituality, but if anyone were to do a search on the adjective, they would run across the proper noun (big "G") Gnostic. And I don't have the time or the interest to delve so deeply into the subject to describe why "gnostic" is a generally self-generated benign approach to knowing oneself and one's god through that self-knowledge, but "Gnostic" is a pretty rocky outcrop to find oneself upon in a religious sense. This page has a relatively brief examination of the differences that I perceive but am not going to try to describe myself. As you can guess, I've been doing some poking around in definitions, looking for a snap shot of various religions. I started with "gnostic" and found a goldmine of interesting and scholarly information at Metareligion (this link takes you to the "about us" page). This is the Gnosticism page. Interesting, by the way, how some of these religiously-tinged words have such different meanings. Catholic/cathoic, Gnostic/gnostic. It is easier to look these up in a dictionary than it is on the web, because the fluidity of the links takes you to sites where you have to spend a lot of time determining the spin of the web master before you accept their definitions. In some things, Webster on paper is a real good starting place. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 13 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM Let me say I am astounded at the level of information , views and intelligent debate. I was born and educated a Roman Catholic but rarely go to church now. 25 years ago we didn't christen / baptise our 2 kids mostly because of my views about Organised Religions I have a firm belief in a supreme being - most would say God . In addition to handing out loads of duff times , my God has been generally good to me. He's good to ask why you are getting a duff time - although I've never has an answer !!. He's also good to have around to thank for the good times. It's just that I don't feel the need to be in a church to say thanks or whatever. The idea that you need you need to be in an organised church to say thanks is the bit that defeats me - however, I understand you need somewhere to perform all the rituals , some of which are most strange to say the least. Now I suppose someone is going to ask " Is belief in God / Allah a form of mental illness ? " - I hope not . My unorganised religion is quite a good mental crutch as I stumble through this life of ours. Btw - the kids turned out quite normal souls - both at Uni and never brought an ounce of trouble to our doorstep and my wife and I have never tried to persuade them to be any particular religion. Let them sort THAT one out for themselves - as most of us appeared to have (almost) done - though to varying degrees . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:27 AM Yes, Shambles, well said. People can and do find justification in their organized religions for all sorts of contradictory habits and behaviours. It's most unfortunate. And it is harmful to indoctrinate children in those contradictory sets of beliefs. My own opinion about it at this point is that "God" (meaning what I mean when I say "God", but maybe not what somebody else means....) is not vengeful or jealous. It's people (and animals) who are inclined to be vengeful or jealous. I regard any religious teaching that refers to God as being vengeful or jealous to be a false teaching. I also regard any religious teaching that depicts God as casting people into hell, purgatory, etc, to be a false teaching. All those teachings are a demonstration of people casting "God" in their own image...but making him/her/it bigger and more powerful than they are, that's all! I don't see God in that fashion at all. I arrived at my own understanding of the matter by studying a great variety of religious ideas and separating out the "wheat from the chaff", so to speak. I see plenty of evidence to suggest that man is vengeful, none to suggest that God is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: robomatic Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM Religion - The Awe in which we hold our ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Shambles Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:39 AM Such Is The God You will find, in the finest of gardens Some small place, where the wild flowers grow And you can't train children, like a gardener trains roses You can't thin out, you just reap what you sow Inquisitions and witch-hunts and final solutions Moral pollution, that defeats it's own ends The obvious answer, is it always the best one? It's wise to question, both your foe and your friend The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison The soldier's warning? Just a young man, afraid Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers Such is the god in whose image we're made The body of man, the heart of a woman Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers Such is the God, in whose image we're made Do you join in the song, that everyone's singing? Do you follow the path, just because it's well-trod? Is faith just a way, to avoid hard decisions? For religions are man-made, not made by God The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison The soldier's warning? Just a young man, afraid Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers Such is the god in whose image we're made The body of man, the heart of a woman Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers Such is the God, in whose image we're made Roger Gall 1996 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Shambles Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:20 AM Extreme lack of forgiveness leads back to the initial subject of this thread, mental illness. I used the word unforgivable simply as meaning that it was possibly not a good idea. Double binds - in the religion imposed upon me by the state - like the concept of both a forgiving God and a vengeful one in the same package - are also a potential cause of mental illnes. If you are looking for answers and guidance, in this confusing religion, you can find support and comfort for just about every opposite action. Vengence is mine , said the Lord. It is interesting how some extreme forms of mental illness, here in the West anyway, do involve folk seeing figures from religion, hearing their voices telling them to do things, both good and not so good. They also hear voices from the radio, from aliens and figures in history, but there is usually some aspect of an organised religion involved somewhere along the line. In other parts of the world, these kind of folk tend to become monks, holy men, gurus and the devine head of their religion. Perhaps these are planted and partially caused by our undeveloped childish minds being taught vast concepts at a time in our develpment that we are not yet ready to comprehend? Which brings me back to sex. The teaching of this natural part of our lives, causes all sorts of problems to religions and societies. Some of these set the age that this should be taught as high as they can and some - who teach their religion to these children as early as they can - consider formal sex education should not be given at all! The concepts of hell and purgatory are less than comforting to a young mind. And the idea of an all-seeing, all-knowing God who follows you even to the toilet and judges your every thought and action - is enough to make any child totally paranoid. In some religions, in combination with their strange ideas of sex, it sometimes appears as if this effect - or at least causing guilt - is intentional....... Forgivable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:19 PM My children certainly know my thoughts when it comes to organized religion, christianity in particular. We've talked about many of the issues regarding how religions operate (in contrast to spiritual beliefs). But they know I think about a lot of these things, and while I want them to have their eyes open, if they decide to adopt a religious practice when they're older I know they'll have the advantage of deciding without having been coerced. I won't disown them. :) SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM Right, milk monitor, within your own definition of the word "religious" you are not, but within my definition of it you are. Now we understand each other. Shambles - You asked, "Are you saying here that imposing organised religion upon children is forgivable?" Good question! It raises a valuable point. Here is my answer. Imposing any belief system on children is wrongful and potentially harmful. Offering them a large variety of possible belief systems, and encouraging them to expand on those in their own unique fashion, and then allowing them the freedom to make up their own minds about it all is the way to go. If I were raising a child I would encourage that child to freely investigate and question all existing belief systems with an open mind, including both conventional religions and atheism. Children are not the property of their parents, no more than citizens are the property of their society. We are all intended to live and think as free beings. It is therefore wrongful to impose any belief system on anyone. Whether it's unforgivable or not, well, that's another matter altogether. It depends on whether you think you can achieve more by holding grudges or by forgiving... I've noticed that the most spiritually advanced people seem to be able to forgive absolutely anything, while the least spiritually advanced are not inclined to forgive even a cross look or an idle remark if they take it the wrong way. :-) I highly recommend forgiveness. Not surrender, not acceptance of wrongful behaviour, but forgiveness. Extreme lack of forgiveness leads back to the initial subject of this thread, mental illness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:50 PM Oops--there are two Richards, not an Arthur in there. Richard the Lion Hearted (Coeur d'Lion) and his brother John. Not to be confused with Richard II, who I also mentioned because I think he was also unfairly vilified, but it was a bit of a side trip. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Cruiser Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:27 PM No, however a person with a mental illness espousing any form of Religion is especially dangerous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:31 PM Well, Shambles, if imposing organized religion on children is, as you say, "unforgivable"...then I say that imposing our other bizarre belief systems...the present educational, medical, marketing, and political $y$tems on them is equally unforgivable Probably it is but these things are the everyday reality which faces them. Organised religion on the other hand, is simply someone elses belief or faith. Fine for them to hold and express but not, I would suggest to impose upon their children. Are you saying here that imposing organised religion upon children is forgivable? Should this not be a matter for them to decide for themselves, preferably without any pressure being placed upon them by their parents or society? Some folk, would certainly consider that certain sexual activities of others are an expression of their mental illness, whether you agree with this or not - I think you may agree that to indocrinate children into these sort of sexual activities would be unforgivable? In most places, it would certainly be, rightly in my opinion, illegal for them to do this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,milk monitor Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:52 PM LH, I agree then that under your definition of the word religious, I must be. But within my own definition of the word, I am not. Well if you discount the Druidic leanings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:59 AM Stilly, you are an intellectual's intellectual. :-) I bet Doug R gets the shivers when he reads your stuff. (He seems to be suspicious of "intellectuals".) I believe that all people are religious in nature, whether or not they believe in a God or a "supreme being" or any organized religion at all. Some of the most deeply religious people I've ever known in my life were atheists, engineers, very heady people. They just don't realize they are religious, because the word "religious" causes an artificial symbol to rise in their mind that leads them astray, and they miss the meaning. I do not represent the "overarching Christian community". I don't represent anything smaller than Life itself. All the churches and offical religions in the World could vanish and it wouldn't bother me too much. Life would go on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Amos Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM Hard-wired into human nature? I am sure not. It may be human nature to look for broader perspectives, at least absent certain traumatizing factors, I guess. But to move from that to the generation of religion requires significant components of either fear, a hunger for power not otherwise accessible, a desire for real estate (cf SRS above) OR a degree of spiritual sensibility which is capable of at least a little transcendant perception beyond the range of normal meat-body mechanisms. There are plenty of purely nacherl humans who have none of the above and don't much mind about religion. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:45 AM Well, Shambles, if imposing organized religion on children is, as you say, "unforgivable"...then I say that imposing our other bizarre belief systems...the present educational, medical, marketing, and political $y$tems on them is equally unforgivable ....Depending.... There are good and bad ways of dealing with all of the above belief systems. If religion stirs greater reverence and love for life and humanity in a person, that is good. If it stirs guilt, fear, and prejudice in a person that is not good. I've seen plenty of examples of either range of possibility. And the same goes for education, politics, marketing, and medicine. All these things can be applied very well or very badly. Blanket statements condemning any one of them in toto are therefore foolish, in my opinion, and merely serve to indicate that the one making the statement has an emotional issue they haven't dealt with yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:37 AM I will begin this entry with the observation that at one point in time, people thought that witches turned milk sour. Not understanding the science of bacteria in milk, they assumed human or not-so-benign intervention. That mystery has been solved, and those beliefs have been set aside. But there are others to which humans still are not convinced of the hypothetical answers, or there aren't even theories, so choose to assign those matters to a higher being. Belief systems (spiritual beliefs, sometimes organized as religions) come with creation stories as part of the package. A few of those organized religions want to trump science and force their creation story on the public at large, as is happening with the manipulation of science text books and the sticker mentioned above and in the news this week. Now more specifically to the discussion at this end of the thread: Little Hawk wrote in a couple of posts:
and later
It could be any one of a great many different things, after all. There are as many versions of God out there as there are blades of grass. If you didn't believe in something larger than yourself, Wolfgang, you would never have been drawn toward a career in science in my opinion. Science immediately posits a view of life that is considerably larger than the little self. Little Hawk is (at the very least, for the sake of argument) creating a rhetorical cul-de-sac in which he is introducing a binary opposition and appropriating others' bodies and personal choices to illustrate his flawed point. He suggests they have to choose between the two options he (and the overarching christian community) perceives as the only choices. This is appropriation by placing the non-believer into the believer's context, and is a long-standing practice in Western cultures (probably also elsewhere, but I can't speak for elsewhere, but if I read more on Orientalism I might have something to say). It is an attempt, by setting the rules of the game, to win simply by having the opponent accept your rules, even if they don't accept your (apparently) larger argument. You might want to look into how the pope dealt with the gnostics of the twelfth century--Jessie Weston discusses them lucidly in her book From Ritual to Romance. They actually accepted the larger picture, but wouldn't play the church's hierarchical pyramid scheme by letting men dictate how other men believed in a god and who got the cash for leading the followers. Little Hawk provided some valuable insight into what seems to drive much of the western world today, and compares it with recent German history:
The present-day USA is mired in its own weird religion, which is a pastiche of bizarre political mythology, notions of a messianic mission to "save the World" (meaning to convert others by persuasion or force and make them be like "us"), notions of cultural superiority, extreme materialism and devotion to monetary gain, militarism gone wild, idolatry of political leaders, arch-morality (yet again!) espoused most loudly through the fundamentalist Christian outlook, an anti-Islamic crusade, the worshipping of youth, beauty, and fame...and on and on.... This is actually a very very short loop in the history of the world. I would suggest that when the U.S. fights it's battle over "terror" (the outcome of powerful opposional world views clashing--and where WE are terrorists just like they are, depending on whose view you subscribe to) and/or oil in the Middle East, we not only are ignoring human behavior in recent history, we're ignoring what has become iconic cultural history as well. Bear with me for a moment longer. I would suggest that we have had these global battles over the same kinds of religion-plus-real-estate questions with the same combatants before--during the Crusades. And it has had a major impact on the stories we tell ourselves about our heroes. I have always questioned the binary that was set up regarding King Arthur and King John. It's like what happened later to Shakespeare's King Richard. The one who lost becomes the bad guy in the stories (which are always told by the victors). Richard was off fighting the Crusades, and John was interested in the home population. Personally, I'd have written off Richard also. As the story is told now, with Robin Hood in the mix, John is the completely bad guy, with no shades of gray to show us what he might really have had in mind. We've discussed Robin Hood and that period at great length here at Mudcat. (Bits of this represent scholarly wrangling and disarray, but I hope if you read through you'll pick up the high points of the conversation). Holding a view of the world with or without a higher being, and who/what that higher being might be if you believe in one, and considering what was borrowed or appropriated from belief systems that held a more terrestrial and localized focus is a discussion that is goes better if those participating in the discussion step back from their own language and look at the loaded terms and automatic assumptions that are invisibly in play. Betsy said
This must be the case, and because of this, it is best to not have those "believers" who participate in the discussion give those with an opposing view (i.e., Wolfgang, or Freda, or myself) a patronizing pat on the head and the suggestion that s/he doesn't really understand what he believes. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST Date: 12 Nov 04 - 09:14 AM To Shambles , and as you said "The ones that combine political ideolgy with religious certainty - are usually the ones to be feared most....." There's still a few around and their ilk are likely to always be so ....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Nov 04 - 08:51 AM I went to a Church of England school. Now if I had been taught about some of the common symptoms of metal illness and the same time as I was being told about Old Testament people like Noah hearing God and folk like Moses talking to burning bushes - I suspect I would have had even less faith in what I was supposed to accept as the basis for this particular religion. However, I probably would have been more likely to grow up and be employed dealing with mental illness than I would have grown up to be a vicar. And if I started hearing god's voice in my head, telling me to build big wooden ships, I would have be less likely to start to order the wood than to consult a doctor. All organised religion to me, could be considered as a collective mental illness and imposing this on our young is unforgivable. For where I may be prepared to accept personally that there may be more that I can see or be able to prove - expecting to have this faith, in what someone else tells me and asks me to have faith in their - is not an option for me. Nor is expecting anyone else to accept my faith. We seem to have less of a problem with this religeous imposition upon our young than we do when it is political ideology that is imposed. This is a litle strange, for even if you may not agree with the political ideology in question, it is at least (usually) a rational one that can be argued. The ones that combine political ideolgy with religious certainty - are usually the ones to be feared most................... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 12 Nov 04 - 07:30 AM Wolfgang , people can't be certain about these things - that's why we commit our thoughts to paper and thereby we continue the search . We're allowed to dismiss or reject other peoples opinions just as we can accept that they possibly have merit. We share and explore the arguments and the notions, but the Subject doesn't lend itself to accepting or rejecting FACTS - because with religion, the facts which puportedly exist are more times than enough - rejected by other religions or members of a similar religion. For example is the Eucharist THE body of Christ or just a symbolic gesture. How many people / Organised Reigions does this foundation stone - divide ??? Read it all - you don't have to accept one single word - and what you read may even strengthen your religious convictions. Little Hawk tells us you are a Scientist , I'm an Engineer and maybe the two of us suffer from the same problem in that we see every situation is governed by Engineering Rules and Scientific Principles which are enough for us determine definite answers. Unfortunately this Subject can never povide us with a modicum of certainty (based on facts), however one's Credo and Faith have been challenged but hopefully they still remain intact to the comfort of the holder. That they get tested from time to time (by whatever means) is no bad thing for a healthy mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM Right on the mark, GUEST. :-) Fibula, Peter K., milk monitor, etc...the fact is that you and I actually agree on the essential philosophical points in this discussion. I would indeed compare much conventional religion to "a comfort blanket". I would likewise compare people's naive reliance on things like official political party lines in the same light. Those are secular religions, in my opinion, because I do not think that being "religious" necessarily requires belief in a "god" or some sort of omnipotent, unseen deity or spiritual being. It merely requires belief in a powerful idea, that's all. The Nazis were religious, for example. Their religion was a weird pastiche of Christianity, racial theories of a master race, idolatry of a messianic individual (Hitler), nationalism, militarism, anti-communism, and arch-morality (in their terms). That was a powerful religion if ever I've seen one! The present-day USA is mired in its own weird religion, which is a pastiche of bizarre political mythology, notions of a messianic mission to "save the World" (meaning to convert others by persuasion or force and make them be like "us"), notions of cultural superiority, extreme materialism and devotion to monetary gain, militarism gone wild, idolatry of political leaders, arch-morality (yet again!) espoused most loudly through the fundamentalist Christian outlook, an anti-Islamic crusade, the worshipping of youth, beauty, and fame...and on and on.... I call that a cult. An extreme cult. It's a cult that sometimes claims to serve God, but it actually serves money and naked power (as did the medieval Church of Rome). Now, anyone who willingly serves that $y$tem and supports its propaganda and aggression is indicating to me that he believes in something greater (meaning larger and more important) than himself. He can be a 100% atheist (by the usual definition) and still do that. I'm not insulting anyone, Wolfgang, because we all actually agree on this matter...we are just arguing over semantics, because what I said has not been understood. I said that someone would have to be insane (or unconscious) not to believe in something larger than themselves, and that is the case. I did NOT say they would have to be insane not to believe in God. I know lots of sane people who don't believe in God. But first, you must determine what the heck it is they are talking about when they SAY the word "God"! It could be any one of a great many different things, after all. There are as many versions of God out there as there are blades of grass. If you didn't believe in something larger than yourself, Wolfgang, you would never have been drawn toward a career in science in my opinion. Science immediately posits a view of life that is considerably larger than the little self. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:32 PM Don't just sit and say "Wow that's so inexplicably wonderful God must have made it" Go out and look for an explanation. Too many lazy people prefer to credit someone or something else, rather than think about it in case their brain hurts. If God made it prove it! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:23 PM Wolfgang, you post made perfect sense to me. You managed to state your case without the overbearing need to try and persuade anybody that their way of thinking is the wrong way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:15 PM Wolfgang , the question raised at the beginning was "Is it possible that Organised Religion is a form of Mental Illness". Some have examined the other avenues related to this thread - it did not seek to examine personal religious beliefs , faith or spirituality. The two entities are quite clear . Little Hawk is kicking the subject around with the effect promoting discussion - calm down , the element of mischieviousness in his remarks is pulling the subject around and trying to make us look at it from different angles and perceptions . The effort ( and amount ) he puts into his writing tells us he's genuinely interested in the subject - and , just because we don't like an opinion - that's no reason to get bent out of shape. He's enjoying the intellectual jousting - try to enjoy it also and gain something from the experience - that's what we're here for - to challenge and possibly learn from each others views and opinions . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:45 PM Little Hawk, what on earth (or in heaven above) is the point of ranking abstract concepts like freedom alongside those superior beings who exist in gullible imaginations? Compare religion with a comfort blanket and you might start to make sense.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Nov 04 - 09:37 AM You can't be human and NOT believe in someone or something greater than yourself unless you're completely insane and ready for a padded cell. (Little Hawk) Same as the last time I quoted you in this thread, Little Hawk, you are using a nonsensical and this time even insulting dichotomy. Either a person is accepting your thoughts or she is insane. And please if you answer don't answer this time with a long rant about your faith that has nothing at all to do with my post as you did last time. My issue is not your faith. You have explained it beautifully and clearly and there is nothing to criticise about personal faiths (unless..., but that's a different story). My issue is with your way of arguing and with your cheap trick of using insulting and wrong dichotomies. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:05 PM Moocowpoo, How perceptive of you !!!! and I share your thought on "excellent thoughtful responses". Blessya. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: chris nightbird childs Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:23 AM Nice one, Fibula. I agree with the last few posts. I think that people only put faith in a "higher power" when they don't have faith in themselves, and this counts for the people who need to follow and be lead. I personally don't think there's some Divine Being working with the force of Nature. Although that's what many sheep would like to believe... baa... baa... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Fibula Mattock Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM ...and if the pope shits in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it still make a sound? ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Fibula Mattock Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM Right on, milk monitor! Ah c'mon LH, I know you're a spiritual kind of guy, but you're a smart one too, right? ;-) So you can probably recognise that it is possible not to hold any one thing as "greatest"? Why should there be some universal Truth? I see it that we're here through the right sort of circumstances arising to allow our existence and to allow any evolution to fit any changes in those circumstances. We don't matter any more or any less than anything else that fits such circumstances. People often use the "oh, but life/nature/the universe is so complicated that there must be a designer behind it" instead of thinking that conversely, life is so complicated because it is a web of nature that fits the circumstances, and anything that didn't fit in was lost along the way, hence we're left with something intricate that works because the alternative is all the stuff that doesn't work... am I being coherent...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,milk monitor Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:51 AM I'm with Fibula on this one. And LH you aren't playing fair! Saying that no one being is greater than yourself, does NOT mean the same as saying I am the greatest. We were all created equal in my book. That makes me no better or worse than anyone else. It is a really easy concept to understand. Unless you belong to the mindset that needs an all seeing being in your imagination to provide you with a reason to be, and a code to follow. Some of us can work out right from wrong all on our own. We don't hurt people intentionally anymore than someone who wears their knees out praying. And of course there are 'things' such as nature and family etc that have greater force than our individual strengths. But these are not there because of religion. Their existence/power would not be diminished one jot if religion were to disappear. It amazes me how people have such difficulty accepting others points of view where religion is concerned. And no I dont think it is a form of mental illness. It just attracts alot of followers who don't find a place to fit in society. Some people need to be led. Nothing wrong with that. But don't deny others their freedom to forge their own paths? You can tell the convent education really worked on me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: moocowpoo Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM ALL questions have an agenda!! (rhetorical ones too) This particular question (of course!!) arises from an agenda and, has incited some excellent thoughtful responses, perhaps THAT was on the poster's agenda, even if it wasn't, I've enjoyed reading the posts here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM Heh! Yes, that's a funny one, all right... :-) Fibula - You mean to tell me that you think you are the largest, most significant, and most important matter in this overall existence here that we refer to as "life"? In a general sense, I mean? Do you think the World...even the Universe...revolves around you and your concerns? If so, I submit that you are not playing with a full deck, as they say. :-) If not, then you DO believe in something larger than yourself. It's just not "God", that's all. It's something else. It does not have to be God to be something larger than yourself. It could be family, country, justice, freedom, morality, truth, etc.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:06 AM After much serious and informed discussion about this Subject I recieved an Email today from a friend of mine which some of you may like. It is a little lighter than some of the comments and I hope it offers some fun and cheer in the difficult world of Faith and Religion :- ( Bear with it - even though you may not be very good at Science ) Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) [I knew that!] or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed)or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, " it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you, and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God." Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Fibula Mattock Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM You can't be human and NOT believe in someone or something greater than yourself unless you're completely insane and ready for a padded cell Time for me to be locked up in that case. I have as much difficulty in accepting that there might be something greater, as you do in accepting that I *don't* believe in something greater! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,SueB Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:30 AM You don't have to be mentally ill to be brainwashed. It is my own opinion that much religious education amounts to a form of steady and systematic brainwashing, from childhood on. Religion can be like a roadmap which has been impressed over and over into your mind until your mind equates the map with reality, with truth. For some people who have been raised in a very religious community it then comes as a huge shock to go out into the world and find that other people are using other maps. Thank you all for the book recommendations. If you're interested in understanding more about what Lonesome EJ was talking about, look for Jon Krakauer's latest, called Under the Banner of Heaven. PS - I should say that it's not just religious education that can resemble brainwashing - that claptrap we teach elementary students about the Pilgrims and the Indians at the First Thanksgiving is a form of brainwashing to my mind as well. It doesn't have to be about manipulation and mind control - we're just, as human beings, impressionable. BTW, there was an interesting article in the Guardian Online today about a lawsuit by parents in one of the eastern states concerning a a school district that was persuaded to put stickers on the outside of all the science textbooks saying that evolution is just a theory. I think there'll be a lot more of these, in the next few years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM Correct, Stilly. "Cult" is mostly just a nasty insult word used to abuse people who have a different form of belief from the one who is saying the other is in a "cult". People who don't like Catholics could just as well say that Catholicism is a cult, after all. It's kind of like calling someone a "liberal" or a "redneck". :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM "Cult" is a christian term that is applied to groups that christians don't approve of, including splinter factions of christian religions. Like calling non-christians "Pagans" instead of the many other descriptions that exist, or the acutal name of their belief. It's a code word that is in the language and is one of many we don't unpack in light of day very often. "Cult" has negative connotations, and one of the earliest uses of the term was to describe the religious following of the goddess Diana. She was big, really big, and the christians took a lot of material from Diana (and Artemis), creating Mary from the bits they approved of, before declaring that Diana's followers were a cult and intentionally and wilfully demoting her to a sideline role in the world. (Colonizers did the same thing to the American Indian trickster figures who were originally gods, but with a didactic nature that christians didn't understand as the "don't do as I do" school of thought). Artemis and Diana from Wikipedia. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM Cults are not necessarily about hatred, Frank. They may well be about a number of other things, such as: control, political power, popularity, money, etc... Those do not necessarily equate with hatred, though they do tend to link with other less charges vices such as selfishness and greed. The reason people connect cults in their mind with hatred is merely that those cults which are possible the most dramatic are those which encourage and practive hatred. Ebbie, you are so right. Everyone believes in someone or something greater than themselves...even Stilly River Sage! :-) She just doesn't want to admit it, or else she is interpreting your phrase in far too narrow a fashion. That's my opinion, Stilly. You can't be human and NOT believe in someone or something greater than yourself unless you're completely insane and ready for a padded cell. There are such people, but I know you're not one of them. Or do you wish to assert that there is NOT anything or anyone out there that is greater (meaning "larger" and possibly more important, though not "better") than yourself? Well? As Spock said in many Star Trek episodes: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." That is the recognition of something greater than oneself. That is the recognition that moved Joan of Arc, Abraham Lincoln, Gandhi, Einstein, and every other great benefactor of the human race that has ever lived. It is the recognition of a dog that freely gives its own life in defence of its human family too. And THAT is the cornerstone of spiritualiy: Love that is large enough to overcome mere self-interest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:27 AM To "Frank" especially , I appreciate your comments but the premise of the original question was related to Organised Religion - I never mentioned "spirituality" - a word / condition which is subject to many interpretations , however, you now have me musing as to whether a Cult is an Organised Religion and should be taken under the umbrella of the original question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:30 PM Regarding the concept of a "personal God" who interferes in human affairs, there is a passage from an extraordinary novel by Mary Doria Russell, very literary, part science-fiction, and very much a novel of ideas: After a long and harrowing inquest into the disaster that happened to an expedition, which included a number of Jesuit priests, to the newly discovered planet Rakhat orbiting Alpha Centauri, the Father General of the Society of Jesus and a couple of other priests are walking in a garden and trying to sort out what they have just learned . . . He sat back in the bench and stared at the ancient olive trees defining the edge of the garden. "There's an old Jewish story that says in the beginning God was everything and everywhere, a totality. But to make creation, God had to remove Himself from some part of the universe, so something besides Himself could exist. So He breathed in, and in the places where God withdrew, creation exists."Respectfully submitted for your own private musings. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: dianavan Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:08 PM Oh dear, I just returned from a short walk and discovered a new, Pentecostal, store-front ministry just blocks from home. I have never seen such a thing in Vancouver. Looks like its spreading to Canada. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:38 PM Betsy, I think there's a difference between religion and religious and spiritual action. A great definition given to me was that religion is essentially about love and a cult is about the dissemination of hatred. We can see that today it's easy to spot the difference. The basic principles of almost every religion are quite powerful and a metaphorical guide to social behavior. When it gets crazy is when it is interpreted by those who would use it to acquire power. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:36 PM *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,The Pope Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM Thankyou. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:29 PM 'Need' may not be the correct term, SRS; perhaps the 'norm' is better. I am speaking of 'pack' animals- whether it's the wolf or its descendant, the dog. I'm spaaking of the normal child's admiration and emulation of the adults in its life. The calf's pursuit of and reliance on its mother- or on any other adult bovine that will protect it. The churchgoer's reliance on the dogma of its order. The pope's yearning for God. My own innate belief that I don't koow everything. I would say even Universalists and Buddhists are in pursuit of Truth, which one might say is a 'greater' good. On the other hand, I'm not locked into this concept. I was musing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Nov 04 - 02:29 PM
I would politely but emphatically dispute every single claim in that sentence, Ebbie. You're speaking for all of them? Dogs, calves, and humans around the globe? I don't think so. To begin with, take me off of that list. I would base my argument on the premise that people in different cultures have different beliefs, and much of their common belief system is contained as baggage in their languages. What your remark displays is an acceptance that what your language (English) and culture (new-world, industrial-religion, christian-based) tell you are somehow "universal," but this isn't the case. You didn't take into account the Unitarians or many other nations around the world. And human language and ideas can only convey what humans think, not what animals are capable of thinking or feeling. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: chris nightbird childs Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM I'm a practicing Buddhist. It does keep my stress level down, but I hardly see how something like Catholicism could do this. How could you keep you stress down if you're worried about being guilty all the time? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Bill D Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM "Religion is a form of therapy that keeps one from going mad." does it follow that IF you are not religious, you are mad? Or IF you are mad, you are not religious?...or does anything at all follow from a vague little aphorism? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM Like a great many people, I am not conventionally religious- and I mean 'conventionally' in the context of my day and time, background and region. I am, however, a believer in the unseen and the currently unknown. I suspect that there are many things around us that we just don't see. Hypnosis can demonstrate the human being's ability to ignore what someone else readily sees. And if there are physical things we don't see, how much more likely it is that we are not aware of the intangible. I remember once hearing a preacher say, 'You don't get to pick and choose the parts of religion that you like. You have to either believe or not believe.' I say, Of course, I get to pick and choose! What is true for me, judged by my experience and personality and current understanding is what fits me. It occurs to me that every sentient being needs the knowledge that there is something or someone greater than itself. Dogs accept that, calves accept it, churchgoers accept it, children accept it, adult humans accept it, the pope accepts it. I accept it. Whether or not it is a need based on fear and insecurity is something else again. |
