BBC 4 folk program

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Harper Blow
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 09:09 AM

I missed it. I switched to BBC4 and got a black screen. What's that about??? I get the other Freeview channels.

After last night's fiasco I can only say you were the lucky one. With a few exceptions, this series has been disappointing and a missed opporunity to produce a really dynamic programme from the wealth of talent that exists around the country. Last night had more of a feel of a get up a do a turn PTA event, than a showcase for British Folk. :-(

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 08:17 AM

Sorry that last sentence should have included the words "your assessment is spot on"

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 08:16 AM

Greg - I quite agree. As I said previously, the show as a whole (and the one that preceded it) was underwhelming.

It didn't really satisfy either the Folk or the Britannia (well, the Albion bit saw to that) parts of the billing, and was often a bit of a worthy attempt to mix eclectic artists whose styles really don't blend. And Eliza was also the only clear example of a female lead instrumentalist in among all the singers (why does the Beeb always overlook the instrumental tradition?). I think your assessment that this is probably the result of media types talking to other media types and then distorting the show to suit their own prejudices.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:48 AM

Shepherdlass: I am sure we all agree that there were some great individual performances on the programme(though we might not all agree which those were!). But there does seem to be a general consensus that it wasn't a great programme to present as the final summing-up event to close a series called "Folk Britannia". Where do you stand on that, I would be interested to know?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:41 AM

One thing, though. June Tabor's new, even sparer, version of Fine Horsemen might have been more art-song than what you expect from folk, but it WAS spellbinding.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:15 AM

Ahh at last, I got it now .. The good thing about last nights programme.. herself only set the video for an hour, PHEW!!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:09 AM

El Greko: your suggestion that "they" might consult eg Eliza or Martin Carthy seems to me very rational, but very naive. In real life, media people tend to talk to media people. Musicians talk to musicians. Arts funders talk to arts administrators. People tend to stick to their own worlds. So those programmes fit with the interests of certain journalists and TV producers, and not particularly with musicians'(or punters') preconceptions.
    A remarkable examp[le of this can be studied: I just have.There was a discussion on the Folk Roots Forum a year ago, initiated by someone who said they didnt like English folk music, much as they liked other kinds. Eliza Carthy came into the ensuing argument with a list of recordings of artists she would recommend to play to people to people who didnt like English folk, to make them change their mind. Now, isn't that just the sort of list you think the BBC might be working through, when constructing a "Folk Britannia" series of programmes? You'ld think some such thought would come up, like" While, young Eliza is the main star of the scene. Might to interesting to look at the people she likes".
    Now, I havent seen all the programmes, but I believe that this Carthy list is conspicuous by its absence in the listings for "Folk Britannia". Odd, isn't it? Now, it's quite understandable that the Joe Bloggs of this world don't get the ear of the big cheeses at the BBC, but you would think EC would, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:03 AM

I did wonder whether they had adequate sound monitoring. Even the normally note-perfect Eliza went sharp for a bar or so - and that's just not usual. Might also be more explanation for Kathryn Williams's vocal problems than her pregnancy (I was still blowing alto sax at eight-and-a-half months gone, and have friends who've played all manner of brass in the same condition - breath control's possible if you just shorten your phrases) ... unless she's having twins or something!. Dunno ... I was really looking forward to this programme and it was just ... underwhelming.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 06:54 AM

Yes Giok, I wonder too. But whatever the cause, the programme was "skata"...

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 06:49 AM

I sometimes wonder George if these 'others' ever get asked. There is you must admit a certain sameness about nearly all folk, or so called folk programmes on the box.
Giok

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 06:26 AM

Giok, no excuse for the producers knowing little about folk. They have budgets, they can get come consultancy from Eliza, from Martin, from others...

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 06:11 AM

Hmmmm..nah still thinking!!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 06:00 AM

Folk performers are now all fighting over the "middle ground"

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:50 AM

I hate to do this - I want to enthuse, I really, really do! But last night's programme was a disaster - a complete shambles! Where were the folk songs, for a start? Lots of drippy women singing pathetic mush - lots of them sounded like they were down a well singing to their own bottoms! And some of the performances were awful - the sorts of performances that could give the worst club floor singers a good name.
The biggest waste of talent was Eliza Carthy. While Billy 'Mr Folk Music' Bragg hogged last week's show, British Folk Music's brightest hope hardly got a look in. What we did get to hear of Ms Carthy just went to show that women folk singers don't have to be fey, wispy things singing fey, wispy songs whilst hiding behind their own hair.
To be fair, Eliza's Mum doesn't fit the stereotype either but she did seem desperate to avoid singing anything resembling a folk song ...

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:41 AM

Glok: while none of us can be sure what might or might not happen in a parallel universe,I would predict that Liza Carthy would quite quickly float to the top of any musical scene, whoever her parents were. Show a recording of that "Daughters of Albion" concert to a non-folkie, and I would guess they would sleep through most of it except when the young lady in question started singing: at which point they would wake up and say "Who's she?". Try it.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:31 AM

I hate to be cynical, as you may know it's not at all like me to do that!! However the BBC has always only ever paid lip service to authenticity with it's eye on the ratings charts as the main driving force.
I daresay most of us could put on a better selection of artists, and chosen more stirring and representative pieces to broadcast.
At the end of the day the people who make these programmes have only ever heard of a few folk artists, and thay keep going back to these people every time.
They of course don't want to turn down the cash so the lesser known albeit oftimes better performers don't get a look in.
It is now and always has been, 'If your face fits', and do you really think you'd have had a chance of seeing Eliza on this programme if her father had been Joe Bloggs from Nowheretown.
Do yourselves a favour and listen to /radio/aod/scotland_aod.shtml?scotland/travelfolk"> Travelling Folk on radio Scotland where you will get a better mix of talents, and not the same old same old that these programmes polished the egos of.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:18 AM

Well??

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:11 AM

Hang on, I'm trying to think of something good to say about the programme....

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 04:54 AM

Les and El Greko...I take your point about Kathryn's lack of vocal range, but I have a couple of her CD's and her voice is very good.
In fact her version of "Ned on the hill" is my all time favourite.

Surely her pregancy must have had much to do with her vocal problems.
I had a vision of her going for a high note and wiping out the first two rows of the audiance.

At least she went for traditional and meaningful material, not the pretentious stuff we saw from some of the others.

Cant agree about Eliza though, seems to be "part of the problem not part of a solution"

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 04:36 AM

I've heard Kathryn before and linked her voice. I suspect being so heavily pregnant would make singing very very difficult (I have enough trouble with my beer belly)!

Does anyone have any inside info? Was there some problem with the monitors perhaps?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 04:34 AM

Appalling!
The only one who came across as a real star was Eliza - I'd rather have seen her band in concert, and feck the rest of them.
And what was that band all about? Why did they need THREE guitarists all strumming the same chords. Presumably lots of nice tasty session fees 'for the boys'.
I've watched the whole series and, quite honestly, I wish I hadn't bothered. Apart from a very few little gems, it was all a heap of claptrap. I've been involved in the folkscene since the mid 60s, and made my living from it for nearly 30 years, and it bore no resemblance to what really happened back then, or what is happening now. Donovan talking complete rubbish, and Billy Bragg re-branding himself as a born-again folky - presumably with an eye to the twilight years of his career.
Sorry, I can't be bothered to go any more. I want my money back!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: LesB
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 04:28 AM

I have to echo most of the points already made, except Kathryn Williams. I'd heard of her but never heard her, & I won't bother trying. She couldn't sing! Awful, & I hate squeeky feeble little voices anyway.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 04:21 AM

Like others, I was deeply disappointed. Ake and the Admiral and punkfolkrocker made most of my points (except I thought Kathryn saved nothing, ake, she was full of duff notes and out of her range most of the time). Eliza herself is always good, and June Tabor is my favourite female voice, yet even the latter did not shine on the night. Why indeed was it such a "flat" event, with so much promise available?

The selection of participants is one reason - but the selection of material was equally to blame, I thought. At least on the parts that were televised, 90% of the songs were slow, dirge-like, there was no fire to the performances, there was too much "breathiness" in the voices and too much introspection. By song No 4 I was tempted to switch off, but persevered only to hear more agonisingly inappropriate material, like the false "girls out on the town" camaraderie of that Bing Crosby number (what were they thinking!). Was that the best of what the Daughters of Albion had to offer over 60 years of singing and songwriting? Countess Richard would find me in agreement for once with her "snigger/snogger" comments. The only one with real fire on the night IMHO was Sheila Chandra (if I have the name right).

I wonder what the producer was thinking when he put this together. Vashti's appearance was inexplicable to me (on the strength of one album years ago and a new one just out, with 30 years of self-imposed absence, what precisely were her credentials?). Ditto for Lou - I am all for experimentation, but I heard little of it on the night, I heard plenty of navelgazing though).

Could any one of us do better? for once I'd say, hell, yes! My "dream team" would have Eliza anchoring, an appearance by Norma, June of course, but then I'd bring up Maddy for one on her own and one as "silly sisters" with June, I'd have either the Threllfalls or the Witches of Elswick, Maggie Boyle, Jane Russel do her "farewell" song and Kate Rusby for a northeastern flavour (or even better - Anni Fentiman!). And that would leave still on the bench Bill Jones (whetever you think of her, she has some cracking arrangements and wrote one or two great songs).

As it was, the programme would have gained few, if any, converts to the delights of folk music of any sort. Shame; an opportunity lost, the navelgazing stereotype reinforced, important performers put into impossible and embarassing situations and in my book the first time ever that Eliza was involved in something that I could not applaud - I am sorry for her too, as she was probably tied hand and foot by the production team (I heard some very interesting stories about last week's concert) and I hope this becomes a lesson for us all to learn from.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 03:56 AM

I watched this programme and thought..........bloody 'ell I could have watched a third or fourth repeat of ' A Touch Of Frost ' and enjoyed it more.

Not a great deal to do with folk music at all, it would have been better given over to Norma, Eliza and June, the rest of them were bloody awful,
and being pregnat is no excuse for singing in that high twee ickle girly voice, if you have heard the great Ann Briggs sing ' Blackwaterside ' you will know what I mean. And who was that who murdered Reynardine, saying she didn't like it's theme so she made it into a love song for fecks sake.

A wasted 1 1/2 hours, is there no one at the BBC with the skill and imagination to make a GOOD folk music programme.

Unbelievably I find myself agreeing with punkfolkrocker, punk did more for folk music than this garbage.

eric

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 03:48 AM

It is rather depressing that the BBC puts huge resources into broadcasting a folk concert as the end of its folk series and it gets a unanimous thumbs down from a folkie forum. You'd think aat least they'd manage to please us, even if they fail to engage the wider public. It's all too reminiscent of the Millennium Dome business: the big organisations have become incable of proper celebration. It goes without saying we have the musicians to do the job(or theatre people and other entertainers and suchlike in the case of the dome). It seems to be down to some failure of will at the top, to give the jobs to the right people. I know, as we surely all do, that Liza Carthy and June Tabor can stun audiences with the power their performances. So what went wrong with the programme?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: nutty
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 02:56 AM

With so many really talented female singers on the scene at present, what a shame that those chosen to represent the 'best' in women's folk music put up such a woefully pathetic show.

Where were the guts, fire and drive that we know exists and that Peggy Seeger and others promotes?

Where were the wonderfully strong voices of the likes of Hilary Spencer?

Where were the amazing harmonies as produced by Jane and Amanda Threlfall and other all female groups?

When the group sang together the sound produced was not pleasant to listen to. What works with the natural family blend of voices for the Watersons, did not work with the those on stage in this performance.

That's my opinion anyway. If I had payed to sit through that I would be asking for a refund.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Compton
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 09:34 PM

Well!..is that it then?...I suppose this short season of nonsense has at least brought a bit of "something other than classical or pap to our screens"...and for that we thank the BBC.
But I never saw much to "light my fire"..like someone a little earlier said.."I felt like slashiong my wrists tonight "!
Didn't the sisters want to sing a "happy song" that might have cheered me up a little.
Eliza doesn't do a lot wrong in my book and she was a small shining light...and a major hope for the future too.
But I found more rubbish that good with all this.
Perhaps in a couple of years, the beeb will have another go!!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Effsee
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 09:13 PM

What an opportunity lost! If this is the best they can do to present British(Folk Brittanica!) folk music to the wider public then all is lost. Over arranged boring sh**e mostly, and a hour and a half of what an old pal of mine used to call "dreepy" songs, and do Waterson:Carthy have to hog every thing? Vashti Bl**dy Bunyan, she was a nonentity in the 60s and still is! Ye Gods and little fishes, as someone who knows and loves the rich diversity of the music of Albion this was a poor show. The only saving grace in the whole shebang is that Kate Bl**dy Rusby wasn't involved!!

I actually posted this on another Forum, but I'm glad to see some of my sentiments echoed here.
What a bloody travesty!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:18 PM

I actually thought the programme was quite adequate. But the fact is, though, as the culmination of the series it should have been completely brilliant.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:06 PM

Very well said Greg..if a touch ascerbic!!......Ake

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 07:49 PM

.. and some people still wonder why,
30 years ago,
my generation needed to resort to
expressing our contempt
of bourgeois 'middle-brow' social orthodoxies..


..by inventing punk rock !!!


BBC4 folk programming is too polite and upper middle class
and timidly licking the arse of weekend newspaper lifestyle magazine culture..

c'mon, give us a proper full 3 part series dedicated to 80's punk folk bands & music..

.. phew.. and i've not even drunk any cider tonight..!!???

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM

And so, after countless thousands of years of common people singing their primitive songs, scraping away at their humble fiddles and blowing their honking bagpipes at village dances, folk music has come to its pinnacle at the end of the "Folk Britannia" series. From its native woodnotes wild period folk music has evolved, at last, into something that you can put on at a proper music venue like the Barbican Centre. I think all of those who have played a part in the world of folk music, however humble their contribution, can now feel a warm glow of pride that the great British Broadcasting Corporation has recognised just where we've got to.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 06:51 PM

I'm just away to slit my wrists!!
What did this shambles have in common with folk music.
The "Waterson/Carthy show" was only saved by Kathryn Roberts, who althought ten months pregnant, managed to sing a couple of folk song in an unpretentious manner.
I truly feel that the music we loved is all but gone and folk is becoming all about the performers.

For folk music to thrive it must remain inclusive, the audiance should feel part of the performance.

Most of what we witnessed to night was exclusive cringe making rubbish.
I doubt there will be any new converts to the music after this ego-fest....Ake

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: The Admiral
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 06:13 PM

A huge disapointment, no great singing, not a lot to do the British tradtion, a grave danger of disapearing up their own backsides, no voices when we know that they can sing. Not much of the Tradition, do women women really believe that just cuddling up together is good enough?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:59 PM

Bit of a pity, given the "Albion" theme, that the only real head of steam was developed when a bit of Ory-style tailgate trombone kicked in, and mum-and-daughter gave it some. Some great singing all around, but a bit worthy I thought. I know lots of daughters of Albion, and some of the time they have fun and laugh and sing uptempo songs, but that side of things didn't get much of a lookin.Doesn't always work when folkies try to reinvent classical music. Tabor hamming up Lili Marlene was excellent, and the "May Bradley goes to New Orleans" always works a treat.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Santa
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:43 PM

Daughters of Albion was a sad disappointment. Precious little tradition and what folk there was, was stretched out and over-arranged, sung by voices that couldn't hit the notes. (OK, I don't include Eliza in that, her voice gets better all the time.) The best song was June Tabor's Lili Marlene, after she'd murdered a Lal Waterson song (and I love June Tabor's singing, but not tonight!). They ended with a mass version of "Who knows where the time goes" which just showed us what (or who) we were missing.

I know where the time went - down the drain. At least I've got a few more names to avoid.

Just think who could have been on - Maggie Boyle, the Witches, Nancy Kerr, Janet Russell, the Threlfalls, Judy Dunning, Kathryn Roberts, Kate Rusby, plus a few more whose names slip my memory for the moment....

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: s&r
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

Bit pretentious IMO

Stu

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:15 PM

Thanks a lot Purple Foxx, I'll have a watch.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:11 PM

Just a reminder "Daughters of Albion" tonight 9pm BBC4

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: fat B****rd
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 10:47 AM

I stand corrected Giok. I was referring to musics left of the mainstream popularity centre.
I wouldn't attempt to pass an opinion on the political leanings (left, right or midle) of performers of a genre that I'm only commercially acquainted with.
Tony Blair was at my place of work on May 1st 1997 and there and in all respects "Things Have Only Got Worse".
Yours venturing out for a cuppa fB.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

Is folk music left of centre politically then fB?
I disagree with that statement, many folk singers and performers are left leaning in their politics, but that does not add up to the same thing as the music its self being lefty.
True many folk songs are by and about the working man, but all working men do not vote Labour. It's a con, and a bit like the Labour Party leaving Labour in their title when they changed their name to New Labour, and quietly dropped all pretence of socialism.
You can come out now!
Giok ☺

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: fat B****rd
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:12 AM

I liked Billy's "Pre-folk" songs and found him fine on Friday night. I'm on the outside looking in as it were but judging by the almost total lack of Folk or any other left of centre music on TV that beggars can't be choosers and if Bragg's the lad to get coverage then more power to him.
Yours ducking behind the VDU fB.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:48 AM

On these type of BBC shows - there is usually at least one token youth act - to show that the tradition is being carried on - is in safe hands etc.

This one did not have the work of any infant writers to carry on.

Unless Mr Bragg considers himself as being all the young fresh blood required?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: My guru always said
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:26 AM

Behave Giok!!! Mind you, you're so right about El Greko....

Just loved the Movalong version with Chris Wood & Karine Polwart, Fantastic!

Can't record from Freeview either, so I'm on the list for copies if anyone has managed to record, Please?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM

Did I mishear or did the Folk-hating Beeb's 'Mr Folk Music' (Billy Bragg) suggest that Dick Gaughan is from Sunderland? Well, I suppose it is "ap Norf, where they're all poh-litty-kul, innit?"
Apart from a few stand-out performances, I thought that this was a rather muddled and dull, dull, dull concert - chuck in everything that you can think of which might be vaguely poh-litty-kul and keep your fingers crossed that it might work - it didn't.

"I was a miner between the wars ..." No you weren't, Mr Bragg - sod off!!!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 06:34 AM

Thank you Master, so kind of you to even respond to one of my posts, I'm highly honoured.
Giok

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 06:09 AM

BTW Did you know that Woody's daughter asked Billy Bragg to work on Woody's unfinished songs? *Smiles*

I sure the point being made here was gathered by everybody except my pet scotch stalker - But I will explain to him and anyone who did not gather it.

It was that we were told this information at least twice - and that it was felt that we needed to be given any explanation at all - as to why it was the Billy Bragg folk music show. And why he was on stage more than anyone else and sang more songs to a largely folk audience that may have wondered why.

And probably still do..................

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 12:31 AM

Just for once Donovan sang the correct words for ' Universal Soldier '

eric

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sil
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 06:12 PM

Noticed how Donovan's guitar was unbelievably green...


Still MUST have a copy of DONOVAN IN CONCERT
Sunday 12 February 12.10am-1am (Saturday night)?, PLEASE,

anybody???

Got very good reason for request,

Sil

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:41 PM

"Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John 'Giok' MacKenzie - PM
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

Billy Bragg was chosen by the family of Woody Guthrie to set some of his lyrics to music, and since that he has been an expert on folk music!
Giok"

Do try to keep up Roger, the post after this was from you.
Giok