BBC 4 folk program

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 09:17 AM

I enjoyed it hugely, but wish quite so much airtime hadn't been spent showing the same archive clips of the early American blues/folk scene that crop up over and over and over again on these history-of-the-people's-music programmes. I know it was a strong influence in the UK, but it wasn't the only one. I'd rather have watched less of it (NOT none) and more about what was happening in Britain, which has not been given the same media exposure. Woody Guthrie & Pete Seeger & Co, while groundbreakers, have been seen and seen and seen.

And Tootler's right: Why were there so few instrumentalists? I wish they'd devote some time to William Kimber (among others) but am not betting huge amounts on it.

Apart from that, there were a lot of treats. I loved hearing Harry Cox and seeing Shirley Collins again (doesn't she look great, and didn't she speak the truth); and the high point of the second hour – something of a curate's egg – was a very young Davey Graham playing Cry Me A River to an enraptured but very diverse audience. There are too many good artists from that era to ever do justice to them, so all the more reason to give recognition to some of the lesser-known names who don't appear in the usual archive clips which always get trotted out.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:31 AM

Perhaps I was a bit unfair about thw White Heather Club, at least they were showing some er ' folk music '.

Hughie Jones of the Spinners still is a fine singer.

eric

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Sooz
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:30 AM

When is the next episode on? There are so many re-runs its hard to know which one is new!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:25 AM

I hated the white Heather Club at the time, but I thought it looked quite fun now, in a sort of surrealist way.

I wish they'd show the whole series. The footage of Irish pubs in the 1950's and Bobby Casey was great.

the trouble was, that every item and artist was worth a programme at least and some of them a series!

we should have our own tv channel.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:33 AM

Two of the Spinners could sing. Or was it only one?
It was all so long ago.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:31 AM

I thought the second programme of old & new performances could have done more than just expand clips from the preceding one. I felt they were padding it out, the old black & white documentary on the rise of the guitar was amusing ina "Chumley Warner" way but wasn't specifically about folk music. I was disappointed that the clip of Ramblin' Jack in the old days was then followed by hwta must have been the worst ever rendition of San Francisco Bay Blues I've heard (apart from my own dreadful version). I love Jack's work, this didn't do him justice. Nice to hear Peggy Seeger, Bob Davenport etc as well as the archive clips, though many of the later seem to be chosen for their amusement value. At least the talking heads were people with experience, not just a bunch of soap stars and standups that usually appear in these programmes.

RtS

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:25 AM

The Spinners - the most influencial English folk group?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM

Missed last night's programme but thoroughly enjoyed the start of Folk Britannia and look forwatd to the rest of the series on folk.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:47 PM

What a grand evenings entertainment. Split up in my case by several recordings at various times, interspersed with live viewing. Not to mention another set of recordings on the Isle of Wight!! The Beeb has a last pleased some of the people some of the time. Sorry you missed it Sian, but I hope you have caught up with one of the many re-runs. No mention that I could detect of Welsh tradition unfortunately. Three programmes to go yet though (I think) so lets hope.
Looking forward to next week but the following weekend is the Anchor Middle Bar Sidmouth Reunion so have to put lots of trust in remote technology....Hmmmmm
I have often wondered and sometimes even gone to print about the daft idea of repaeating programmes intensively very close together, a week at least apart and we might get to watch them without frantic hair-tearing planning meetings!! Ho Hum..

I suppose while I'm chatting I'd better mention Miskin at Easter or some will think I'm slipping. " MISKIN AT EASTER "

Tarra each

Andy

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM

Geoff the Duck wrote

Of course, the British Folk world is based on ridiculing the people who have made what we do possible. We are not allowed to admit we grew up listening to the White Heather Club, The Spinners, Robin Hall & Jimmy McGregor or The Dubliners, because they are "old". Strange for a Folk Movement which prides itself on revering tradition and the past.

Yes, anyone who gets popular or is seen on a mainstream entertainment seems to get accused of having "sold out". I have a fondness for Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor and still have a couple of LPs somewhere. Likewise the spinners. I saw the Spinners live on several occasions and always enjoyed their shows.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:24 PM

Coppersongs just starting, and I'm looking forward to enjoying it for the THIRD time. Husband's gone to bed, having recently readjusted how to record to both video and DVD and I haven't a clue (and the Cointreau's not helping, hic).

Oh ------ - hopefully they'll show it again when he's back in the land of the conscious.

Polly

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:39 PM

You had the '60s revival one, that said "Yeah, like when you really get down to it, what's it all about, man?"

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM

Sain said "I missed it. I switched to BBC4 and got a black screen. What's that about??? I get the other Freeview channels."

Now there's a funy thing.

I bought a freeview box specially. Spent all of thurday and friday working out how to record to VCR, and checking that all was working fine. But come show time I had the same problem! All other channels working, but BBC3 and BBC4 were black!

So I went up to my daughter's room. She has freeview and it shares the same aerial as the TV downstairs. And it was working fine! Check downstairs: Ctill black whatever I do.

(This morning the darn thing had forgotten all the channels, so I swapped it for another model - and which seems ok so far).

Can anyone explain?

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM

The White Heather Club never pretended to be anything other than what it was. It was not a "Folk Club", it was a TV "Entertainment". It did, however have an incredibly large following quoted as 10 million viewers (BLICKY)
Not bad for a "car crash".

Actually, my Grandad was a big fan of Andy Stewart, so I grew up listening to his records. Yes, he was a "professional kilted Scot", but he did more which got Scottish Traditional music heard than most Scots. He was a decent singer who alongside novelty stuff such as Donald Where's Your Troosers he did "straight" songs as well.

Of course, the British Folk world is based on ridiculing the people who have made what we do possible. We are not allowed to admit we grew up listening to the White Heather Club, The Spinners, Robin Hall & Jimmy McGregor or The Dubliners, because they are "old". Strange for a Folk Movement which prides itself on revering tradition and the past.

All in all, the BBC did more to promote Folk in them days than it does now. A couple of documentaries on an obscure digital channel, which will never be shown on the mainstream non-digital channels. Not really something to applaud, is it? Better than nothing? Maybe, but not enough. They used to do better.

Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

p.s. Full Scedule.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: NormanD
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:23 PM

shepherdlass:"And NormanD, to liken it to the deeply offensive Black and White Minstrels is surely a bit extreme..."

Not guilty, I never said that. I said: "It was like watching a car crash of a previous life. Truth is, though, it was mainstream entertainment that used trad. music - and that's the closest TV got to broadcasting folk music in 1960."

The Black & White Minstrels analogy said "Terrible at the time, worse now". I agree with that completely. I couldn't watch it - I squirmed for 10 minutes, it was even beyond mockery. I presumed the programmers put it on as a piece of high-camp piss-taking. 46 years later, we're oh so much more sophisticated....

norman

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 04:14 PM

eric the red wrote: "It was all good except the White Heather Club, which was appalling..."

The White Heather Club wasn't to my taste either, but it's not a good idea to dismiss the inclusion of this show on a BBC folk night dedicated to those years - the fact that it drew large audiences means it must have represented some kind of folk-ish music to a significant number of people in Britain at the time. Imagine mainstream terrestial TV of today broadcasting a regular show that focused on any kind of folk music, no matter how diluted. The fact that it was desperately, cringeworthily mainstream means it may have found its way into the homes that folk clubs didn't reach and perhaps encouraged some people to dip their toes into the revival when they wouldn't otherwise have got involved. And NormanD, to liken it to the deeply offensive Black and White Minstrels is surely a bit extreme. Yes, they were Scottish showbiz-lite performances that weren't exactly 'traditional' (and that word's a minefield it's probably best not to get into when you consider that most of the "folk" in Scotland of the time were more likely to attend showbizzy events than folk clubs), but they weren't non-Scots uncle-Tomming it up in an outright racist and demeaning way.

Sorry, I just worry when our concepts of good or bad taste affect how we view past cultural output. We should be glad there's at least some archive stuff still available. And some of those less controversial clips in the main Folk Britannia programme were fantastic!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:17 PM

I missed it. I switched to BBC4 and got a black screen. What's that about??? I get the other Freeview channels.

So can someone tell me - was there any Welsh on it? The advertising blurbs all sound like it is really a look at folk in the English context with a nod in the direction of Scotland (and Ireland?)

Folk and protest music were very important in Welsh social history at this point (as previously).

siân

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:35 PM

An excellent programme and very enlightening. I am looking forward to part 2, especially as it is about the period when I first became interested in folk music.

The material on Ewan McColl was very interesting. He was a fine singer and songwriter, but he made the same mistake as Cecil Sharp and his generation of imposing on the music what they thought it should be rather than accepting it for what it was.

I enjoyed the follow up programme with its wide diversity of items. I thought the monitor extract about guitars went on too long, though it did highlight the all too common patronising attitudes of the time.

However, I thought there was a huge gap. Plenty about songs and singers, but what about the Instrumental side? To me, there are two strands to traditional music, the songs and the tunes. Recording traditional tunes and styles of playing is every bit as important as recording the songs, yet it got barely a mention. A brief soundclip of Scan Tester and A couple of clips of an Irish Session certainly did not do that side of traditional music justice at all.

As a player rather than a singer, this was a glaring omission to me.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Old Folky
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:32 PM

The White Heather Club certainly wasn't a true representation of a Folk Club, Far too may people were smiling and enjoying themselves, not enough death and disasters, come on BBC get your act together!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: NormanD
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM

BBC info on The White Heater Club: http://tinyurl.com/a2e76

"Burns Night: From 1960, a celebration of the poet's work, with ballads and reels. Featuring Andy Stewart, Jimmy Shand, The Joe Gordon Folk Four and The City of Glasgow Police Male Voice Choir."

The guitar singers must have been the Polis Mail Boys Choir.

norman

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 12:35 PM

sorry I would have sworn I was there

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 10:16 AM

Yes, who were the guitar singers on the "White Heather Club"? Thought I recognised a couple, but I cant put names to them. That programme was rather like the "Black and White Minstrel Show". Terrible at the time, and now unbelievably, terribly terrible.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: NormanD
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:35 AM

eric the red wrote: "It was all good except the White Heather Club, which was appalling..."

Appalling is too good a word to use. It was like watching a car crash of a previous life. Truth is, though, it was mainstream entertainment that used trad. music - and that's the closest TV got to broadcasting folk music in 1960.

The "Tonight" prog. was great, though, with its regulars like Jimmie & Robin, and Cy Grant (?), and, occasionally, visiting American singers. I well remember seeing and hearing for the first time, blues players. One blues pianist, whose name I can't remember, did a song called "West Texas Woman". Not bad for early evening TV.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Kasper
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM

Weren't their what, Les?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:08 AM

Is it true that if you remember the folk revival you probably weren't their?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:20 AM

Party, party? I am still at the last one that started for me in about 1963.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Roland Shanks
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:12 AM

"So, are we at the start of the third folk revival?"

Yes

"What should we do?"

Nothing different from what you're doing now.

"Will it all be over by the time I finish this post?"

No, but if you weren't aware it was happening in the first place don't expect to be invited to the party.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:11 AM

It was all good except the White Heather Club, which was appalling, it illustrated the very worst of Scottish folk music, it's what Billy Connolly used to call ' biscuit tin music,' and who were that awful band
whose only instruments were 3 guitars ?

eric

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 04:20 AM

So, are we at the start of the third folk revival? What should we do? Will it all be over by the time I finish this post?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:49 AM

I found it very interesting to hear from those like Reg, Peter Kennedy, Karl Dallas, etc who have seen this folk thing evolve over the last 50+ years and who understand the various drivers behind it. I thought the programme was excellent in drawing together all the threads that are behind what we do today and why. The follow-up was good and I especially enjoyed the Coppers and Harry Cox - how brave of the BBC to actually play a whole song by a source singer! I enjoyed the beatnik bit too as context setting (changing world, challenging old values etc) but thought it went on a bit and could have done with another song. Hopefully a lot of people will have seen the prog and thought "I didn't realise that - that's interesting - how can I find out more?"

It will be interesting to see whether the programmes have any impact on the great British public and the media.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:29 AM

Excellent to see Reg Hall being consulted. Now, if they let him control an hour or two of folk on TV we might see a bit of real folk, instead of innovatora" with guitars and stuff.Not that I dont play guitar myself, but there is a wonderful folk tradition in England which is largely ignored(especially by "folk" TV programmes, "folk" festivals, and "folk" clubs). Long live Reg Hall and folk enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Roland Shanks
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:28 PM

"Pile of arrogant ill-informed poo"

Do you really think that it was ill informed? - its an honest question but I find it hard to see how anyone could come to that conclusion. I also can't understand how you can find the tone of the programme arrogant.

I thought it was hard to find fault with anything in the programme and I found it superb viewing.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk programme
From: NormanD
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:32 PM

Two excellent hours. Folk Brittania was a great overview; it put the music in its rightful social context and gave good emphasis to previously under-recognised musical sources: Irish and travellers. The following weeks are boding well.

It'll all get criticised, of course: too much of this -- nothing on that -- not him again! -- etc. But the best I've seen for a long time.

The second hour was the usual mixed bag, but there were some amazingly good gems - Andy Irvine for one. The old Tonight piece on the Newquay beatniks of 1960 was wonderful. As Greg says above - Wizz Jones was classic. Where did he learn "Penny's Farm" from (rewritten to take the piss out of the Newquay Burgermeisters)??

Norman

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

Pile of arrogant ill-informed poo

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:18 PM

My picture kept breaking up. Did this happen to anyone else or is it my stuff playing up? New to digital!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:16 PM

Hilary, you need to tune your recorder into the freeview on a spare channel. Play with it when you are not desperate to record something special.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:11 PM

You're maligning "Folk at the BBC". Alan Whicker at Newquay interviewing the beatniks and Wizz Jones was a classic. And wasnt Robin Hall cute?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,starfish
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 05:36 PM

We enjoyed the folk britannia programme, but so far (1/2 hour in) the following programme "Folk at the BBC" is just a rehashed repeat.
Let's hope for an improvemnet next week.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: My guru always said
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM

Am watching right now, it's excellent!! Some friends were filmed at a club night & may be somewhere in this series, so I'll try not to miss.

Trouble is, I haven't figured out how to record Freeview onto either DVD or Video yet, must be the wiring tangle..... Any hints?

Subject: BBC 4 folk program
From: s&r
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:39 AM

Tonight


Stu