BBC 4 folk program

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Jamie
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:49 PM

"'Outlaws and Dreamers' was the most self indulgent rubbish and demonstrates what happens when you start to believe your own hype.

I nodded off during Martin Carthy."

So did I .....

Re. Gaughan's 'Outlaws and Dreamers' - someone wrote this comment ("self indulgent rubbish") word for word on the Google forum !!? For the record, the words of this song, other than a brief reference to '35 years' are NOT about Gaughan himself, but a tribute to all those he admires as 'links in the chain'. In this age of feeble pop lyrics it may be difficult to believe, but some song lyrics are not always a figment of the writer's imagination. Sometimes the writer does reflect reality and I do know that Dick Gaughan HAS spent many years of his life fighting for human rights rather than simply singing about it. Allow him just one song in his repertoire that actually reflects this fact. Other than in this song, Gaughan is tremendously modest about what he does with his time when he is not on-stage.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:47 PM

Gaughan is stuck in another time...Industrial socialism has failed.
The "working man" is no more and never will be again.

I was a Communist before Gaughan..when we still believed that work had a virtue in itself.

Most people now see that a life of slavery from cradle to grave, be it under State or private control is nothing to sing about.

There is another way.....Ake

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM

I really enjoyed the most of it, especially dear old Chris Wood with his double fiddles on 'Movalong'. I don't think I could have done any better than any of them, so I wouldn't criticise 'em, even if I wanted to.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Jamie
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:34 PM

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:11 PM

What annoyed me most about the last "show" was the way it was produced..like a rock concert.
Folk doesn't sit well in this type of setting and the performers looked nervous and uncomfortable.
Some of the performances proved why folk music has lost it's way and lost the hearts of the wider public.

The older singers like Carthy and Gaughan have lost the "spirit"
Men of their time, now Dinosaurs.

Not sure what a 'Folk' concert on the Barbican stage should look like ...? The Barbican is THE most awful venue for performers of any type.

Agree with what you say re. Carthy - methinks he is still lauded mainly due to his survival and his offspring's success. As for Dick Gaughan - I wholeheartedly disagree. If he has lost his 'spirit' then god help the rest! His playing and voice get better each time I hear him.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:11 PM

What annoyed me most about the last "show" was the way it was produced..like a rock concert.
Folk doesn't sit well in this type of setting and the performers looked nervous and uncomfortable.
Some of the performances proved why folk music has lost it's way and lost the hearts of the wider public.

The older singers like Carthy and Gaughan have lost the "spirit"
Men of their time, now Dinosaurs.

One bright shining light...wee Karine Polwart....Her voice and delivery would have made Ewan proud .   Singing the "Moving on song" in the traditional manner ...lovely ..Ake

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 02:42 PM

The Billy Bragg (sings Woody Guthrie badly) folk show.

BTW Did you know that Woody's daughter asked Billy Bragg to work on Woody's unfinished songs? *Smiles*

I thought that Macoll's songs were the best thing - and the little of what we saw of Robb Johnson was good.

'Outlaws and Dreamers' was the most self indulgent rubbish and demonstrates what happens when you start to believe your own hype.

I nodded off during Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: fat B****rd
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 06:01 PM

Just finished watching the show and have been checking out EM and Woody Guthrie. Looking forward to next week but still basically a jazzbluesrock'n'rollingblueeyedsoulboy.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: fat B****rd
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM

Billy Bragg introducing "various artists" tonight and Eliza Carthy and other ladies next week.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:51 PM

Just a reminder (like you need it)final instalment tonight 9pm

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 06:48 PM

They probably had to taylor the script/history to suit the film that was still left in the archives. If that was the case, then it was bound not to give an objective picture of what was really happening.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM

Johnny Pandrich - Panhandle - Handle. It was a nickname. I knew his brother Brian who was a lovely man and a great fiddler

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: David C. Carter
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:14 AM

The Levee Breakers were mentioned earlier.Does anyone know if they made an album?I have a single of "Babe,I'm Leaving You".


David

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punkfolkkrocker
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:44 AM

hi again sil..

i'd be curious enough to risk a few quid on a donovan gig ticket
if he ever plays theatre in town where i live..

by the time i was 16 i realised i could'nt be patient enough
to learn to fingerpick as good as him,
so went electric and mastered power chords and riffs instead..
never looked back since..

but in the early - mid 70's the likes of donovan and lindisfarnes
media and pop-chart high profile success
introdued me and many of my generation to folk music
and a lifetimes appreciation of its multivarious genres and personalities..

so even though i despise glossy lifestyle media magazine culture,
fair play if the current trend for filling a few column inches
with hack journalistic 'intro to folk' articles
has a similar influence on todays emerging teenage music enthusiasts..

ps.. i reckon there must be more than a few home recorded DVDs of that
BBC4 donovan gig floating around within reach of mudcatters by now..

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:21 AM

OK, perhaps the series was too short, to Anglo-centric, it missed obvious major contributors to the folk movement like xxxxxxx (insert your preference here) etc etc.

I am nevertheless grateful for this pittance. After all, it's more than we had last year in terms of a review of history of British folk. And in my case, despite the shortcomings of the third installment (I agree with many of the points made above), it managed after a fashion to fill the gap left from my 20 years absence from the scene (1979-1999). Well, perhaps not so much "fill the gap" as "tie some loose ends". In particular, the links between folk and punk had been a mystery to me.

In this context, Billy Bragg's statement early on was very poignant for me. I mean the bit about "punk destroying the past because they wanted to start from a zero base, but folk being so resilient that it started to pop up through the rubble" (my words).

Yes, I noted Jim's comment about Martin, but I took it to be a little tongue-in-cheek, and not aimed so much at Martin himself, but rather at those who are "more royal than the king" in such matters.

Jim's comment about the new rejuvenated scene happening under the radar of many of the old folkies also rings true, and it worries me. First, as a club organiser: You see, even the most "liberal" and "openminded" of our clubs which are keen to "open their doors to the newcomers", they tend to do so with an attitude of magnanimity - when it is they (the clubs themselves) that should be seeking recognition from the newcomers. I will be thinking hard about this in the coming weeks.

Jim's comment also worried me on a personal level - those who know my cirumstances will understand. I may need to refocus. It's hard to be a new kid on the block when you're not a kid, after all. Or, to parody the old song:

"Nobody loves a folkie when he's fifty..."

But thanks for the vote of confidence, Giok!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 07:30 AM

UK 6th form colleges capitalize on a thriving demand for
'performance arts' and 'music tech' courses..

this accounts for large numbers of teenage wannabes
looking for any public venues to parade their singing/songwriting talents
as they hone their craft in preparation for examinations
and the next series of auditions for TV's "Pop idol"..

also weekend newspaper colour supplements
and other superficial market-led aspirational lifestyle magazines
have for whatever reasons recently determined that folk music
is 'in'..

hopefully as a by-product,
folk club culture will benefit for the future...

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sil
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 07:07 AM

Hi, punkfolkrocker,

been to Abbey Gael Folk festival, or heard of it? Was great.

You pretty good with guitar then?

You taped folked night or know anyone who has? MUST have a copy, anyone?

Sil

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 04:26 AM

Johnny Handle??? Didn't he used to be Ewan MacColl - Oh no - it was John Pandritch - wonder why he changed his name - or is it relevent to anything?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 04:19 AM

So we still don't know who the narrator was?? Herself keeps asking me, I need to reassure her I'm still omnipotent (OMNIPOTENT, 'Spaw!).
Can 'Catter & BBC staffer Ralphie help??

RtS

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Chris Amos
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 02:12 AM

I don't know if it has anything to do with the Britfolk series but I have been noticing more young people in clubs recently, I went to Orpington last week and there were half a dozen of them, sang songs they had written themselves, and sang unaccompanied, very good and most refreshing.

Folk needs new blood otherwise when we all get carted off to the care homes there will be no one left, what the next generation make of folk is up to them, it is not up to us to tell them that they are doing it wrong.

Chris

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:39 PM

Going to be difficult, but I have PM'd a few suggestions.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:18 AM

Already done so, Effsee! He's magic and has been really helpful, but I want to get as broad a picture as possible, and that includes the views of those who were less heavily involved in the revival too.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Effsee
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:37 PM

Shepherdlass, you'd be better seeking oot Johnnie Handle, he kens aal aboot what's happened in the NE since the Daawn o' Time, canny lad.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:25 PM

hi sill..

never saw donovan in concert..

definitely wanted to when i was about 14 or 15,
but closest i got was seeing him on tv
and trying to track down the italian 'joker' lable live boootleg
[but the japanese live LP was always way too expensive for my pocket money]

i remember taping a live special off the TV onto cheap cassette recorder
[mic held in front of tv speaker job]

but im pretty sure it was a more conventional concert
than the errrmmm.. [drug addled ???] nursery school singalong presentation
on BBC4 the other night.

i dont think i ever saw that show before..

i dont mind admitting its cos of donovan that i asked my mum and dad
for a guitar for my 15th birthday.

and i was still listening to his best LPs [but in secret]
when i was 17 and in my first college punk band..

i think i gave up on buying any more of his records
after the "7-Tease" LP..

Donovan was definitely an important inspiration for me to discover
other genres of folkmusic that influenced his songs & recordings.


interesting to see latest editions of his CDs are remastered
with masses of extra rare tracks..

but 30 years on now, i'd have think carefully about the prospects of listening..
to the 'previously unreleased' stuff..

i just wonder how helpfull that astonishingly twee 1972 concert
would now be in attracting a new generation of teenagers to folk..??

BTW, the BBC4 Pentangle gig afterwards was superb !

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: shepherdlass
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:26 PM

Folk music and folk music history surely don't HAVE to be mutually exclusive. Some of the clips especially of the "source singers" in episode 1 of Folk Britannia were breathtaking (wish there'd been more, but possibly that's as far as the Beeb archives stretch) - and made it well worth ploughing through some more controversial editorial sections.

In this thread, greg stephens made a great point about ceilidh bands and the like who perform for parties, municipal "dos" and the like. They're entertaining people too and probably conform more to a folk context than anything else now available.

Therefore, please can I ask anyone - ANYONE - performer or punter or both! - from NE England who has recollections of the nascent ceilidh band circuit before 1975 (or the more traditional dance bands like the Cheviot Ranters that had been going on around the area for much longer) to PM me? I'd like to write their experiences into my own little folk music history project. Which - try as I might to avoid it - will be every bit as editorialized as anyone else's. That's how it goes, I guess.

Also, "Guest, wordy" - please would you PM me and let me know if I can ask you about your experiences round the NE folk scene?   

Sorry for drifting off topic here, but, hell, you've got to take every opportunity you can get!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sil
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM

Linda Kelly,
any further on attempt getting a copy of programmes for Tom Lewis?
Please, let me know.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sil
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:27 PM

proper fan then, are ya?

When's the last time you've seen Don in concert then?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sinpelo
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:56 PM

Seems to me there's folk music and folk music history. Folk clubs were where people took turns to entertain each other. That is the essence which, to my mind, defines whatever genre of music performed as 'folk'. Yes. They booked guest artists as well but that essential element remains.

Pure traditional folk music (ie; when author and origin is lost in the mists of time) worked as folk songs when they were first composed because the issues and themes applied to most of the people likely to hear them. This isn't entirely the case any more. The folk tradition was born of musicians who were singer / songwriters at the time.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:43 PM

mind you around that time donovan did confound all expectations
and pop up singing duet with alice cooper on 'billion $ babies' LP..

now that was cool..

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

ps.. the mrs is an infant school teacher and trained to withstand
childrens singalong sessions..

but donovan in concert from 1972 completely fucked her head up!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:30 PM

yes.. sorry, it was embarasing shite !
made me and the mrs squirm..
she broke out in uncontrollable hysterical laughter..
i had to try to justify to her why i was such a big donovan fan
when i was in my early-mid teens..
actually about the time that concert was recorded..

i'd enthusiasticaly collected something like 20 of his LPs in the days preceding punk rock..


nowadays, i'll still stand by the mid 60's mickie most produced acid pop/rock material..

of course, some of the early 60's ballads..

and his "open roads' folk rock LP is patchy but ok..

but in retrospect..

watching the performance seen on BBC 4 from the "cosmic wheels" period 'come back' ..

well .. thank fuck for punk rock !

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,sil
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:13 PM

Hi, any Donovan Fans out there?

Anybody watched DONOVAN IN CONCERT
Sunday 12 February 12.10am-1am (Saturday night)?

Sil

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:19 AM

Anybody remember Ron Geesin singing into his piano, undressing it and playing the strings, and doing other silly things?
Talking about crossed legs, Mac McGann who used to be with the Levee Breakers, and is on Ralph McTell's 1st LP used to cross his legs at the knee, and then keep time tapping the floor with the foot of the top leg. I've tried it and it isn't easy.
Giok

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: David C. Carter
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:03 AM

Giok:You just reminded me of Bert Jansch,down at the Scots Hoose in London.He'd sit down,right ankle went on to left knee,then he would proceed to sing into the sound-hole of his guitar.We loved it!

David

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:43 AM

Glok has hit the nail squarely on the head, saying we should all be grateful for the publicity. It is a "given"(as they all say nowadays) that whenever you read in the papers about something you know about, you spot that they get all the facts wrong. So, given that, there is no point in getting too wound up if a journalistic account of the folk revival may generate some feelings along the "Listen to your man talking bollix" line.
   At the very least the programmes are generating interest, and this is currently reflected in the music press. So whether your taste runs to Harry Cox, the Waterson-Rusby family, Vashti Bunyan, Jim Moray or "twisted folk"(what the hell is that?)....let's count our lucky stars it got on the TV. Mind you, it wasn't on proper TV, it ws BBC4, so there's a way to go yet.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:26 AM

The thing I find with a lot of singer songwriters is their introspection and more often than not the unsingability [new word?] of their songs, you almost feel as if you are intruding by listening.
Then there are glorious exceptions of course like our own El Greko, George writes songs that will be around for a long time as they are about the human condition, which is what to me most traditional folk songs are about. He also writes sing-a-long songs and encourages us to join in.
On the whole though, "folk music" seems to be going through one of it's periodic renaissances for which we should all be grateful. Who knows one day we may even get a folk club up in my neck of the woods.
Giok

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:46 AM

wordy:
Nobody much ever minded when a singer songwriter dropped into to a folk club and sang a song. It was ,of course, the ideal environment. And some of the songs, as you point out, will be the folksongs of the future. The objections tended to arise when the club was taken over by singer song-writers( sometimes a 100% takeover as I described in a recent post).
    A pigeon-fanciers society can accommodate(and enjoy, and learn from) the occasional visitor with a budgerigar or vulture. But when the poor old pigeon-fanciers who satrted the club become a tiny minority and get called bird-nazis, it becomes a bit sad.
    But of course the folk world must innovate and write songs. The old definition of folk distinguished it from other music by the fact that the music must be changed and taken into public ownership by communal action. If it wasn't recreaTED, IT WAsn't folk. Preservation is anti-folk.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Effsee
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 09:32 PM

In three hour long programmes this project was only ever going to scratch the surface......as it turned out the scratches were barely visible!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: sinpelo
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 06:56 PM

"Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

Pile of arrogant ill-informed poo "

I'm impressed! My poo is just smelly.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 06:51 PM

To me personally, it's songs that tell stories in some sort of historical context. Modern country lyrics and pop lyrics in general are just endless recycled cliches and I think it's that sort of writing the gets the snigger snogwriter response. It's lazy mass production. However there are songs out there that have the certain something in terms of lyrical observation that raises them above the mundane and fixes them in their time so that they will be of interest to the future. In many ways these songs are like the archeology of the future, there is something solid about them that means they are preserved and preservable artifacts rather than the throwaway perishables.When re-discovered they may well be called folk songs.
Maybe it's Morrisey, maybe it's not. Time will tell. But it could equally be one of those songs from one of those ten guitars. I agree it's like panning for gold, but the hope of finding that one nugget is worth a bit more than the cheap sneering dismissal the modern singer/songwriter too often gets in the folk world.
I agree it's become a thing far too many people think they can do, and very very few ever produce anything of value, but I suppose I'm glad so many try to express themselves in song. Not everyone who paints is a Monet, not everyone who writes songs is a Cole Porter or a Richard Thompson, but why don't we encourage their attempts with an indulgent smile rather than with an easy put down. They do no harm to the human race.
Everyone starts somewhere!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: lady penelope
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 04:33 PM

"As to Redmax, I don't get brassed off if the songs are well crafted and the lyrics incorporate the reasons why the wife has left because of the way we live today. If it's flim flam "poor me" it ain't folk, but if it's social comment, using divorce as a vehicle for expression and an evocation of our historical time, then, to me at least, it is."

Just wondering Wordy, why does a folk song have to have "social comment"? Most traditional songs I know have as much social comment as anything in the 'top 40' and can be as self absorbed as anything by Morrisey.........

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:09 PM

200 by the way.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

Last saturday morning a small child retuned my freeview box for me as I am too incompetent to do it myself, and so I watched part two later that day. Gregg's point raised umpteen posts ago where he quotes the great Henry Ayrtons view of folk as 'parallel universes'makes the most sense to me. It was great to see a bit of Northumbrian piping in there, which was quickly followed by a bit of Nick Drake, neither music had bugger all to do with the other except that the BBC has classified them both as folk. A HUGE subject methinks.
Ps: I too think Donovan is under-rated, and although he is a bit of a johnny-come-lately' I would rather people sang Billy Bragg songs instead of some American bloke called Dylan.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:06 PM

Nigel could usually be found in the Station pub Kings Heath particularly on Sunday lunchtimes where he used to run a session. Haven't been up that way for a while but maybe he still does.

Frank

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,GUEST (Lyn)
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM

In response to GUEST(Sean) 9th Feb.
The researchers always ignore Nigel Denver I think because he is not 'establishment', in fact he got banned from the BBC back in the 60's after making the Scottish Replican Songs record. It is a shame because Nigel is a font much knowledge when it comes to traditional folk music. He is similarly ignored by researchers for books and articles.
In response to PeterK(Fionn)- Nigel is still very much alive and still living in Birmingham (he's not difficult to find - try the telephone directory.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM

I'm very happy to have parallel folk worlds. It's just that when they collide the sparks seem to fly. For me there's good and bad in all forms and being a bit of a songwriter myself I get very pissed off with the "Snigger/snogwriter" or, as above, "sogwriter" tag being endlessly wheeled out. it's just as lazy and annoying as when trad folk elicist "arran sweaters and sandals". We know these are not reflections of the actuality.
Lets' declare a moritorium!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 11:25 AM

Right on Greg

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 09:00 AM

"singer sogwriter" - that just about says it all, Greg. Too soggy by far, most of them.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 08:34 AM

I realised this particlar change(singer sogwriter) in the folk scene most forcibly when I went to a club in Manchester in the late 80's or early 90's; and realised that every single song that had been sung was a modern song by an identifiable author. And I thought that this was a pretty serious change in the concept of folk, when a whole evening in a folk club didnt contain a single song which would have been called a folk song, only a generation before.
   And the additional thought arose, which ties in with a couple of my recent posts, that there were then parallel worlds of folk chugging along: nothing to with the world of folk clubs, but where traditional song and tunes were thriving mightily. A most peculiat rurn round. when an organisation set up to celbrate one kind of music had completely eliminated that music over a period of 30 years, while still using the same concept name.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 06:36 AM

Well I went to a Folk Club in the home counties about a month ago, and it was nearly ½ and hour into the evening before I heard a song I knew.
Then again that could be something to do with the fact that I hardly ever go to Folk Clubs, as we don't have any up here in the Highlands of Scotland. There are a few sessions but they do tend to be unrelentingly diddly diddly.
Giok

Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 05:59 AM

Sorry, above by me.