BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

Well, I must say I'm disappointed. When I saw the thread title I thought we were going to get the post-McGrathian, and very pertinent, question, "Are atheists really atheists or are they all really just agnostic?" Now that might have made a much better thread!

Not keen on this: I would venture to say that an atheist rejects theism and an agnostic sees no clear evidence one way or the other.

I don't think a genuine atheist has rejected anything as such. It's more a matter of weighing up evidence for the existence of God, finding it severely wanting and, as a result, living one's life in spite of all the brouhaha surrounding him. Oh, and having a damn fine argument with believers every now and then! I don't find "agnostic" a very useful term. It covers far too wide a spectrum for a single little word. There are those who can't be bothered, those are are confused by the whole thing, those are don't like to say there's no God out of fear, and the almost-certains, in which category I might include myself and, definitely, Richard Dawkins. "Atheist" is a pithy little word which those of us at our end of the spectrum accept by way of expedience only.

In that regard:

There are many definitions of atheism, but I think the most general one is 'a lack of belief that a deity (or deities) exist'.

The trouble with this is that I'm supposed to lack something (all together now... ;-) ) I certainly take a radically alternative view of the universe to that of believers, that's for sure, but I'm not sure I want to accept that I lack something which they don't. Could be that, by ditching faith, I've gained more than I lost. Who's to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:56 AM

All these points have been made before and are discussed in the current other Atheist thread. Let's close this one... especially if it was started by someone using more than one name.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Newport Boy
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:44 AM

There are many definitions of atheism, but I think the most general one is 'a lack of belief that a deity (or deities) exist'. This is more positive than the agnostic uncertainty of the existence of a deity. In this view, there is no 'atheist philosophy/belief', which I suggest would be more correctly called 'antitheism'.

The question as to whether it's all over when you cease to function is more complicated - is it necessary to believe in a deity to believe in ghosts? (I don't know - I don't believe in either.) Does a deity have to be 'church-defined'? If so, what constitutes a church?

One problem with all these discussions is in the definition of terms. I have an understanding of 'faith', 'belief', 'god', 'religion' and 'church' which would not be shared by many believers of various faiths and religions, whatever they believe and whether or not they belong to or attend a church.

Another problem is that people of my persuasion argue from a base of logic, rather than the base of faith or belief used by those who have either. In an argument, you can come to a conclusion on the basis of logic, or on the basis of emotion, but it's not easy to come to a conclusion on a mixture of the two.

And that ends my foray into arguments about religion. I listened to and participated in many arguments over 60 years ago and came to my personal conclusion. I've seen no reason to change that conclusion since, and I have no interest in converting others to my point of view. I'm happy to accept that others have different views, and for them to live their lives in line with their views, provided they don't try and impose their values or lifestyle on me, for that way lies dictatorship and repression.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:44 AM

theism is the belief in one or more god(s) and seems to include some form of religious belief system. Deism is the believe that the "proof" of the existence of god(s) is evident in the natural world.

I would venture to say that an atheist rejects theism and an agnostic sees no clear evidence one way or the other.

The reason why so we encounter so many people opposed to Christian religion is because we in western societies are mainly Christian. If a Christian rejects Judism, Islam, Buddism, Confuscism, etc. they are not regarded as heretics or atheists by other Christians, but are approved of for that rejection of what is regarded as false beliefs.

Only when someone who is expected to believe in Christianity admits that they reject that belief are they labeled an atheist by other Christians... even that person actually does not believe in any religion. It's OK to reject the beliefs of others, just not theirs... human nature at work.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:42 AM

I suppose the difference between Christianity and a n other cult is, for those of us living in The UK, that bishops have a right to be represented in the upper house, vote on legislation and use their influence to fetter equality whilst ensuring equality legislation allows religious organisations to discriminate on gender and sexual orientation.

That such disgraceful antics are convenient for other cults is of course serendipity.

Im not really an atheist. If it describes me therefore I am but whilst the term denotes a stance on belief, don't presume...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM

One name, eh guest?

Rap, you wrongly assume everyone first has a religion. That there is such a thing as "your religion".

The 'anti' people are, I believe, pissed off at a religion. In effect, saying "I'm mad at God, so I won't believe in him". That's not atheism, because they still have a god, albeit one they're pissed off at.

I don't think a person who is an atheist needs to get any specific religion involved. And there are loads of things in the universe to be amazed at which aren't gods and don't have personalities that one can worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:57 AM

I'm pretty sure that you can't be atheist unless you are talking about a religion, such as Islam or Judaism or Christianity, which claims that there IS a "God." If your religion worships a "life force" and celebrates the living things around you it'd be pretty hard to be an atheist, I suspect.

People confuse materialism with atheism as well. If you believe it's all over when your biological shell no longer functions, that's materialism. If you believe that there is no church-defined "God", that's atheism. Yes, they can go hand-in-hand, but they are not the same.

Subject: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Zabbar
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

Are they just anti-christian? It seems to me that a significant proportion of atheists (speaking only from personal experience rather than having a statistical source) commonly rail against Christianity in general, and against the perceived hypocrisy/ perceived lack of questioning of Christians in particular whilst ignoring dozens of other faiths and beliefs. Yes there may be the odd foray into Islam or Judaism but it seems pretty much every other religion/faith/belief gets off unscathed?

Is this simply because of familiarity with Christianity in the West? Or have the (some would say) un-christian actions and("you are going to hell because you don't believe what I do") stance of much of the organised church and its ministers etc. over the years, brought an anti-christian sentiment to the fore, and almost by default produced "atheists" who in reality have a larger percentage of anti-christian/anti-abrahamic about them rather than purely atheist philosophy/belief?