BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 02:18 PM

It is to do with me personally ,because i paid taxes in the uk and receive a uk pension, and i like many other taxpayers who live abroad have a valid interst in how the country is run.
like many others i pay tax on everything i buy,in the country i live in, and when i visit the uk pay tax on what i buy then.
i alsp pay direct interest tax on any savings i have in the country i live in, if i have any savings.
so i pay tax in two countries.That is fair IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 12:50 PM

Good point Nigel, something that hadn’t occurred to me. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 12:10 PM

BWM: Can someone please explain why someone who lives outside the UK should have any right to vote in UK elections?

One reason might be that they have a pension derived from working in the UK, and so have a valid interest in how this country is run.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 11:23 AM

….(or, IMHO, the unfairness)…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 11:22 AM

But that’s not what I asked - my question was about the fairness (or, IMHO, the fairness) of people who have chosen to abandon the UK, and take up residence and, presumably, pay their taxes in another country being allowed to continue voting in UK elections.

And please don’t try to make this about you as you so often do - it’s SFA to do with you personally, it’s a genuine question about emigrants from this country in general.

Can anyone explain why it’s fair, because I don’t see it as such?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 10:23 AM

Backwoodsman
Details

The Common Travel Area (CTA) is a long-standing arrangement between the UK, the Crown Dependencies (Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man) and Ireland that pre-dates both British and Irish membership of the EU and is not dependent on it.

Under the CTA, British and Irish citizens can move freely and reside in either jurisdiction and enjoy associated rights and privileges, including the right to work, study and vote in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services.

The UK and Irish governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in May 2019 reaffirming our commitment to maintain the CTA, and the associated rights and privileges, in all circumstances. On signing the MoU, both governments released a Joint Statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 10:15 AM

it is a reciprocal arrangement,BETWEEN ireland and uk, that existed before either joined the COmMON MARKET.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 09:35 AM

Can someone please explain why someone who lives outside the UK should have any right to vote in UK elections?

I’ve opened a large packet of popcorn…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 09:27 AM

Voting if you live overseas

If you are a British or eligible Irish citizen living abroad who has previously lived in the UK or been registered to vote in the UK, you can register to vote in UK Parliamentary elections. 

A number of changes to voting from overseas now apply: 

You can register to vote if you previously lived in the UK but were not registered to vote. 

You can register to vote in the UK no matter how long ago you left or were last registered to vote.

Your overseas declaration is now valid for three years, lasting until 1 November in the third year after it takes effect (for example, if your declaration takes effect on 1 March 2024, it will expire on 1 November 2026).

You can now register online (not available in Northern Ireland). 

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 04:15 AM

Thanks for the PM Dick and I understand why you want to keep it private.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 04:07 AM

Heard this yesterday on BBC Radio 4

The City That Stayed at Home

"At the last general election, three of the four seats with the lowest turnout, where the lowest number of eligible people came out to vote, were in Hull.

Alex Forsyth sits down with people who stay at home on election day to find out why.

She begins in Hull East, the seat which had the lowest turnout in the UK at the last general election, visiting Marfleet, a ward with low turnout at local elections. She explores how a pattern of not voting is repeated in other parts of the city. Alex goes on to examine the complex reasons for not voting and speaks to those who believe key events in the city's history might provide part of the answer."

++
Not the most encouraging programme. I have the feeling that the turnout next week might not be great. I hope that I am wrong, as I do not think that low turnouts are a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 03:29 AM

The Sandman wrote 'She is an individual with a large following she said she would not be voting labour, she may not affect how you vote but she may influence others,'

Meanwhile J K Rowling wrote 'An independent candidate is standing in my constituency who’s campaigning to clarify the Equality Act. Perhaps that’s where my X will have to go on July 4th. As long as Labour remains dismissive and often offensive towards women fighting to retain the rights their foremothers thought were won for all time, I’ll struggle to support them. The women who wouldn’t wheesht didn’t leave Labour. Labour abandoned them.'

J K Rowling - My article for The Times on Labour and women’s rights

++
Sometimes casting a vote comes down to a single issue. I have no doubt that there are other women who share Rowling's concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 03:04 AM

Do you vote in the UK or the RoI Dick? Just out of interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 02:46 AM

She is an individual with a large following she said she would not be voting labour, she may not affect how you vote but she may influence others,
I think that voting for a party that may improve trade treaties between uk and europe is the most important issue so she will not affect how i vote

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 08:02 AM

…otherwise, I enjoyed her books very much, especially those published under her pseudonym, Robert Galbraith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 08:00 AM

She’s not a politician, she’s an individual, with her own views on all sorts of things - most of her views which I’ve heard about I agree with, a few I don’t. Why would one person’s personal beliefs affect how I vote?

FWIW, I’ve already voted, my vote was based on 77 years of experience, heavily influenced by the behaviour and utterances of political parties and individual politicians since approximately 2015.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:34 AM

j k Rowling and labour, are her comments going to affect anyone here and how they vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 04:45 AM

Absolutely my pleasure, Doug! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 04:29 AM

Thanks BWM. Much appreciated.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:52 AM

Our voting system does not help either. First past the post is fine if you just have 2 parties to choose from. With our present system we will most likely end up with a government that the majority of voters have not voted for. Even when we have had governments in the past with a 'super majority' of seats, the majority of voters will not have voted for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:26 AM

Voter confidence is low due to the corruption, lying and scandals that have beset the commons since 2019. The right wing media have exacerbated the situation by excusing the actions of the vile bunch of shysters with a "they are all the same" campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:18 AM

An item from the BBC 12.6.24

Voter confidence at record low, says report

"Trust and confidence in the UK’s politics and election system has never been worse, according to analysis by the electoral expert, Sir John Curtice.

His report for the National Centre for Social Research finds record numbers of voters saying they “almost never” trust governments to put country before party or politicians to tell the truth when in a tight corner.

“The public is as doubtful as it has ever been about the trustworthiness and efficacy of the country’s system of government and the people who comprise it,” Sir John says."

×+

Voter apathy and low turnouts are worrying. I think that the turnout for this coming election is not going to be great. Let's hope that they accept my 20 year old photo id when I go to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:00 AM

I’m amused to hear the Lying Scottish Viper (for the benefit of Doug and Nigel, that’s Gove) on BBC Breakfast just now, squealing like a stuck pig about how dangerous it would be if Labour win a super-majority, and how they would be able to do whatever they liked without an effective opposition - ‘votes for 16-year-olds’ (gasp! shock! horror!), ‘tax rises’ (again!) - priceless, coming from the party who increased taxes to the highest level ever) - yadda yadda. That’s despite Labour’s fully costed manifesto.

Funny thing though, we never heard the Tories squealing like stuck pigs when they won a super-majority based on nothing more than a Johnson/Cummings three-word-slogan, did we?

They really are defecating building materials!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 05:37 PM

Care from cradle to grave certainly seems to have fell by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 02:11 PM

I think I am correct in saying that Prescriptions used to be free, that Dental Care used to be free and that Eye Tests used to be free for all.

Before a pendant puts forward that some people still get these free, I am aware of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 11:34 AM

The Tory Chancellor, a former Health Minister, co-authored a policy document setting out how to privatise the NHS. If that isn’t an indicator of their attitude to the NHS, I don’t know what is.

Some interesting reading here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 11:02 AM

I sincerely hope that you are right, Nigel, but suspect the worst. The defunding of the NHS seems to be a direct precurser to declaring that the NHS is not working and needs to be privatised. Just opinion of course but given the record of the last government I think it is a fear grounded in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 09:25 AM

Two Tories on BBC's 'Politics Live' today, constantly talking over and shouting down the Labour rep and, rather than putting forward their own party's policies, just repeating their scare-mongering 'Tax rises under Labour' nonsense over and over and over again. The Labour guy, on the other hand, was calm, and was a shining example of how to conduct a discussion.

It's as plain as the nose on your face that they're scared shitless, they're desperate, and they know their corrupt, incompetent party of the greedy, and selfish is, quite rightly, absolutely fucked.

They've obviously realised that 'Stop The Boats' hasn't conned the voters the way 'Get Brexit Done' did - I wonder when, in their desperation, they'll come up with their next three-word slogan. It's got to be imminent...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 08:00 AM

I am thinking more long term than that, Nigel.

Reform is putting a tax break for people with private health cover into their manifesto. Is it really too much of a stretch to think the Conservatives might do so next time if Reform are still a threat to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 07:44 AM

All this talk of the Conservative Party wanting to nationalise the NHS.
They've been in power for 14 years (as Labour so frequently remind us).
The NHS has not been nationalised.
Perhaps this is just a Labour 'scare story'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 04:22 AM

I’m astonished it hasn’t already appeared in the Tory manifesto. It’s their clear intention to privatise the NHS - hell, the latest Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote a book explaining how to do it!

They loathe any enterprise they can’t enrich themselves from and, for that reason only, they are hell-bent on privatising the NHS the same way they privatised so much else of our nationalised industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 03:07 AM

It must be around a decade ago that I said if I wanted to privatise the NHS, one of the earliest steps would be tax relief on private health insurance. Here is a clipping from Reform's "contract":


Tax Relief of 20% on all Private Healthcare
and Insurance
This will improve care for all by relieving pressure
on the NHS. Those who rely on the NHS will enjoy
faster, better care. Independent healthcare capacity
will grow rapidly, providing competition and
reducing costs.


Fortunately there is no way such a policy will come into play yet, but it is good example of how such an idea will be spun. Come the next election, I could see it appearing in the Conservative Manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 02:15 AM

As the election campaign progresses, it’s becoming blindingly obvious how little the Tories have got to offer - they are relying almost totally on scare tactics and trying to distract from their own shortcomings by talking constantly about Labour. You know they’re desperate when they roll Shapps out to propagate their lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 03:28 PM

Ah, looking again they have put up a new version of the manifesto. However, I can post the one that was in place when the launch completed, if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 03:23 PM

A google search for reform party logo gives several versions. The one noted above does not appear to be the current accepted version

It is the one on the "manifesto" I downloaded from their website immediately after the launch.

Yes, I read it, along with all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 02:50 PM

I just posted this on Faceache. Preaching to the converted here in the main but you never know...

"In a couple of weeks we have what is probably the most important election for a long time. Before you cast your vote just remember this. There is nothing more important than the health and welfare of the people. For the last 14 years our NHS has been asset stripped and sold off to make a quick profit for the already rich. No-one can fix it quickly but make sure that the damage does not continue. Get rid of the spivs and conmen that have been selling off YOUR NHS. It may be too late for us old gits but give your children and grandchildren a better chance at being looked after. Don't believe the bollocks that the health service is beyond repair. It was built after a world war. It can be rebuilt now."

Thank you for reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 08:37 AM

Look at their website, Nigel - https://www.reformparty.uk/ - I held my nose and saw that if you scroll down to the "Congratulation Alex Wilson" graphic, the mentioned "Reform UK / Brexit Party" is still in use on their website. WTF does it matter what it says anyway though? They are not a political party but a limited company formed by the self-aggrandising feeble excuse for a man that is Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 08:08 AM

I find it interesting that the logo for Reform says 'Reform UK' in the centre but 'The Brexit Party' in a surrounding circle.

A google search for reform party logo gives several versions. The one noted above does not appear to be the current accepted version.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 07:47 AM

Leopards don’t change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 05:36 AM

I find it interesting that the logo for Reform says 'Reform UK' in the centre but 'The Brexit Party' in a surrounding circle.

This suggests to me they are going for a deliberate ambiguity to get as many Brexit Party voters as thy can while claiming to be a different party, or alternatively at some future date they can drop the 'Reform UK' part and that was a mission and slogan, and that the group has been "The Brexit Party" all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:18 PM

Stop pretending to be thick Nigel. You know perfectly well who he is. You’re making yourself look very silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 04:57 PM

BWM: Watching Farage on BBC Breakfast this morning, it’s blindingly obvious he’s a one-trick pony. If, by some weird twist of fate, Reform won the election, he’d run a mile - we saw it after the Brexit vote, the next day neither he nor his blond, lying buffoon crony were anywhere to be seen, both scared shitless.

Farage was not part of the government. It was not his place to put forward, or implement, policies. Although if invited he would probably have provided (what he saw as) guidance. But the then government (led by Cameron) never expected 'leave' to win, and probably saw Farage as an enemy.
Farage was instrumental in ensuring that there was a vote on the subject. As such, he did what he would have seen as his job.

Also, please name names. Who are you describing as 'his blond, lying buffoon crony'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:58 AM

It’s an opportunity to practise my expletives, Dave! Mrs Backwoodsperson practises her expletives too… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:51 AM

> As soon as I see his face the TV goes off!

*Relief*: At least it's not just me who has an allergic reaction to the sight of known bullshitters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 04:12 AM

You're braver than me BWM. As soon as I see his face the TV goes off!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 05:10 AM

Watching Farage on BBC Breakfast this morning, it’s blindingly obvious he’s a one-trick pony. If, by some weird twist of fate, Reform won the election, he’d run a mile - we saw it after the Brexit vote, the next day neither he nor his blond, lying buffoon crony were anywhere to be seen, both scared shitless.

He’s all teeth and trousers, a bag of hot air. He can bluster all he likes because he knows Reform won’t win the election and he will never have to step up to the plate, put his money where his big mouth is, and run the country. How anyone with at least one single working brain-cell can contemplate voting Reform completely baffles me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 04:52 AM

The Tories don't want an electorate that can think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 04:28 AM

I agree with much of that, MaloC. By way of disclusure, my first degree was mathematics and my master's in Computing, so I am very much of the "sciences" nature.
At degree level, there is so much science and maths to learn that we generally are doing the same as at primary school but at a more advanced level. Learn this, become familiar with manipulating it, move on to the next thing. Deciding which of two experiments may arise at PhD level, but even there is is relatively rare and usually limited to justifying your thesis. It only becomes common when PhD people get into places like CERN.
In the same way it only really surfaced in my maths when deciding whether existing texhnique A, B or C is most applicable to this problem.

I completely agree that you should not be thinking of degrees as direct training. But that is exactly where the idea of scrapping degrees because they don't show "a good return on investment' fails. The relationship is far more subtle and indirect than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 01:45 PM

> "Compare and contrast these two experiments"

From the science side of the fence, I'd phrase that as: "Which of these two (or more) experimental approaches is more likely to lead to an accurate result?" And at its cutting edge, mathematics is an art form, which happens to be the language which best expresses scientific thought.

As for the employment of nuclear-physics graduates: It's an unfortunate fallacy that degree courses are specific job training exercises. What they're really for is training people how to think, and more importantly how to learn, for themselves.* Take my case --- I started out in maths, got a bachelor's in electronics and a PhD in a radioastronomy subject, found myself seduced by programming, and ended up doing systems administration for a living.

* Getting fresh new nuclear scientists is something of a side-effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 05:20 AM

Thinking about this section of the Conservative manifesto:
"We will fund this by changing the law to close
university courses in England with the worst
outcomes for their students. Courses that
have excessive drop-out rates or leave students
worse off than had they not gone to university
will be prevented from recruiting students
by the universities regulator."

You know, that's going to be tricky to define because what happens to an individual is not what happens to the average. Very few people who study nuclear physics will end up as nuclear physicists: there just aren't that many jobs. Maybe they get a job in something else, but should they have been on a different physics course and we should shut the nuclear physics course?

Or take my daughter, who studied Philosophy. For the best part of a decade she was stuck on zero hour and short term contracts for very low wages, but is now Head of HR and Recruitment for her international firm on a pretty good salary. She credits the skills she learned on her course for a good part of that. Worthwhile course or not?

Humanities are all about evaluating arguments and multiple viewpoints, thinking about what things really mean and what lies behind what was said, seeing alternatives. Sciences and Maths less so. "Compare and contrast these two experiments"? I don't think so.


.