BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 02:24 AM

So how do we translate that to UK politics? The far right groups we had here never had serious high poll ratings but they frightened the mainstream parties enough to move them further right than they have been in my voting lifetime. We now have a Labour Party that are vaguely pink, Liberals that align themselves with Tories and Tories that want to implement NF policies. How can we hope to recentre things?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Captain Swing
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 03:44 PM

I remember going on two school visits aged 15 in 5th yr (Y11 in today's money). One was to the Lincolnshire Show and the other was to see a production of Hamlet. We managed to get served with pints of brown ale on both occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Nov 23 - 10:49 PM

As aforethreatened, analysis of clause 122 of the Online Safety Act:

UK admits 'spy clause' can't be used for scanning encrypted chat – it's not 'feasible'


UK Online Safety Bill to become law – and encryption busting clause is still there

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 09:00 AM

UK's Online Safety Bill has become the Online Safety Act, complete with the section which states that the Forces of Law and Order shall be able to intercept any and all communications (the CSAM measure). The language carefully states that end-to-end encryption is not banned, but that intercepts shall be permitted once the technology exists to permit it. Since it's mathematically impossible for said technology to work as advertised, the Act has deemed (again) that black is white by legislative fiat.

More at the The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars at the Lawfare site. Once I find the earlier article I've been paraphrasing, I'll post a link to that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 08:16 AM

Thank you Steve, I do have far more questions than opinion.
I am monitoring British history from the Tudors to the Stuarts and as always listen to BBC. American history is a cinch compared to a thousand years of British history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 06:51 PM

Gosh, didn't think that last post of mine had taken. I meant to add this comment from Jess's letter, with which I couldn't agree more.

"I can see no route where the current military action does anything but put at risk the hope of peace and security for anyone in the region now and in the future."

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM

BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 06:40 PM

Some Labour spokespeople I've heard today:

Pat McFadden
Yvette Cooper
Keir Starmer
Peter Kyle
Rachel Reeves
David Lammy
Barry Gardiner
(and others)

All calling for no ceasefire. In other words, carry on the slaughter but do listen to our very mild cautions.

All members of Labour Friends Of Israel.

Then Jess Phillips. Feminist, anti-Corbynite. She left the front bench today in protest against the anti-ceasefire stance.

She's also a member of Labour Friends of Israel. My opinion of her has soared. A real humanitarian. Kudos, Jess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:52 PM

"I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different."

But the trouble is that you wade in but have absolutely no desire to discuss our politics. The simple reason for that is that you have not studied our politics and your posts show no understanding of it. By all means join in. By which I mean, join in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:48 PM

Sunak is entering a minefield. His daft tough talk today reeks of his need to react sharply to the idiot Braverman, which he doesn't need to do. He ignored a mass of evidence from Israel and UNHCR that Rwanda does not comply with agreements as to how asylum seekers should be treated, and it's clear that "safe country" does not apply to Rwanda.

That's one thing. But Starmer. As an opposition leader, as the leader of a party that's supposed to put ordinary people first, in contrast to self-serving Tories, why can't he call for a ceasefire? It's just a call. It's not a demand. It won't happen just because he calls for it. It would be a symbolic call only. It would, though, put clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. Instead, he clings to Sunak's coat tails. He runs scared of Biden should he beat Sunak in the election. He is not a leader. He's a follower. And his stance on the conflict is splitting the party. As any fule no, split parties always lose elections. So the next election is going to come down to who's more split, Labour or Tories. Sir K, it really doesn't need to be that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:04 PM

Passing a law stating that Rwanda is safe forcibly reminds me of the Indiana Pi Bill. I commend the Wikipedia page to you, but can't resist:

.... the Speaker accepted another member's recommendation to refer the bill to the Committee on Swamplands, where the bill could "find a deserved grave"

Happily, a real mathematician was in the building on other business, he educated members of the Indiana Senate, the bill was duly blocked, and the newspapers in other States ceased heaping ridicule on the Indiana State Legislature. Sadly, in our case, the grownups seem to have deserted the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 03:32 PM

I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM

I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:

So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so.

Very Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 10:14 AM

Herself's comment this morning: "That's typical of the Tories: no Plan B."

My response: "Plan B is Plan A, shouted louder."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:52 AM

I watched the whole of the Supreme Court ruling this morning. What struck me was the fact that Rwanda's blatant failings to abide by previous agreed understandings on how asylum seekers should be treated, particularly with Israel, as well as a mass of solid evidence on this from the UN refugee agency, seem to have been ignored by this government. They were pursuing a doomed policy that has already cost taxpayers many millions of pounds. I feel like suing them to get my bloody money back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:41 AM

I poste dthis yesterday but it seems to have been lost in the latest cat litter cleanup. Apologies if it does appear twice

Cruella is now telling Fishy that his policies are not working

Funny. I'm sure she supported them until she was binned. Why on earth would she support something that she knew was not working? Not a career move surely ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 09:09 AM

It's Thérèse f'Coffey, Filk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM

We are allowed just one UK political thread. Keep your politics out of it, please.

I hate Cameron. Hubris led to brexit, a terrible misjudgement. The architect of austerity ("we're all in it together"). Very dodgy lobbying. NHS starting to implode on his watch. Hardly any growth. Explosion of zero-hours contracts. Shat on the public sector via pay freeze after pay freeze. He did one excellent thing: he completely nobbled that shabby bunch of naive opportunists, the Lib Dems.

However, he's a big hitter. He scrubs up well. He's not far right. From a Tory point of view, this isn't at all a bad move. Stodgy Starmer beware. And, after her showing on the Today programme this morning, for God's sake keep Rachel Reeves out of the spotlight. Could do worse than shutting Yvette up while he's at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:02 PM

We have what is now called an Imperial President.
"Beware the demon pomposity".
Bob Woodward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:27 AM

This has been brewing for nearly a week: it seems it was the "tents" issue that pushed Rishi over the top, not Cruella being, erm, economical with the diplomacy about the marches (which just added the cherry). I await the front-page picture on this week's New European with interest, but it should feature Cruella's head poking out of a tent on the doorstep of Number Ten.

For the record, at the time of typoing:

* Cruella -> back benches
* Cleverley -> Home Office
* the boy Cameron -> Foreign Office
* Theresa Coffey (sp?) -> back benches*
..... and more to follow.

* Despite paying her respects to Larry the Cat on the way in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM

Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM

Thanks, I thought the Prime Minister was the only 'big boss'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM

Cameron's post is minor

The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State.
DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:08 AM

Over here we have a big D and a little d.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:01 AM

I reckon ah jus reflects the opinion of MSNBC. Jus sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:45 AM

Conservative with a big C is different to conservative with a little c Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:30 AM

Cameron's post is minor but it reflects poorly to his opponents.
Perhaps your conservatives are smarter than ours but I doubt it.
What you call the wrong side of the Atlantic, over here the conservatives went too far and have splintered their base.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:03 AM

How would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:44 AM

Cameron is back in Government. It bodes ill for conservatives in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:31 AM

Cameron, a man who should never have been allowed anywhere near Downing Street ever again, fer chrissake...

Put him in that big barge all on his own and float the bloody thing off to Rwanda. Anyone got a spare ball and chain?

Anyone contemplating that he could well be the next Tory leader? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM

The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:18 AM

Source BBC news BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:16 AM

Ding dong the witch is dead... :-)

Mind you, we cannot celebrate yet as we don't yet know who will replace her. Cameron, the man who screwed up over Brexit, has been seen entering number 10!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 02:44 AM

Exactly. And now praising the police because she realised that slagging them off was a bad career move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 07:29 PM

It's the fake equivalence between 'protesters and counter-protesters" that gets me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 05:10 PM

I see that Cruella has praised the police for "their professionalism in the face of violence and aggression from protesters and counter-protesters".

She really is a piece of work isn't she. There are no words strong enough to describe the disdain I have for the shower of shits that are supposed to be running the country. How anyone can continue to support them is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 03:37 PM

Nice to know that the land of my Fathers (Well, Mother's Mother) hasn't succumbed to the downward slide!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Thanks for that, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.

From: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM

Steve: Back to your lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM

For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate

Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending

The rushes by the river
We gather ev'ry day

.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns.

NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.