BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 04:45 AM

Absolutely my pleasure, Doug! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 04:29 AM

Thanks BWM. Much appreciated.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:52 AM

Our voting system does not help either. First past the post is fine if you just have 2 parties to choose from. With our present system we will most likely end up with a government that the majority of voters have not voted for. Even when we have had governments in the past with a 'super majority' of seats, the majority of voters will not have voted for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:26 AM

Voter confidence is low due to the corruption, lying and scandals that have beset the commons since 2019. The right wing media have exacerbated the situation by excusing the actions of the vile bunch of shysters with a "they are all the same" campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:18 AM

An item from the BBC 12.6.24

Voter confidence at record low, says report

"Trust and confidence in the UK’s politics and election system has never been worse, according to analysis by the electoral expert, Sir John Curtice.

His report for the National Centre for Social Research finds record numbers of voters saying they “almost never” trust governments to put country before party or politicians to tell the truth when in a tight corner.

“The public is as doubtful as it has ever been about the trustworthiness and efficacy of the country’s system of government and the people who comprise it,” Sir John says."

×+

Voter apathy and low turnouts are worrying. I think that the turnout for this coming election is not going to be great. Let's hope that they accept my 20 year old photo id when I go to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:00 AM

I’m amused to hear the Lying Scottish Viper (for the benefit of Doug and Nigel, that’s Gove) on BBC Breakfast just now, squealing like a stuck pig about how dangerous it would be if Labour win a super-majority, and how they would be able to do whatever they liked without an effective opposition - ‘votes for 16-year-olds’ (gasp! shock! horror!), ‘tax rises’ (again!) - priceless, coming from the party who increased taxes to the highest level ever) - yadda yadda. That’s despite Labour’s fully costed manifesto.

Funny thing though, we never heard the Tories squealing like stuck pigs when they won a super-majority based on nothing more than a Johnson/Cummings three-word-slogan, did we?

They really are defecating building materials!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 05:37 PM

Care from cradle to grave certainly seems to have fell by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 02:11 PM

I think I am correct in saying that Prescriptions used to be free, that Dental Care used to be free and that Eye Tests used to be free for all.

Before a pendant puts forward that some people still get these free, I am aware of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 11:34 AM

The Tory Chancellor, a former Health Minister, co-authored a policy document setting out how to privatise the NHS. If that isn’t an indicator of their attitude to the NHS, I don’t know what is.

Some interesting reading here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 11:02 AM

I sincerely hope that you are right, Nigel, but suspect the worst. The defunding of the NHS seems to be a direct precurser to declaring that the NHS is not working and needs to be privatised. Just opinion of course but given the record of the last government I think it is a fear grounded in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 09:25 AM

Two Tories on BBC's 'Politics Live' today, constantly talking over and shouting down the Labour rep and, rather than putting forward their own party's policies, just repeating their scare-mongering 'Tax rises under Labour' nonsense over and over and over again. The Labour guy, on the other hand, was calm, and was a shining example of how to conduct a discussion.

It's as plain as the nose on your face that they're scared shitless, they're desperate, and they know their corrupt, incompetent party of the greedy, and selfish is, quite rightly, absolutely fucked.

They've obviously realised that 'Stop The Boats' hasn't conned the voters the way 'Get Brexit Done' did - I wonder when, in their desperation, they'll come up with their next three-word slogan. It's got to be imminent...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 08:00 AM

I am thinking more long term than that, Nigel.

Reform is putting a tax break for people with private health cover into their manifesto. Is it really too much of a stretch to think the Conservatives might do so next time if Reform are still a threat to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 07:44 AM

All this talk of the Conservative Party wanting to nationalise the NHS.
They've been in power for 14 years (as Labour so frequently remind us).
The NHS has not been nationalised.
Perhaps this is just a Labour 'scare story'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 04:22 AM

I’m astonished it hasn’t already appeared in the Tory manifesto. It’s their clear intention to privatise the NHS - hell, the latest Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote a book explaining how to do it!

They loathe any enterprise they can’t enrich themselves from and, for that reason only, they are hell-bent on privatising the NHS the same way they privatised so much else of our nationalised industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 03:07 AM

It must be around a decade ago that I said if I wanted to privatise the NHS, one of the earliest steps would be tax relief on private health insurance. Here is a clipping from Reform's "contract":


Tax Relief of 20% on all Private Healthcare
and Insurance
This will improve care for all by relieving pressure
on the NHS. Those who rely on the NHS will enjoy
faster, better care. Independent healthcare capacity
will grow rapidly, providing competition and
reducing costs.


Fortunately there is no way such a policy will come into play yet, but it is good example of how such an idea will be spun. Come the next election, I could see it appearing in the Conservative Manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 02:15 AM

As the election campaign progresses, it’s becoming blindingly obvious how little the Tories have got to offer - they are relying almost totally on scare tactics and trying to distract from their own shortcomings by talking constantly about Labour. You know they’re desperate when they roll Shapps out to propagate their lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 03:28 PM

Ah, looking again they have put up a new version of the manifesto. However, I can post the one that was in place when the launch completed, if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 03:23 PM

A google search for reform party logo gives several versions. The one noted above does not appear to be the current accepted version

It is the one on the "manifesto" I downloaded from their website immediately after the launch.

Yes, I read it, along with all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 02:50 PM

I just posted this on Faceache. Preaching to the converted here in the main but you never know...

"In a couple of weeks we have what is probably the most important election for a long time. Before you cast your vote just remember this. There is nothing more important than the health and welfare of the people. For the last 14 years our NHS has been asset stripped and sold off to make a quick profit for the already rich. No-one can fix it quickly but make sure that the damage does not continue. Get rid of the spivs and conmen that have been selling off YOUR NHS. It may be too late for us old gits but give your children and grandchildren a better chance at being looked after. Don't believe the bollocks that the health service is beyond repair. It was built after a world war. It can be rebuilt now."

Thank you for reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 08:37 AM

Look at their website, Nigel - https://www.reformparty.uk/ - I held my nose and saw that if you scroll down to the "Congratulation Alex Wilson" graphic, the mentioned "Reform UK / Brexit Party" is still in use on their website. WTF does it matter what it says anyway though? They are not a political party but a limited company formed by the self-aggrandising feeble excuse for a man that is Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 08:08 AM

I find it interesting that the logo for Reform says 'Reform UK' in the centre but 'The Brexit Party' in a surrounding circle.

A google search for reform party logo gives several versions. The one noted above does not appear to be the current accepted version.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 07:47 AM

Leopards don’t change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 05:36 AM

I find it interesting that the logo for Reform says 'Reform UK' in the centre but 'The Brexit Party' in a surrounding circle.

This suggests to me they are going for a deliberate ambiguity to get as many Brexit Party voters as thy can while claiming to be a different party, or alternatively at some future date they can drop the 'Reform UK' part and that was a mission and slogan, and that the group has been "The Brexit Party" all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:18 PM

Stop pretending to be thick Nigel. You know perfectly well who he is. You’re making yourself look very silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 04:57 PM

BWM: Watching Farage on BBC Breakfast this morning, it’s blindingly obvious he’s a one-trick pony. If, by some weird twist of fate, Reform won the election, he’d run a mile - we saw it after the Brexit vote, the next day neither he nor his blond, lying buffoon crony were anywhere to be seen, both scared shitless.

Farage was not part of the government. It was not his place to put forward, or implement, policies. Although if invited he would probably have provided (what he saw as) guidance. But the then government (led by Cameron) never expected 'leave' to win, and probably saw Farage as an enemy.
Farage was instrumental in ensuring that there was a vote on the subject. As such, he did what he would have seen as his job.

Also, please name names. Who are you describing as 'his blond, lying buffoon crony'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:58 AM

It’s an opportunity to practise my expletives, Dave! Mrs Backwoodsperson practises her expletives too… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:51 AM

> As soon as I see his face the TV goes off!

*Relief*: At least it's not just me who has an allergic reaction to the sight of known bullshitters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 04:12 AM

You're braver than me BWM. As soon as I see his face the TV goes off!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 05:10 AM

Watching Farage on BBC Breakfast this morning, it’s blindingly obvious he’s a one-trick pony. If, by some weird twist of fate, Reform won the election, he’d run a mile - we saw it after the Brexit vote, the next day neither he nor his blond, lying buffoon crony were anywhere to be seen, both scared shitless.

He’s all teeth and trousers, a bag of hot air. He can bluster all he likes because he knows Reform won’t win the election and he will never have to step up to the plate, put his money where his big mouth is, and run the country. How anyone with at least one single working brain-cell can contemplate voting Reform completely baffles me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 04:52 AM

The Tories don't want an electorate that can think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 04:28 AM

I agree with much of that, MaloC. By way of disclusure, my first degree was mathematics and my master's in Computing, so I am very much of the "sciences" nature.
At degree level, there is so much science and maths to learn that we generally are doing the same as at primary school but at a more advanced level. Learn this, become familiar with manipulating it, move on to the next thing. Deciding which of two experiments may arise at PhD level, but even there is is relatively rare and usually limited to justifying your thesis. It only becomes common when PhD people get into places like CERN.
In the same way it only really surfaced in my maths when deciding whether existing texhnique A, B or C is most applicable to this problem.

I completely agree that you should not be thinking of degrees as direct training. But that is exactly where the idea of scrapping degrees because they don't show "a good return on investment' fails. The relationship is far more subtle and indirect than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 01:45 PM

> "Compare and contrast these two experiments"

From the science side of the fence, I'd phrase that as: "Which of these two (or more) experimental approaches is more likely to lead to an accurate result?" And at its cutting edge, mathematics is an art form, which happens to be the language which best expresses scientific thought.

As for the employment of nuclear-physics graduates: It's an unfortunate fallacy that degree courses are specific job training exercises. What they're really for is training people how to think, and more importantly how to learn, for themselves.* Take my case --- I started out in maths, got a bachelor's in electronics and a PhD in a radioastronomy subject, found myself seduced by programming, and ended up doing systems administration for a living.

* Getting fresh new nuclear scientists is something of a side-effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 05:20 AM

Thinking about this section of the Conservative manifesto:
"We will fund this by changing the law to close
university courses in England with the worst
outcomes for their students. Courses that
have excessive drop-out rates or leave students
worse off than had they not gone to university
will be prevented from recruiting students
by the universities regulator."

You know, that's going to be tricky to define because what happens to an individual is not what happens to the average. Very few people who study nuclear physics will end up as nuclear physicists: there just aren't that many jobs. Maybe they get a job in something else, but should they have been on a different physics course and we should shut the nuclear physics course?

Or take my daughter, who studied Philosophy. For the best part of a decade she was stuck on zero hour and short term contracts for very low wages, but is now Head of HR and Recruitment for her international firm on a pretty good salary. She credits the skills she learned on her course for a good part of that. Worthwhile course or not?

Humanities are all about evaluating arguments and multiple viewpoints, thinking about what things really mean and what lies behind what was said, seeing alternatives. Sciences and Maths less so. "Compare and contrast these two experiments"? I don't think so.


.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 02:22 AM

Just to set the record straight, no party has any seats. Parliament was dissolved approximately three weeks ago, at which time all MPs lost their seats.

With any luck, that event will have ended 30p-Lee’s parliamentary career permanently…

Apologies for nit-picking, but you know the old saying - “What’s sauce for the goose…”. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 04:12 PM

Dave: Why on earth do the TV news providers keep giving Farage equal air time with the major parties? His party has no seats.

Just to set the record straight, they have won no seats.
They do have a seat for Lee Anderson who defected from the Conservatives in March.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 07:31 AM

When I was in my youth, there was a song often on the radio with the chorus "Everybody wants to go to heaven/But nobody wants to die.' It is an attitude I have been very familiar with for a long time. Yes, people want what tax pays for. No, they don't want to pay the tax.


So it was not so much money I was referring to as almoat the opposite: the manifesto has a view of culture that is entirely based on money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 06:42 AM

So many people want to see more help, money spent, on their particular interests, projects etc. That includes individual voters, organisations, businesses, government departments, councils, NGOs etc etc. On the whole they are not so keen on it being paid for by increased taxes unless it is others paying those increased taxes. Money is going to be tight for whoever gets in. That is the one thing we can all he sure about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 04:33 AM

Accidentally, I only talked about the 'performing' side of culture. There is also nothing about things like museums, historical preservation and other 'non-performing' cultural issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 04:28 AM

I try to read all the manifestos from the parties, so I have been looking at the Conservative one yesterday.

Of relevance here is the section on 'Sport and Culture'. This is one A4 sheet. There are two paragraphs on sport, then roughly one and a half columns on culture.

This deals with three topics.

The first is about making TV and film in the UK. That is economically important, but where films were made is not culturally important, in my view.   

The second is about setting up a review to see if anything can be done to stop pubs and nightclubs closing.

The third is about using the BBC licence fee review to ensure it "represent[s] the perspectives of the entire nation with diversity of thought, accuracy and impartiality as its guiding principles", which is a debate in its own right about who judges such things and whether fairness means something that 99% believe and 1$ should be given equal air time. I would not expect such detail in a manifesto, of course, but what is there implies those questions would have to be answered.

But that's it. Nothing about theatres, orchestras, ballet and other dance. Nothing about how those might feature in the school curriculum. Nothing about the small bands who are finding it more difficult to work in Europe. In short, I would say, only the pubs-and-clubs section is really about culture at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 04:50 PM

Oh go on then! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 04:24 PM

Who's going to claim 500 then? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 03:29 PM

It's not even a proper political party, Rain Dog, it's a limited company. They have basically just bought their way into the arena.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 03:05 PM

They have candidates standing in approx 600 seats, I think.
Hardly surprising that they are getting some media coverage.

Talking of candidates, we have 11 standing here in Dover & Deal. Some people have more money than sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 02:36 PM

Why on earth do the TV news providers keep giving Farage equal air time with the major parties? His party has no seats. He has failed to be elected 7 times. When he was an MEP, he never attended. It's like them producing a documentary on astro physics with Brian Cox and, to provide a balanced view, letting the bloke who read something on Facebook have his say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 05:58 AM

I wonder if Sunak’s regretting his decision to run a ‘Presidential-style’ campaign yet? Thanks to his disastrous gaffes and easily-called-out deceits (Q: How can you tell he’s lying? A: His mouth’s moving!), ‘Presidential’ isn’t the image of him that’s coming over ATM - ‘Desperate and Failing’ springs much more readily to mind.

Looking at the nation across the ocean, I don't think 'presidential' is something to aspire to.
Of course, France has a 'president' as well. But probably not than an inspiring person.
Putin? I'm starting to see a theme here . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 10:39 PM

Saw a brilliant image on SM yesterday. The famous B&W wartime photo taken from a landing-craft on a Normandy beach, with the troops, backs to the camera, wading ashore into battle, and Photoshopped with an image of a suited-and-booted Sunak, briefcase in hand, getting back into the landing craft, ready for the journey back to Blighty.

The title over the photo? ‘The Longest Half-Day’!

I wonder if Sunak’s regretting his decision to run a ‘Presidential-style’ campaign yet? Thanks to his disastrous gaffes and easily-called-out deceits (Q: How can you tell he’s lying? A: His mouth’s moving!), ‘Presidential’ isn’t the image of him that’s coming over ATM - ‘Desperate and Failing’ springs much more readily to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 06:44 PM

Dave: Any comment on Sunak's "factual inaccuracies" Nigel?

He was definitely wrong to suggest that Wales would have any interest in the soccer.

His suggestion of Labour planning for a £2,000 increase in taxes for each 'working household' has been queried, but we have yet to see what is in the party manifestos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 06:36 PM

Any comment on Sunak's "factual inaccuracies" Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 06:22 PM

Backwoodsman:
Interesting that you haven’t disputed anything in my post other than a small numerical error, Nigel.

But nit-picking is much easier than actually debating an issue, isn’t it?

Apart from the 'small numerical error' (also known as a 'factual inaccuracy') the rest of your post was personal opinion. I cannot argue with your opinions. You are welcome to hold them. Please also allow me to hold mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 05:34 AM

One of the things that’s driving me nuts about the GE Campaign is that it seems almost impossible to get a Tory to talk about Tory policies. On TV and radio, and in the press and on SM, they talk constantly about Labour (including the usual lies, such as Sunak’s ‘£2,000 additional tax under Labour’ bare-faced lie).

Seems to be an indication of how little the Tories have got to offer.