Folklore: Shantying on Military Ships

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

I'm not disputing leading from the front in action, people like Nelson, Broke (of the Shannon) and many others leading boarding parties was quite the normal thing and often costly. Also in saving life, examples abound.

What I am saying is it is quite ridiculous for a captain to do an ordinary seaman's job. He loses dignity in the eyes of the crew, and if a wind does spring up he is in the wrong place. I have read extensively about this period and I have never encountered such a case. If anyone can point me in that direction, I would certainly be interested.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:48 AM

"This was when a senior Post Captain was towing his big frigate by personally taking to the oars (despite the fact that he had at least 10 replacement boat crews available aboard the ship that he had no business leaving). What an example to set to your crew - that of an idiot."

Sir Edward Pellew the role played by Lindsay, was quite a character and such an act would not have been as ridiculous, or as strange as you'd think, Naval Officers did tend to lead from the front.

A real-life example of this with Pellew concerned the rescue from a wreck of hundreds of soldiers. In the middle of a gale with the troop transport on the rocks Pellew, an extremely capable swimmer, brought his ship in as close as he dared then jumped into the sea with a rope tied around his waist, swam to the stricken ship and established the rope that enabled the soldiers to be rescued. "What an example to set to your crew - that of an idiot.", but as a result wherever he led his men followed, their trust and faith in him was astounding - Nelson was also a naval commander renowned for "leading from the front", and no-one can doubt that both Nelson and Pellew were effective and successful leaders of men.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:30 PM

The knitting yarn called 'Seaman's Irons' is size 2/6 worsted count.

That is two strands of size 6 thread twisted together.

The size 6 thread means that 6 standard length skeins (560 yard) of it can be made from one pound of fleece.

It is a strong yarn used to make the fisher ganseys, and ganseys for other workmen, traditionally knitted in the round.

Probably just a coincidence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:33 PM

Some cats may be interested in relatively early U.S. evidence that shanties were not part of U.S. naval practice.

From "Songs of the Sea - What and How the Sailors Sing — Merchantmen's 'Shanties'," San Francisco "Daily Bulletin," Supplement, Nov. 17, 1883, p. 1:

"'The men don't sing much except when on a long voyage; but when they rerally get settled down for a trip, then you will hear them at it,' said a naval officer recently to a Tribune reporter....

"'"Shanty" songs are working songs, and are sung in the merchant service.'"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:28 PM

Wasn't 2-6 heave calling on the numbers 2 and 6 men on a
gun to haul on the tackles to run the gun out?

Consider, also, that British warships not only had huge
crews, during the age of sailing men of war, they had
relatively light gear.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

It's an excellent book - as a huge fan of Patrick O'Brian's books it was a 'must have' for me, and was easily had through Amazon. Well worth treating oneself to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM

Yes I know Steve, it was just the 2-6 heave thing.

Teribus - you should be able to get the book through Amazon (not that I'm an agent for them or anything).

Apparently they were doing the 2-6 heave thing on an episode of Hornblower. But then they had Robert Lindsey quoting Coleridge two years before he had written the quote. This was when a senior Post Captain was towing his big frigate by personally taking to the oars (despite the fact that he had at least 10 replacement boat crews available aboard the ship that he had no business leaving). What an example to set to your crew - that of an idiot. Of course, CS Forrester never wrote this episode.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM

Hi Les. Of course your book wouldn't mention any shantying because the period covered predates shantying.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:38 PM

Thanks for that pointer Les, I doubt if the book will be readily available out here where I am, but I can order it. Sounds like the sort of thing I'd like.

Only time in training that it was ever used in earnest was lowering then hoisting a ship's boat under "norwegian steam" with the old radial davits. The physical exercise was good for the soul and it taught team work. Apart from the order to "Heave" all other signals were given by hand and by Bosun's call.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Les from Hull
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:34 AM

'Les from Hull, the explanation given regarding the origins of "2 - 6 Heave" were exactly as explained to us during basic training in the Royal Navy. I would venture to guess that if they don't bloody well know, nobody else alive can shed any authoritative light on it.'

Well - it's obvious to me that they don't bloody well know - so you shouldn't believe what they said. They only heard it from the guy who taught them. It relies on the theory that 2 and 6 were the blokes who heaved on the ropes to run the gun out. They weren't. They were numbers 5,6,7 8,9,10,11,12. Check with Brian Lavery's 'Nelson's Navy - the Ships, Men and Organisation 1793 - 1815', an excellent general guide to the sailing Royal Navy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 05:45 PM

http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=3810&Path=for Chris Roche ,and everyone who rounds the horn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 05:38 PM

http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=3810&Path=roundingthehorn2.mp3Id like to dedicate this to Chris Roche.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:23 PM

WHen sailing across the Pacific on a 47' s/v we were becalmed for 12 days, I was scolded by the captain & crew for trying to "whistle up the wind" this was in 1980.

Barry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: The Admiral
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

Captain Birdseye, Chris is off rounding the Horn again on sailing ship but I think that his answer to whistling and singing on RN ships would be in the negative....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Deeps
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM

Whistling in the Royal Navy in fairly recent times was discouraged on the grounds that it could be mistaken for a high-pressure steam/air leak. The stock answer when being pulled up for whistling was "Ever heard a steam/air leak whistle Dixie?". And yes, I did my time in the RN.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

the less said about Gargoyle the better.wheres Chris Roche?.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:57 AM

Les from Hull, the explanation given regarding the origins of "2 - 6 Heave" were exactly as explained to us during basic training in the Royal Navy. I would venture to guess that if they don't bloody well know, nobody else alive can shed any authorative light on it. Personally I'm more than prepared to believe it. Gunners were specialists and seperate from the sailors who made up the guns crews, so your thoughts on numbering and function goes right out the window.

Gargoyle, unless you actually served in the Navy and/or worked longer at sea than I did, then I'd back my experience and knowledge of matters relating to the Royal Navy and life at sea against yours any day. And not to bruise your ego too much, if you think for one milli-second that I'd pay attention to any little forum Hitler who tries to tell me where I can, or where I cannot post on this forum, then damn well think again, you are going to be bitterly disappointed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Micca
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:58 AM

When I served, (British merchant Navy 1960s)we occassionally bunkered Royal Navy ships and RFA supply ships ( Merchant Navy crewed Fleet Auxilaries)and we were told by crew mwmbers of both that shantying was NOT permitted on board "White Ensign craft".
Re "Drunken sailor" I was told by Bert Grey, (who had served in square riggers and schooners out of the Baltic in the 1930s) who acted as shantyman for our ship where a lot of work was done by "Norwegian steam" (man power) that in Merchant ships it was regarded as a "show off" piece for the shantyman, the first and last verse were as standard but the rest were improvised, on the spot by him referring to incidents on the voyage and painting scurrilous pictures of members of the crew and their personal habits, and the more bawdy and vulgar the better!!!He also said it was Devilishly hard to do well!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:37 PM

They wouldn't settle for a piper?

Barry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Crowdercref
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:30 PM

An example, not of a singer I'm afraid, but a musician.

Capt. Edward Pellew, c/o Indefatigable, organised the kidnapping of Joseph Emidy in Lisbon in 1795 to act as ships fiddler, a post held for four years. It appears Emidy replaced a previous musician. Source: the diary of James Silk Buckingham, who learned violin from Emidy. See also Dr. R. McGrady, 'Music and Musicians in 19th Century Cornwall' for more details about Emidy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:41 AM

What about a precursor of "giving it 110%"? One-two-heave is obvious, two-four-heave twice as hard, two-six...

Did they do shanties on East Indiamen? There should be plenty of sources to work from.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

I don't think that anyone really knows where 2-6 heave! comes from. Web 'sources' repeat the story about running out guns. The number of men manning a gun depended on its weight, but number 2 would either be the 'second captain' or the 'loader'. Neither of these would be employed in running out the gun. So that's just a guess then!

On the subject of ships' complements, merchant ships would have a crew of a quarter to a tenth of that of a warship of similar size. Even an East Indiaman, big ships with big crews compared with other merchant vessels, would have had crews at least three times bigger had the been warships, and quite a number of the Indiaman's crew would have been stewards/servants rather than seamen.

So the twin reasons of 'not conducive to discipline' and not needed because of very much larger crews meant that shantying was not used in the Royal Navy. That isn't to say there was no singing though. 'Spanish Ladies' - the original, not the later American whaling version - is mentioned in contemporary accounts, and Dibdin's songs were as popular on board as they were in Drury Lane.

Mentioned earlier in this thread are the use of fife and drum. This was taken care of by the Royal Marine detachment carried on Royal Naval vessels. Drums were also used to issue important or urgent orders - as in 'beat to quarters'.

Subject: where did the saying "he spends money like a orig
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 10:59 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Mick Tems
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:33 AM

1) add "WITH the drunken..."

It's been a trying day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Mick Tems
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

Whoops - that should be "Patent blocks of different sizes", not "rises". Sorry.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Mick Tems
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

Stan Hugill always said that shantying was not allowed in the British Navy, except for Drunken Sailor, which was a "stamp and go" shanty - the RN relied on many men to haul the sails pretty fast. I watched him demonstrate the striding back, pulling on the ropes, and he described how there would a large number of personnel ready to take the strain. He sang the shanty:

What shall we do the drunken sailor,
What shall we do the drunken sailor,
What shall we do the drunken sailor,
Earl-eye in the the morning?

HOO-YAH! and up she rises,
Patent blocks of different rises,
HOO-YAH! and up she rises
Earl-eye in the morning.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:56 AM

Whoops...so sorry Mr. Teribus !!!

Reviewed your history of postings...and now recognize you as a fellow creature...(like me) one that temorarily strayed from the confines of their expert domain.

You hit them low...I will hit them high.

Please remain below "The Line"

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:51 AM

Mr. Teribus

You speak with "authority;" almost, as if "first-hand/mate/crew" experience.

Unfortunately ... this was not so.

Could you PLEASE cite your references ... it could be as little as, "in the years 1999 to 2003 while crewing on the Disney World, Orlando Florida, tale ship replica (chain-towed within the cement-water-canal) we would say......."blah, blay, blanter,the US Navy....."

You are posting relevant data to the thread - unfortunately, even amatures, like Sandberg, give their sources.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

SWYSLWYG is poor at citations - (and she admits it) but yours are ..... more than lacking .... they are farts in the wind of a MCat foresail.

SWYSWIG - has admitted her errors

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:53 PM

And from the Yankee side of the pond...

Stanton H. King (1867-1939) enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1885 or '86 after having spent several years on merchant ships. In his book "Dog-Watches at Sea" (1901), he related the following experience during his first cruise in the bark-rigged corvette "Alliance":

"The first evening of the bad weather the topgallant sails were stowed and the topsails single-reefed. As we manned the halyards
to sway up the main topsail yard, I led off on an old deep-water chanty, 'A Long Time Ago.' A few sailing-ship sailors joined in
the refrain. We had sung one verse when the officer of the deck, Lieutenant Hanson Tyler, got hold of me by the shoulders.

"'Here, what do you mean ? Where do you think you are ?'

"'I thought, sir, it would make the yard fly aloft to sing "A Long Time Ago."'

"'Well, we don't have chanties in the navy. The boatswain's mate's whistle will do all that. Let it be a long time ago before you
sing another.'"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:21 PM

All the descriptions I have read are by naval historians with no interest in folk music, some of them from the early 20thc so they would have been around at the height of shanty singing times. I'm not going to spend time searching out my sources as enough have been mentioned above to convince me that what I believe is correct.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:51 AM

"Whistling" onboard a Royal Navy ship was, and I believe still is a sign of mutiny. "Whistling" onboard a Merchant Navy ship was considered to be bad luck, something to do with whistling up a storm. Singing would normally only be permitted after the pipe was made "Hands to sky-lark and dance".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

(corrected post)

SC, I need to cite my sources...

I work with spirituals, and there are similar complications for documentation. What I do sometimes is cite the references, but indicate what is "said" or "thought," not as proof of the point being made but as an indication that it canNOT be proven. A reference is not necessarily a proof.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

SC, I need to cite my sources...

I work with spirituals, and there are similar complications for documentation. What I do sometimes is cite the references, but indicate what is "said" or "thought" not as proof of the point being made but as an indication that is canNOT be proven. A reference is not necessarily a proof.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

I'v spent quite a bit of time reading logs and manuscripts from 19th century naval vessels, as I used to work at a museum with a large collection of them. I'v never come across a reference to singing at work, I guess you just don't write down something that doesn't happen.

I have read volumes worth of pages describing work while the ships band or the duty fifer and drummer from the ships Marine detachment play marches, never a reference to singing. Fifeing and Drumming appear to have been unique to the young American Navy. The fife and drum when out of fashion in Europe during the early to mid 18h century, to be replaced by military bands.

As far as "ships fiddler" the only references I'v found of a duty fiddler on Royal Navy vessels is a medical officer, who's job it was to play dance tunes once a day to prevent diseases like scurvy. I have found 2 references to a "capstan fiddler" in the french navy, one from the 1760s the other 1770s. All mention of duty fiddlers I'v encountered are from the middle of the 18th century, no one was singing chantys then.

Though I do believe music during work may have been more common on Naval vessels than some believe. All of the significant collectors of Chantys agree that chantying developed during the Eearly to mid 1800s as a result of advancing technology making ships bigger, while financial interests caused the crews to grow proportionally smaller. This didn't happen in the navy, you just wouldn't have a 150 foot ship with 20-30 guys doing the work, you'd have hundreds of sailors, there's no need for the chanty.

As to the reference of men singing at the pumps. That makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:38 AM

Right, that (the original A&NC, not the Website quoted is near enough contemporary to constitute a primary source, especially if the issue of the Londonderry Journal quoted could be located. It's interesting that it states that after the relaxation of the normal rule, they were still singing a shanty when they got back to Lough Swilly- in other words, long after the emergency was over.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: The Admiral
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:31 AM

I can only go along with you Tom. I did make enquiries via The Greenwich Maritime Museum and The Royal Navy Museum some time back without any reponse to the positive. Whistling was banned ('said to be unlucky but I think it was because whistling could be confused with Bosuns Pipes) and for much the same reasons; orders could be drowned out by song. Why would you need worksongs when you had several hundred men working the gear compared to a Merchant ships 40 or so? It should also be stated that RN ships were much better equipped with capstans etc with which to work the gear as well.

Although as it has already been pointed out, it is nearly impossible to prove a negative, I heard this rumour many years ago and disagreed with it then...

Tony

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:13 PM

"...yet, in this case, it is agreed on all hands that he was of the greatest service; any thing being excusable which could encourage men situated as they were."

This an example of ONE exception, not a general rule.

Sea Canary asked for documentation to prove a negative. This was given to his satisfaction.

Now comes a lot of naysayers who wish to dispute, among other things, the testimony of those, who in other circumstances , would most likely be accepted as valid.

Such winds as these need another tack.

Let those who believe that shanties were commonly used on naval vessels provide specific instances, chapter and verse, to demonstrate the validity of their argument.

Fair winds - Tom Hall

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:10 PM

THis seems to bear out the blindingly obvious: that normally the practise of shanty singing was of no relevance, and therefore discouraged in the navy when there were plenty of hands to do the jobs, and the singing was for various reasons not wanted. But when there was a problem, as often occured, the navy was as ever clever, resourceful etc: if shanty singing was needed, they used it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:19 PM

It's taken me till now to find this reference, orininally posted on another forum by Jonathan Lighter:

"The American magazine _Army & Navy Chronicle_ of Nov. 9, 1837 (p. 293) reprints, from the _Londonderry Journal_, "further particulars" of "The Voyage of H.M.S. Terror, Commanded by Captain Beck." According to the article, _Terror_ had been trapped in in Arctic ice for more than a year, from June 1836 to July 1837. Having finally cut the ship loose, "the men were incessantly at the pumps, night and day, one-half sleeping while the rest were pumping, six feet of water being in the hold."

The article goes on to remark "the exhilerating [sic] and enlivening effect produced among the brave but exhausted crew, by the singing of a series of songs, while at work, composed by one of the sailors, who had been a long time at the West Indies, in the merchant trade, where he picked up the tunes from the black fellows. Although it is contrary to man-of-war discipline to allow noise at work, yet, in this case, it is agreed on all hands that he was of the greatest service; any thing being excusable which could encourage men situated as they were."

The _Terror_ finally reached Lough Swilly, anchoring at "Knockalto fort."

When the vessel came to anchor, the sailors at work were "busy, chorusing the sailor's song of 'Sally round the corner.' " This was presumably a version of the shanty still familiar as "Round the Corner, Sally."

This may be the earliest known account to connect shantying with the West Indies, as well as the earliest to emphasize the _ad lib_ nature of the lyrics--not surprising since there seems to have been just one man in the crew of nearly sixty who knew some shanties."

Please note the source, the date and the following remark,"Although it is contrary to man-of-war discipline to allow noise at work..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:46 AM

Paul Burke's remarks re Betton Wood's shost and LTC Rolt are a salutary lesson. "What a chap told me in a pub in Sidmouth" can so quickly turn into hard eveidence of practise two centuries ago, especially nowadays via the internet. It is always worth asking "Where is your evidence?".
Bring on your 1805 naval log entries saying "Amos Scroggs 200 lashes for singing John Kanakanaka". If the practise was "strictly forbidden" there has got to be evidence of punishment, considering some captains flogged for anything.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:37 AM

I don't know much about the history of shanties, apart from what I've read in books about folk music such as Lloyd and Hugill, but as a general point, please beware on what constitutes evidence. Curmudgeon lists an impressive array of references, but they are all secondary sources. In such cases, it's not uncommon for a sort of folk- process to occur; one writer prints a statement, another copies it, someone else reads the same thing twice in different books, so it MUST be true, and perhaps adds a bit extra by way of comment, which is widely read, and thereafter no one ever checks up raw sources because it's such a widespread bit of information.

A classic example of this (not trying to drift the thread) is a common reference in canal books and guids to Betton Wood on the Shropshire Canal. It's often stated that this is (or was) haunted by a screaming ghost, and that the old boatmen would not willingly moor there. This intrigued me, as I had read M.R.James's ghost story, "A Neighbour's Landmark", in which a Betton Wood is haunted, so I asked around a little. And the trail seems to lead back to L.T.C.Rolt, a pioneer of recreational canal boating, who wrote in his classic book, Narrow Boat, that he moored near the wood in the late 1930s and was reminded of the story by the name and gloomy location.

So I don't know if shanties were really forbidden in the Navy, but to find out for sure you'd have to study diaries, logs, eyewitness accounts etc. from the relevant periods.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:22 AM

All orders to work "evolutions" at sea onboard Royal Navy ships was by bosun's call, i.e. sharp piercing notes in sequences that could be heard through the sound of gunfire. Locally any requirement to heave or pull sharply of rope and tackle was always to the order "2, 6 Heave", that even held good in my day in the Navy, numbers 2 and 6 of a guns crew were those who were responsible for running the gun out once it had been re-loaded, they were stationed on the ends of the run out tackle ropes and the rest of the guns crew paired off to assist them in the task, the gun captain calling out the order "2, 6, Heave".

Only songs sung onboard Royal Naval Ships were forebiters (non-working songs) not shanties (Working Songs).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

"I have a memory of someone stating that there were two shanties allowed in the Royal Navy, one of which was 'Drunken Sailor.' Gurney

Was the other one 'Spanish Ladies'? I ask, because the official Royal Navy history website lists 4 'shanties' as being RN - Captain Kidd, Benbow, Spanish Ladies and Drunken Sailor. The first two aren't shanties, and in my view Spanish Ladies isn't either, but Hugill accepts it as a capstan shanty.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

I have a memory of someone stating that there were two shanties allowed in the Royal Navy, one of which was 'Drunken Sailor.'

I can't remember who said it, but it was someone who's views commanded respect. Could have been Cyril Tawney or Stan Hugill, I discussed shanties with both men, or some other scholar of the genus.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: SeaCanary
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Thank you one and all! My cup runneth over. :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: curmudgeon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

Colcord, "Songs of American Sailormen," p.31,

"British merchant seamen were impressed into the naval service where no shantying was allowed..."

Lloyd, "Folk Song in England," p. 289,

"...East Indiamen sailed under naval discipline, with no singing allowed on deck..."

Terry, "The Shanty Book, Part I," p. (v),

Moreover - at least in the nineteenth century - they (shanties) were never used aboard men-o'- war, where all orders werere carr iedied out in silence to the pipe of the bosun's whistle."

Hugill, "Songs of the Sea," p.11,

"In the navies of the world, all work was done in time with numbers and with the bosun's call or pipe. Singing at work was taboo."

Need more proof?

- Tom

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

Shantying was not used in either navy mainly because it wasn't necessary and you wouldn't be able to hear anyone sing anyway. Discipline was so strict and all jobs were done to perfection immediately on order. Also there were plenty of hands to the pumps as it were. There simply wasn't time for anyone to organise anyone to sing, or any need. There was so much bustle, activity and noise on a man-o-war a shanty would have been pointless.

Merchant ships in contrast were usually short on manpower(The Navy pressed most of them)and needed the extra pull/push the shanty gave. Many of the crew were ill-disciplined and green and the shanty at least kept them together in time.

The only references to shantying on board RN vessels are a few vague references on board revenue cutters in the early 19th century.

The above info I have gleaned from reliable sources in old magazines lime 'Mariner's Mirror'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

Chanteys were sung on board Venetian galleys, according to a printed record, c. 1493.
After describing whistle orders, and various ranks of seamen, the author said, "Under these again, there are others who are called mariners, who sing when work is going on, because work at sea is very heavy, and is only carried on by a concert between one who sings out orders and the laborers who sing in response. So these men stand by those who are at work, and sing to them, encourage them, and threaten to spur them on with blows. ....They are generally old and respected men." Whether the practice extended from merchant galleys to naval galleys is not stated.

The quote from Joanna Colcord, 1938, "Songs of American Sailormen." She did not discuss U. S. or Royal Navy practice.

The French have a long tradition of chantey song, but this is not evident unless one obtains the French literature. Most English and American writers tend to say that most of the French chanteys were borrowed form the English or American ships, but this is just part of the French repertoire. Some of the borrowing went the other way, e. g., "Boney" (was a warrior) was derived from "Jean-François de Nantes."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Well, there are a number of shantys in our copy of The Book of Navy Songs c.1955 by the Trident Society (a student organization) of the US Naval Academy. It refers back to a book called Songs of American Sailormen by Joanna C. Colcord, c. 1938, but we don't have copy of that. There is nothing in the book we have that says whether or not these songs were actually sung onboard US Navy ships during the pre-steam shanty era.

I wish you luck in proving or disproving a negative. Cyril Tawney says in the introduction to Grey Funnel Line that, "...although there is evidence to refute the oft-repeated nonsense that shantying was strictly forbidden in the Royal Navy...it is undoubtedly true that the practice was rare in the Royal service and was almost wholly confined to merchantmen." My entirely uninformed guess would be that this was even more true in American Navy, since it was extremely small until the Civil War and its geometric growth afterwards coincided with the rise of steam, the introduction of the steam winch, and the effective end of work shantys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships
From: SeaCanary
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

But do you have documentation for this?

I've heard the same thing, but I need to cite my sources and darned if I can find any in Hugill, Colcord, et al. (I have a feeling they're in there, somewhere, but I can't find them.)