how were source singers influenced by revival

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

No Cap'n - I wrote 'many traditional singers' - and that's what I meant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 05:17 AM

Jim s posts are interesting ,but they are one persons perspective,they are not gospel,very occassionally they are inaccurate[Cyril Tawneys lack of concern over royalties/prs for his songs].
I was talking about Fred Jordan,and how he was influenced by the revival.
Curmudgeon,
Jim Carroll then replied to me, I think youll find that many traditional singers[and story tellers in particular]already had a technique with an audience.etc TheStewarts of Blair[particuarly Alec] was an example of this.
In relation to my point he didnt mention Walter Pardon.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:42 PM

Time you two made it up!!

Ray

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: curmudgeon
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM

Jim - send an email message to [e-mail] and explain your situation as to cookies, membership et al. and he will send you an email with explanation of what to do - Tom

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:28 PM

Curmugeon
Re cookies - will do as soon as I know how to -thank you for explaining things to the Cap'n
Cap'n - what views on the concertina? I love Mrs Crotty.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: curmudgeon
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:14 PM

On the other hand, I find Jim Carrol's posts to be most enlightening and very interesting, especially having been stuck on this side of the Atlantic during the "revival." and really wish that Jim would email joeoffer@mudcat,org and get his cookie back.

Besides, I don't think that Jim was even talking about Fred Jordan, but rather Walter Pardon - Tom

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM

Jim Carroll, I am telling you that Fred Jordan developed his technique,singing in a pub or at home to a few friends is completely different,from singing to a hundred people on stage at a folk festival.
Your opinion on stagecraft,does not interest me.,any more than your opinions on concertina playing,or anything else you know nothing about.

Fred Jordan was afine singer,and an excellent performer who could adapt to many environments, pub singarounds, folk clubs, folk festivals.
Performance like Music is a learning process,a good performer learns from mistakes and develops and improves,

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:45 PM

Ray,
Walter wasn't in any way academically inclined; though he did read extensively, mainly the Victorian novelists like Dickens and Hardy - purely for the pleasure of a good story. He once told us that the two greatest crimes in literature were the hanging of Tess (of the Durbevilles) and the drowning of Maggie Tulliver (Mill on the Floss).
He was extremely thoughtful in what he did, particularly in relation to his resurecting his family's songs.
He was typical of working people of his generation (a carpenter by trade) who decided to educate themselves and was helped in this by a phenomenal memory.
Cap'n,
I think you'll find that many traditional singers (and storytellers in particular) already had a technique with an audience (albeit a small one developed in the home environment). In my opinion this worked best when they adapted this for a club audience rather than develop 'stage craft'.
The Stewarts of Blair (particularly Alec) was probably the best example of this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM

Of course source singers,Became like professional revival singers accepting money for their services.
some of them unconsciously picked up stage craft[FredJordan],so the revival taught Fred how to handle different audiences,and developed him as a performer.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:51 AM

Lovely stuff on Walter Pardon, thanks

Walter seems to be more an academically inclined person with a good memory, as well as being an artist and social historian

Fred was a bit more handy and practical I feel, an artistic singer who knew what audiences needed to hear and to join in with

Will Noble a fine singer of the sort of songs Fred sang, but from Yorkshire

John Greaves a fine source singer, not very influenced by the revival and keeps a fine repertoire of source songs

Ray

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:26 PM

I was discussing with a friend, 35 years ago, about Fred Jordan learning new traddie songs. I wondered if he was learning 'new' songs, or being reminded of them, or having missing bits filled in. He certainly took a slightly different slant on the songs that hadn't been in his earlier repertoire that I had heard before.

I never did find out the sort of glue he used on his cap.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:02 PM

JIM CARROLL,seamus ennis was also financed by the BBC,When he met Elisabeth Cronin,He said Iam from the BBC,She replied I dont care whether your from the ABC ,you are very welcome.
so what advantage did Kennedy have over Seamus Ennis.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:37 AM

Jim Carroll,thankyou for your information about Walter Pardon.it is very interesting,and I have learned a lot.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:15 PM

well Jim,Thats what happens when you drink milk,fatal for a singer.
Dont ever be tempted.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 01:28 PM

'Walter Pardon felt he had to practice for a whole winter to be prepared for a recording'.
Cap'n,
clarification.
Walter was not practicing for a recording. He had decided 19 1946 to get together his family songs, which he wrote down, memorising the tunes on the melodeon.
In the 70s his nephew persuaded him to put them on tape - that's what took the time.
Here is his description of recording himself (along with quite a nice account of what he thought folk clubs were.


RECORDING HIMSELF
Anyhow, I set it up once and plugged in, I tell you, that was a good job; I was right nervous doing it.
I thought myself, I used to think I could manage to sing the old 'Rambling Blade'; I put it on and it sound so blooming horrible I wiped it right out, oh, that did sound dreadful; I don't think that was as bad perhaps as I thought it was, but that was a long while, I trying different things until, you know, I thought that was better as I kept hearing it, you see.
And I know that was about October, 1972 when I started it; Oh, I don't know, it took about up to Christmas time to fill one side; I used to forget there was verses in the songs, you see, I used to keep wiping it out and putting them on again. That took a long time to get them up into the pitch I could sing them in, not having sung the things.
Well I got one side done somewhere from the October up to the Christmas1972 this was. And I know when it come over to the following New Year I was in here one Saturday night and that was bitterly cold; oh, that was a wind frost, wind coming everywhere. I was that cold I had a big fire going one side and that little stove the other.
So I thought then I'd do some more taping. Anyhow, so I got warmed up, I had a strong dose of rum and milk, and I had another one. And so I got the tape recorder going, I can remember well enough; that was Caroline And Her Young Sailor, and when I finished it was the best I ever did do.
Well, I found out I drank more than I should, I had to keep right still. Well, I switched it off; that was true, in fact I was drunk, and then of course I went to bed, I never did have any more, and the next morning when I got up and tried it I knew I was, how that was coming out with all then words all slurred, so I wiped it all out.
Well I found then as I kept going, that it wouldn't pay to drink anything.
Anyhow, eventually that was filled up in the March, that was March 1973.

FOLK CLUBS
I had a vague idea they had folk clubs of some description, all these doctors, solicitors etcetera would go and sing in someone's big house. I never realised you see, working people done that, never knew a single thing about it.

PICTURES WHILE SINGING
J C   Can I ask you something else then Walter. When you're singing in a club or at a festival, who do you look at, what do you see when you're singing?
W P   Well, I don't see anything.
J C   You don't look at the audience.
W P   No, that's why I like a microphone; I'd rather stand up in front of a microphone and that sort of thing 'cause it's something to look at, that's what I like, this sort of thing in front so you can shut the audience out, 'cause I can shut the audience right away from everywhere.
J C   So what do you see then, when you're…..?
W P   Well actually what I'm singing about, like reading a book; you always imagine you can see what is happening there, you might as well not read it.
P Mc   So you see what you're singing about?
W P   Hmm
P Mc   And how do you see it; as a moving thing, as a still thing?
W P   That's right.
P Mc   Moving?
W P   That's right. The Pretty Ploughboy was always ploughing in the field over there, that's where that was supposed to be.
J C    Over there?
W P Hmm.
J C    So it's that field just across the way?
W P   That's right.
J C    How about van Dieman's Land?
W P   Well, that was sort of imagination what that was really like, in Warwickshire, going across, you know, to Australia; seeing them chained to the harrow and plough and that sort of thing; chained hand-to-hand, all that.
You must have imagination to see; I think so, that's the same as reading a book, you must have imagination to see where that is, I think so, well I do anyhow.
P Mc   But you never shut your eyes when you're singing, do you?
W P    No, no.
P Mc   But if you haven't got a microphone to concentrate on, if you're singing in front of an audience, where do you look?
W P   Down my nose, like that.
P Mc   Yes, you do, yeah.
W P   That is so. Have you noticed that?
P Mc   Yeah.
J C   Do the people in the songs that you sing, do they have their own identity or are they people you know or have known in the past?
W P   No, their own identity, I imagine what they look like.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 03:10 PM

Also, there can be a difference between 'working hard' on a song and preparing it for performance. 'Working on it' may involve vocal technique, memorization, interpretation, while preparation for a 'stage' may involve dealing with psychological and emotional demons, consideration of how best to convey the song to the anticipated audience, a more thorough training of 'muscular memory' to preclude the kind of minor gaffs that may be inconsequential in informal circumstances. By way of comparison, I've known many accomplished fiddlers who clearly worked very hard on their music, - but who never developed a 'professional' type of presentation.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 02:45 PM

BB, agreed, no slight intended,but would the traditonal/source singer of sixty years ago,have had exactly the same attitude,would he have felt the necessity to change his repertoire as frequently.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: BB
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 02:07 PM

Ruth, that comment of Fred's should be stuck to every collector's recording machine! That's terrific!

Dick, I don't think it's a matter of being paid or not to perform - singers of the calibre of Bob and Jeff I'm sure work hard on their songs regardless.

Barbara

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 11:52 AM

I agree, Dick. I think Peter Bellamy was making a point about the expectations of the folk community of that time when it came to source singers, and the idea that perhaps a sector of that community wanted the source singers to fit into a particular preconception of what they "ought" to be, rather than demonstrating a wider respect for the three-dimensional human beings that they actually were...

There's a great quote in the booklet from Mike Yates, who recorded Fred Jordan singing, that has stayed with me. He says, "I must have been pumping (Fred) for songs and was probably getting on his nerves, when he suddenly said, 'Mike, there's more to a man than just his songs.' It's something that I have tried to remember ever since."

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 11:08 AM

RUTH.I would be surprised if Bob lewis and Jeff Wesley didnt practice and work on their songs,any singer whatever their label,if they are to give a professional performance has to practise,if a singer is being paid professionalism is required.
Walter Pardon felt he had to practice for a whole wintertiobe prepared for a recording.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 06:33 AM

My first paragraph missed out the word openly.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 06:32 AM

thankyou Ruth.,Thatwas very interesting.
JIM I had awhole section of amessage cut off.Peter Kennedy should have dealt with his source singers more and wuith more honesty.
I know from your posts that you Had problems with him,and that so did other collectors.
I get the Impression that he was unecessarily competetitve and litigious,with other collectors.
I also get the impression,and please correct me if I am wrong,that he enjoyed a cordial relationship with AlanLomax,does anyone know how he got on with Sean OBoyle with whom he collaborated.
Jim,every single book, record, that was either recorded or collected BY Kennedy,which is in my own possession,was purchased before I knew anything detrimental about him,there is little sense,and it would acheive nothing,if I were not to use the items.
the musical traditions article sums up Kennedy fairly,he had good points and bad,life is not black and white.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM

In the very excellent booklet accompanying the Fred Jordan CD "A Shropshire Lad", Derek Schofield addresses some of these points. In particular, a review by Peter Bellamy is reproduced which discusses Fred's choice of dress, and its effect on his audience. Bellamy calls Fred Jordan a "shrewd performer", and suggests that he probably did wear his working clothes to "appeal to pre-conceived notions of 'rusticity' so dear to to many hearts on the folk scene."

But he also suggests that many source singers were conscious of themselves as "performers", and worked to be the best performers they could be. Bellamy adds that, to many people, "the idea of the country singer as an accomplished professional, continually polishing and improving his repertoire and performance is pure anethema. ('What do you mean, Harry Cox used to practice?')"

Now, I suppose the interesting question is whether the singers in question would have had that same consciousness of themselves as "performers" had it not been for the revival, and the resulting legion of fans and collectors who took their music and performance completely out of its original context. How did this change what they did? It's impossible to say, but I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that some change certainly took place.

With regard to repertiore, I think it's right and healthy that traditional singers continued to add to theirs, and didn't restrict themselves. Not that my opinion matters: Ian Russell, Will Duke and Rod Stradling are quoted in the booklet as saying the same thing. The idea that a traditional singer ought to have some sort of static repertoire does a disservice to them as artists.

Of course, it's interesting that Fred Jordan was asked to learn a traditional song, "The Seeds of Love", to sing at an EFDSS festival in 1971. The song became a staple of his repertoire. I think this throws up some interesting questions. It's not quite the same thing as a source singer hearing a good song from outside the tradition and deciding to learn it; it's a source singer being asked to learn a traditional song by participants in the revival. While there was a specific reason for doing so (it was a special anniversary concert, and The Seeds of Love has a very special place in the history of song collection) it still speaks of a kind of direct intervention that some might feel uncomfortable with.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 05:16 AM

Jim, I am not as knowledgeable as you about Kennedy,I am a singer and musician,not a collector ,apart from yourself and FredM

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 03:49 AM

Cap'n,
It is difficult to judge how good a collector Kennedy was because, as far I am aware, we have no access to his field tapes. He was fully financed and equipped by the BBC and was able to approach his singers with their authority behind him, which gave him an enormous advantage over most other collectors. It is often forgotten that he was a part of a team and was not working on his own, so the recordings he marketed were not just his own, but also the products of the work of others.
One of that team, Seamus Ennis, once summed it up for me in a conversation I had with him during a music session. I was unwise enough to mention Kennedy and the BBC project and Ennis became very angry and said, "that man is a thief".
For me, part of the judgement of a good collector is how he treats his informants - Kennedy doesn't fare too well in that respect. This is especially true when you remember that his victims included impoverished Traveller children from whom he lifted royalties aimed at their education - not exactly Woody Guthrie's "robbing pennies out of blind men's cups", but in that general direction.
I'm afraid I regarded buying Kennedy's material the same as I did buying South African goods during the Apartheid period - as useful as they might have been, I didn't!   
Incidentally, you are wrong about his being the only one to have recorded Neilly Boyle (I seem to remember Boyle was recorded commercially and appeared on 78s?) Kennedy recorded him along with another member of the BBC team, Sean O'Boyle, who carried out the interview.
You still haven't commented on your attitude to his behaviour towards both traditional singers and his fellow collectors. I look faorward to hearing it - but I won't hold my breath.
Jim Carroll
PS I left out the word 'recorded' in the first sentence of my last posting - please insert were appropriate (if you get my drift). Don't know where all those peculiar punctuations came from.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 03:02 AM

Tom,
You are quite right about what section of the singers repertoire should be - I was being over-simplistic in the point I was making; I was talking about when a collector was placed in an either-or situation.
Our early work in West Clare was done (over 20-odd years) during fortnight-long visits here. In those halcyon days it was like being let loose in a sweet-shop, there were so many singers to be recorded and so little time to do it, so we chose initially to head-hunt, go in-record the songs- pull out. This got us a lot of songs, and also gave us some idea of the local repertoire. After a while we became aware of a number of singers who not only had large repertoires, but also had a great deal of information to pass on; so we decided to slow our gallop and concentrate on these in order to carry out in-depth interviews. With these we not only recorded the whole repertoires, but also the singers talking about the varying types of songs, getting them to identify them, etc.
In the end, both here and in England we finally settled on a small number of singers to work with constantly. We met Walter Pardon in 1975 and recorded him regularly until his death in 1996. Also in 1975 we started to record Clare Singer Tom Lenihan and continued to record him annually until his death in 1990. In 1975 (busy year that!) we started to record Traveller singer, storyteller, street singers, ballad seller, horse-dealer, tinsmith - you name it, Mikeen McCarthy. Our last recording of him was done a year before his death in 2004.
It was from these three that the bulk of our information on traditional singing came.
With each of them we recorded the whole repertoire, though I confess we did have some difficulty with Walter who was probably the most articulate on the subject of singing, and was reluctant to sing his non-traditional songs as he did not see any great value in them (we have him speaking at some length on these songs and his attitude to them).
We did work with other singers than these to a lesser degree, but these were the ones we concentrated on, and of course our work included the entire repertoires.
Extremely interesting was Mikeen McCarthy who not only diffentiated between ‘street singing’, ‘pub singing’ and ‘fireside singing’, but, when questioned, described how he ‘got pictures â€" like being in the cinema’ when he sang traditional songs, but didn’t with the rest. Some of our work with Mikeen is covered in the article on him in ‘Singer, Song and Scholar’.
Walter referred to a number of his non-traditional songs as ‘pot-house’ songs’ and also ‘got pictures’ when he sang ‘folk songs’ (his term).
While you are right about collectors’ attitudes changing from the early days, one of the things that encouraged us to work the way we did was the dearth of information from the singers themselves on the act of singing. A little work was done on this, for instance, that done with Texas Gladden (Lomax?), but on this side of the Atlantic such work appears ro be either non-existant (or at least not freely available). The nearest we have appears to be Gower and Porter’s study of Jeannie Robertson, but even that is restricted to Gower’s section based on Jeannie talking of herself and her family background and Porter’s own analysis of the singing.
The small amount we did was probably too little, too late.
Both revival singing and folk song research seems to me to be based entirely on the erroneous notion that trdaitional singers had no opinions worth considering on the various types of songs in their repertoire, which, in the revival seems to have led to the ‘talking horse’ philosophy which has long dominated the club scene.
On the academic side, when we once told one researcher of Walter’s attitude to his songs, the response was “How could he think like that; a simple countryman!â€쳌 We recently used the term for the title of an article we wrote on Walter which has just been published in a festschrift for Tom Munnelly, ‘Dear, Far-voiced Veteran’.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:50 AM

Tom ,if I might refer to your last paragraph,of your first post with reference to style,this is something Comhaltas are attempting to do,I dont think they get it entirely right,but by providing examinations,in the same way that classical music boards provide, in which styles of singing/ Instrumental,styles of ornamentation are studied,and learned about.,people can get an idea of traditional styles.
fortunately we also have many recordings, some of them made by Peter Kennedy[hewas the only man to record thesuperb fiddler NealyBoyle]of these singers/instrumentalists for which I am very grateful.PeterKennedy ,for all his faults collected a vast amount of material,and issued traditional recordings,which I havefound useful.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:39 AM

In the case of Bob Lewis, according to what he says in the interview linked above, the revival sent him back to his mother to learn a whole lot more old songs. Interestingly, again according to what he says, while he was initially uncomfortable in the folk clubs with, among other things, some git in a greatcoat criticizing the way a song was sung, his mother was quite exacting in her evaluation of his progress with songs she was teaching him.

If you haven't read the interview yet, do; it is really quite enlightening in regard to the issues being discussed here. (Thanks TheSnail!). (Although, as a git formerly in a greatcoat, I resemble that remark ... ).

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:44 AM

Sorry, that was rather off-message. To go back to Dick's original enquiry:

It gave many a new performance arena which kept some material going longer than might otherwise have been the case.

It shaped their 'current' repertoire according to what they thought the revival wanted.

It shaped their public persona.

Tom

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:42 AM

Peter Kennedy was a major collector,Without his collected work,the traditional music scene would be a poorer place.[I make no apologies for his selling of your tape,]
Cecil Sharp was also a full time collector,he treated his sources well,.
To get his songs published he had to alter some of the texts.
what I am asking is, would Cecil Sharp have been under financial pressure from a publisher to collect certain kinds of songs rather than others,because the publisher might say there is a market for sea songs,or love songs,could this influence ,what a full time collector decides to collect?.
Jim, in my experience of life,Common sense is not very common.,maybe collectors have more of it than the general public.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:39 AM

"An ethnomusicologist, social or cultural historian, whatever, would not and cannot discriminate, but I think it fair enough for 'folk song' collectors to confine their collecting to their definition of 'folk songs' (ah - there's the rub!).
An interesting excercise for us has been to ask the singers what 'their' attitude to the different types of song in their repertoire - that's when things really got interesting."

Yes, indeed, now we're getting intering! The early collectors were criticised for not taking enough notice about the collectees details. This started shifting later in the century: social context, singers life situation, etc. My problem is that I can't see how you can deal fully with these aspects without dealing with the entire repertoire of the singer.

You could, presumably, just note repertoire and collect the ones that interest you - but this is just as selective as collecting by any other parameter. In any case, it is rather interesting to hear the way a singer handles something like Knock 'Em in the Old etc. (as that's the example used above).

It is vernacular singing techniques that we are in real danger of losing (perhaps it's already mostly lost) and they offer a real peoples alternative to classical or rock techniques - actually, that's also possibly wrong - some would argue that rock technique is a vernacular style even if a development of American traditional!

Ho hum!

Tom

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 03:43 AM

Cap'n
Do you know ANY collectors who sell what they have collected (apart from Peter Kennedy, who sold anything anybody collected)?
To your second point, not so much skill, just a bit of common sense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:56 PM

I would choose Lord Gregory.,not only because I prefer it but KNOCK EM IN THE etc,is readily available in printed form,and in my experience is less likely to have intersting varitions melodically,and lyric wise.
also, as a collector,does the commercial aspect come into play?is the collector more likely to sell[or get published] interesting versions of lord gregory ,than of the former.this may not be of importance to the part time collector,but a full time collector,who has to pay his bills,from the proceeds of his collecting,may have to take this into consideration.
I suppose Jim,you have to be very careful how you phrase your questions,and also try not to indicate with body language,your own preferences,so that you get an honest answer,it must require alot of skill.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:14 PM

Dave,
All collectors have to fix perameters, especially the part time ones with limited resources (not Sharp, I agree).
But quite often it does come down to the decision between recording say, a version of 'Lord Gregory' and 'Knock 'Em in The Old Kent Road' - be honest, what would you choose?
An ethnomusicologist, social or cultural historian, whatever, would not and cannot discriminate, but I think it fair enough for 'folk song' collectors to confine their collecting to their definition of 'folk songs' (ah - there's the rub!).
An interesting excercise for us has been to ask the singers what 'their' attitude to the different types of song in their repertoire - that's when things really got interesting.
Jim Carroll
PS Sorry again Joe - will try to remember. I live for the day when I can post as a member - is it something I said?

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:32 AM

yes very interesting interview thankyou ,
apologies to Bob Lewis,somebody else suggested this about Fred Jordan,On another thread,dont know if it was true.
however it is important to hear Bob Lewis version, so thankyou for correcting the matter.,and thankyou for printing the interview.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:19 AM

BOB LEWIS Is a fine singer.So was FredJordan.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Marje
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 08:38 AM

Re the shepherd's regalia: I remember hearing (from either Bob Copper, who collected songs for the BBC in the 1950s, or Bob Lewis, I can't remember)that when the Sussex farmers turned up to a BBC recording to give their songs, they thought it right and proper to wear their smocks, which was what they wore for church, harvest suppers and smart occasions. Some of the BBC staff thought it was a wind-up and that the men were taking the piss, but they were just trying to dress up in their "Sunday best".

Bob Lewis may well have considered it quite appropriate in the 1970s to do likewise. I don't know much about the traditions in Sussex at that time, but I believe that smocks continued to be worn on festive and traditional occasions there long after they'd become a bit of a joke in other areas.

Marje

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 06:13 AM

Captain Birdseye

Bob must have thought like Fred Jordan,that this was what the revival required him to do.

Despite the Captain's tendency to refer to him in the past tense, Bob is alive and well and in fine voice when I saw him doing a floorspot at the Young Copper's booking at the Royal Oak, Lewes last week.

To anybody who knows him the idea that he would do anything because he thought that it was required of him is absurd. He's an intelligent adult human being, not a child doing his party piece.

This interview with Vic Smith contains a lot that is relevant to this thread.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 05:13 AM

As someone who was also saved from hanging around street corners Jim is clearly correct - although some things discovered in the last few years show there are still some gems out there.

I know of two people currently working with "undiscovered" singers.

However that was not my point - Sharp et al. from that age had an idea of what they wanted to collect and tended to dismiss the rest.

Nowadays we look more at context then they ever did - or at least I hope we do.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:02 AM

The basic agenda of collectors, as far as I can make out, has never really changed; it has been to gather in what they saw as a rapidly disappearing body of songs before they disappeared altogether.
In the early 20th century Sharp adopted this attitude; Irish collector Tom Munnelly working into the 21st century described his work as 'a race with the undertaker'. Both were right in their way, though Tom was more right than Sharp. Tom's fieldwork has now virtually slowed down to a standstill, even though he lives in West Clare where, twenty odd years ago you couldn't throw a stone without hitting a traditional singer with a version of 'Lord Lovel' 'Captain Wedderburn's Courtship', or 'The Suffolk Miracle' (three of the most popular ballads to be found here).
Certainly, thanks to Sharp, Tom Munnelly and the rest of them, the songs haven't gone; rather, what has disappeared is the oral tradition which gave them their vital life and function. Modern technology has ascertained that the renditions of the old songs have become more-or-less fixed and unchanged.
Personally, whatever the final objectives of the collectors were, be it preservation, publication or simply to pass the songs on to singers so they will cotinue to be sung, I have always been extremely grateful to the Sharps, Greigs, Duncans, Kidsons, Lomaxs, Munnellys et al; they have certainly stopped me from hanging round the street corners over the last forty years - prosit to all of them!
I have to say I find the 'no names, no pack drill' remark as offensive as I do terms like 'folk police' 'and finger-in-ear'. If we don't take people's statemets at face value and treat them as honest opinions, there is little point in discussion.
Such hole-in-corner language is far more suited to Monty Python's 'nudge-nudge' sketch than it is to the open, honest, friendly and informative (if sometimes overheated) discussion I have come to expect on Mudcat threads.
Jim Carroll

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Jim, can you please get into the habit of putting your name in the "from" box before you submit a message? Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 01:41 PM

I was booked at Broadstairs festival about1978,along withJezLowe and GedFoley,and BobLewis,and we saw Bob Lewis dressed up in full shepherds regalia,when he was due to perform his song spot.
Bob must have thought like Fred Jordan,that this was what the revival required him to do.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Saro
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 12:05 PM

Captain Birdseye, as far as I know, Dick Hall did some unacompanied singing (e.g. the stuff he sang for Gardiner) and he was much in demand for his "humourous ditties" which are mentioned in occasional reviews in the Hampshire Chronicle, without reference to an accompanist (though that doesn't mena that there wasn't one, of course). I how don't know how the balance of material would have worked out so can't really help there.
Saro

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 11:57 AM

Yes another good example of that sort of thing that Barbara is talking about is Will Noble, I tried for ages to work out what it was and I think it is subtle timing - that word or phrase hung on for (or shortened) just that 1,000 of a second - but repeated each time.

Mike Waterson sang the D-day dodgers and in the last verse there was always a minute pause between "in the mud and rain" and "you'll find scattered crosses". Magic.

I'd be interested to know what others think.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:23 PM

Friend Roy Harris sent me some of Fred Jordan's music and I'm truly glad to hear the man. (I know Roy from the time he and I were singing on the staff of Folk Singing Week at Pinewoods Camp in Massachusetts some years ago.) But there are so many U.K. source singers that we in the U.S. never got to hear. I'm enjoying finding out about them---even at this late date. Stewie (Mudcat name) in Darwin N.T. --Australia and Bob Bolton, also in OZ, have enriched my life immeasurably with packets of music we've exchanged over the nearly ten years I've been hanging around Mudcat. It sure is an ongoing process...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: BB
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:27 PM

Jeff (sp.!) Wesley has always sung songs from any source, be it the tradition, revival, radio, book, whatever. In addition, he has collected songs from other traditional singers locally, he has written tunes to poems, especially those referring to the locality, and has even been known to write songs himself.

The important thing about Jeff, and in fact any really good singer, is that they make the song so much their own that it's very difficult to work out what the source may be! When you listen to Jeff, you feel that he is totally at ease with any song he sings, of whatever style. To me, he is someone that everyone should try to hear.

I think it's true of Fred Jordan, too, but his choice of type of song was narrower than Jeff's, and his style of singing was perhaps harder to listen to for many people.

Barbara

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:25 PM

Sheila Kay Adam comments on how Cecil Sharp's collecting and subsequent publication hsd a tremendous influence among the folk he collected, and spurred a resurgence of interest on old "love songs' in Madison County, NC.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:19 PM

"The agenda of collectors has changed over the years."

That's certainly true! I should also say that I have the highest respect for some of the more recent collectors, who have displayed the highest standards of objectivity. I'm not sure that the same can be said for some recent commentators and critics, though.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:49 PM

Fred Jordan expanded his repertoire,by learning from revivalist singers.
Geoff Wesley recently learned a song written by MattArmour,a scottish songwriter.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM

The agenda of collectors has changed over the years.

The early collectors saw themselves as recording and at times preserving the dying remnants of a culture. They believed that both high and popular culture ignored its aesthetic and historical value.

Certainly some of the collectors not so often mentioned, Gomme and Addy for example behaved much better than others.

Addy for example always asked permission to record his informants and sent them copies of papers, etc

What collectors such as Sharp stressed about their singers was that they were the last remaining representatives of an era and there was little about them that was interesting apart from their position as tradition bearers.

Nowadays we see the singer and the context of their performance as much more important than the early collectors ever did and so we try and record it more.

Adapted from Georgina Boyes in "Singer Song and Scholar". PM me for the full reference.

Subject: RE: how were source singers influenced by revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:29 PM

Shimrod,you bet its alive and well today,and fairly evident on Mudcat too,no names no packdrill.