BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:11 AM

http://www.holocaustmemorialday.gov.uk/default.asp

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:56 PM

They were only children

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:37 PM

I agree with Shambles on the nomenclature issue--I don't take any comfort in the idea that the Bush Administration is merely Authoritarian--

Anyone who doubts that Bush and Hitler have used the same political strategies ought to go back and do a little remedial reading--Bush, and the few from his administration who are allowed to speak, even occasionally paraphrase bits of Nazi social philosophy--

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:11 PM

Again this preoccupation with the exact word for evil regimes. As if it really matters.

If you get bitten by a poisonous creature - and you wish to survive - it may be very important to know exactly what the species was - so as to be able use the correct anti-serum.

But other than that - debates about which one is more venomous than others matter little. As is probably enough to lump them together as posionous creatures and do your very best to avoid any contact with them or avoid creating any situations where these poisonous creatures can use their venom.

Any bite from any dictator is probably just as bad as a bite from a fascist dictator.....


I think this level of censorship is well-intended and perfectly acceptable..........

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM

BTW, I would describe the Bush administration as an extreme right wing authoritarian plutocratic regime. And yes, I know it is a mouthful, but I also believe it is accurate.

So, once again, I would NOT describe the Bush regime as totalitarian. Authoritarian.

To me, fascism and Nazism are both rooted in totalitarianism.

The use of words like "Nazi" and "fascist" are fast, easy, and sleezy--meaningless labels when used to describe the US government of the past 40 years.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

Before you all go charging off on your herd of high horses, remember the School of Americas was in operation throughout the Clinton/Gore administration, and the Democrats have been every bit as zealous about the "War on Drugs" (so long as it is waged in South America) as have the Republicans.

This American imperialist "fascism" (if that is what you wish to call it) is not unique to Republicans or Republican administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

At least they found Eichmann--and, eventually, Barbi. They never did find Mengele--

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 10:20 PM

Well said, M.Ted.

Remember the house on Garibaldi Street? And no one knew he was there. Right!

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:59 PM

Seems to me that South America became something of a second home to many, many, of those who put Nazi Germany on the map--

Some retired, others opened donut shops, but a number of them kept busy by helping to organize death squads, teaching torture techniques to the always curious police and military, and sending the odd postcard to their old investment banker, Prescott Bush, and getting to know his politically ambitious son, George Herbert Walker Bush--

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:13 PM

IMNSHO, Pinochet was a fascist!

Respectfully ... how close do we have to get to call a spade a spade. Why not start "early" when there's still time to avoid it?

If this was a far-left Democrat, we'd be hearing similar cries of "Communism".

I do agree that you can't equate Nazism with fascism, though. Nazism is a particular racially-motivated brand of it. As far as I can tell, I don't think Shrub is a Nazi.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:02 PM

Well artbrooks, we finally agree. I believe shrub to be much more Latin American dictator a la Pinochet, than Hitler. I fine the Hitler/Nazi/fascist analogies to be absurd. Just goes to show how shallow peoples' knowledge is of American military adventurism.

Think Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, and yes...under shrub II...Haiti.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 08:35 AM

I am certainly no fan of Bush or any of his syncopants. However, "fascist" and "fascism" have specific definitions which do not match the present situation or anything that has been proposed. That doesn't prevent Bush from from being a pocket dictator wannabe, or from his administration moving several steps closer to authoritarian rule than we have ever been outside of (real) wartime, or from him personally being a jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:09 AM

Dont worry Bobert......Guest GWT doesn't realise that Im *fluent* in Gaelic........Ake

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 11:46 PM

Screw all these attempts to use other languages to make folks seem like their opionions are, ahhh, bettter than someone elses...

Bush is a facist in every sense ot the word. He evokes extreme nationalism, is in bed with the industrialists and is using every thing in his power to quiet those with whom he doesn't agree...

Hitler would be proud...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM

Cur ita existimas? estne quod veritatem non amabant? dic, O Brutelle! dic ut sciam, ut omnes mudcattores sciant!

Puer cogitans

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM

Also...Unprovoked unilateral attack on another soveriegn nation is not exactly the action of a peace loving democracy..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM

Guest...Gwt.

I notice that you dont mention the holding of people in Cuba without charge for years,in degrading conditions....a typical Nazi tactic.

Nobody is suggesting that we have a fully fledged Facist regime ,but the danger signs are there fo all to see.
The idea that any who dont concur with their ideology is "evil".
Claims that God gives his blessing to all their enterprises.
Insinuation that our culture is better than any other ,and worth exporting all over the world despite massive evidence to the contrary.
An Orwellian world of state snooping, digital data stored,on every member of our society.

These things and many other dont in themselves amount to Facism, but they are a slow insidious move down that road.
Soon it wont just be muslims that are interned without trial but any who protest against this corrupt system.
We must be vigilant, as the red tiled roofs of Auschwitz could lie just around the corner ..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:56 PM

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:04 PM

Wikipedia:

"The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that

    * exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
    * uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
    * engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
    * engages in corporatism."


On this scale, Hitler scores FIVE. Hussein scores FIVE. Bush, Johnson, and Blair score ZERO.

How do I describe George Bush? As a person of average abilities who was elected President by dint of his father's name and influence, his own talents and "people skills," and teams of shrewd speechwriters and PR people. He doesn't come from a poor or lower middle-class background like Jackson, Lincoln, Nixon, or Clinton, nor is he a kind of distant aristocrat like Washington or FDR. He is a political conservative, an ideology that, in the United States, transcends parties, though since the sixties by far the larger number of conservatives have become the Republicans.

Eighteenth-century conservatism was wedded to custom in nearly all things. In the twentieth century it has become considerably more "liberal." Bush, for example, favors some form of the Social Security System, a concept denounced as "socialism" by conservatives of the 1930s and later. While opposing gay marriage he does not, for example, urge the enforcement of anti-sodomy laws which remain on the books in many states. He opposes abortion, but does not claim that abortion doctors or their patients are guilty of murder. He supports women in the military, reform in education, and dozens of other policies that are so commonly accepted that nobody thinks of them any more as liberal/conservative issues.

Bush is well to the left of most of our pre-Wilsonian presidents, who by modern standards look like far right do-nothings rather than "conservatives." (But still not fascists.)

Bush has sworn to "uphold the Constitution," and despite gray areas (like the rights of presumed terrorists) that will be decided by the courts, he has done so. He is ultimately responsible for the prevention of further terrorist attacks on the US, and whatever you may think of his specific policies, he is obviously taking this responsibility seriously. Conservatives tend to be more religious than liberals, and some of Bush's positions (as on abortion and stem-cell research) are based on his religious beliefs. However, he has never urged Congress, for example, to grant Christians or religionists of any kind any special civic status, and he's not conducting Mideast policy according to Revelation. In other words, Church and State remain separate.

If you still think Bush is a "fascist," just consider the sorts of things that a fascist leader would be doing right now. Like revoking the Bill of Rights, eliminating political opponents, abolishing labor unions, legislating compulsory military training, ending academic freedom, making sure that big business worked mainly to meet government "needs," declaring white supremacy, etc., etc.

The PBS program will be a needed reminder of what fascism is really like.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

Pol Pot a Marxist? [splutter] same goes for Stalin. They can call themselves whatever they'd like, but they murdered, too. stalin and Hitler had a lot more in common than you'd think. They were both authoritarians.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

Give us a break, Guy Who Thinks--if you think, you keep it to yourself--what you do is ridicule those who disagree with you-- a tactic that is not consistant with freedom of speech--

Personally, I've studied a bit of history-enough to know that many former Nazis, like Bylorussian mass-murderer Emanuel Jasiuk were welcomed into to the US after the war, and were brought into the CIA, Radio Free Europe, and other areas where their special "expertise" was needed--Their is an abundance of information that shows these "New Americans" were actively involved in politics, particularly the Republican Party--

Those who know about this get a bit nervous when situations like "Abu Graib" come up, and when prominent officials in the odd Bush administration official paraphrases the ideas of Joseph Goebbels--

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 10:56 AM

Okay, Guy who thinks, tell us what you would call Bush? But don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that he's a good hard-working Democratic man of and for the people, cause that he ain't.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 10:41 AM

Here we go again! Bush is "a fascist"??!! So he and his policies are just like Mussolini, Franco, and oh yeah Hitler? Read some history and political science and spare us this bull! (Pol Pot was a Marxist by training and a super-Stalinist in action. Again, like Bush? Like Johnson? Where do people get this stuff?)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:40 AM

I'm really not much help, being totally visually-impaired, but I'm watching (figure of speech; listening to, if you'd rather) "Auschwitz Part One" as I write. Lots of information there. I'm glad the entire thing wasn't nixed off the network, because I think it is important to learn about things, wonderful or horrific as they can be.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM

It is easy to grow bitter considering how much effort our generation threw into changing those mur ideas, only to find them surging back up a hundred fold under the fascism of Hussein, Bush, and a hundred earlier similar leaders, including Pol Pot and Johnson.

The convictions of force and violence come from deep springs, and raising up above them in an effective way is not a trivial task. Look, for example, at the weary and miserable distortion that has become Martin.


A

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:19 PM

When I was a kid, I saw some of the first pictures of Nazi extermination camps. Truthfully, this world is different for me for having seen them. Even as a kid who thought that cleavage was "holy wow" and Playboy the greatest thing since sliced bread, I could never look at the faces of naked women in some of those pictures and conceive of their breasts as sexualy stimulating objects. That is beyond any sickness I could imagine. So I have to wonder about anyone who feels morals and young minds will be corrupted by leaving the footage where it is. It's difficult to concentrate on tits when you have your head in a toilet bowl, puking because the vivid photographs of twisted, gassed bodies carelessly thrown into hastily dug trenches seems to address the darkest recesses of the human soul. I remember throwing up and wondering how this could have happened. And why it could have happened, and crying because the God I'd been told about had not only deserted his chosen people but had also deserted the rest of humanity, too.

Extreme censorship would not allow any of the documentary on television. So maybe people can be thankful that it will be shown at all. And maybe the horrors of that time--horrors that have been repaeted since in the killing fields of Cambodia and Uganda under Amin and Chile under Pinochet and Argentina under the junta and, and and--well, maybe our kids can learn something from that, and maybe that will help it never happen again. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:50 PM

Iv been following the BBCs presentation of the Auschwitz documentary with interest.
Most of it is based on the diaries of Rudolph Hoss and an autobiography written after his capture at the end of word war 2.

Forget about the censorship of nudity, which is unimportant.

I read the book containing his diaries and autobiography a few months ago, and his account has been severely censored and pieces used out of context.
As most people on this forum know I have nothing but contempt for the Nazi regime and those who supported it, but its amazing to see history rewritten as in this documentary.

The writing of Hoss gives chilling look at Auschwitz and the "final solution" as seen through the eyes of the SS, and looking at the authoritarian regimes in place in America and to a lesser extent UK, it could all very easily happen again...Ake

PS   The book is "KL Auschwitz,as seen by the SS"

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM

BTW, I wonder how can you censor a program after it airs? Has anyone seen a statement ftom PBS, from Ms. Mitchell or anyone else, about this, or are we leaping into universal condemnation based upon a four-line statement in a virtual media magazine?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:45 PM

Well, that much is apparent, considering their banal documentary and cowardly "news" reporting, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Like the 'Pretentious BullSh!t' station ever 'stood up' to anyone...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM

The worst aspect of this is PBS' cowardice. They are censoring this program BEFORE it airs, claiming they MUST do this to avoid fines they can't afford.

If there were any broadcasters who OUGHT to stand up to the FCC, it is PBS. But as someone else pointed out, they castrated themselves before the Congressional committees holding their purse strings a long time ago, in order to keep paying their executives too much.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM

I have also heard that NBC is possibly getting a fine from the FCC for using "naked" greek statues during its broadcast of the last olympics. All this brought to you by the same administration that allowed it's Justice Dept. to censor a statue that has been part of the federal collection for decades. What are they scared of?

As a sideline,
Does anybody else see a parallel between Iran/Contr (the fall of Ollie North) and the Abhu Graib scandal? Let the military folks take the fall? As far as I know no-one of high rank has really had to answer for this.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:00 AM

Sorry--those pronouns didn't agree. "Distract people with the horror of her breast on tv and maybe they won't notice that you're really taking away a little more of their right to free expression."

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:00 AM

Absurd

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

Sublimation. Shifting the focus. That's what her boob has to do with all of this. Sleight of hand. Distract people with the horror of her breast on tv and maybe they won't notice that you're really taking away a little more of your right to free expression.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:45 AM

As modern military "torture" goes, Abu Ghreib was hardly more than an American fraternity initiation. Furthermore, the incident was fully investigated by the US Army itself and at least some of the idiots responsible have been charged. The first one to be court-martialed has just been convicted.

To me, people who are pleased that they can lump a few violators of regulations who humiliated a dozen prisoners with the Nazi government that slaughtered six million have some serious problems with perspective, however humane their intentions may be.

Our world is a rotten place and we have to learn to navigate it as best we can. One basic way is to recognize like and unlike.

America had slavery! Russia had the Gulag! Gorsh, I guess we're the same!

(Of course, what all this has to do with Janet Jackson's right breast mystifies me.)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:21 AM

The reason why they show the naked prisoners is to try to demonstrate how the Nazis had reduced these people to subhuman in their own view. By denying them dignity and brutalising their prisoners it made them easier to abuse, torture and kill.

I agree Abu Ghreib does not closely resemble Auschwitz in purpose or by the demographic of its prisoners or gaolers, but the treatment metered out to Iraqi prisoners invites a degree of parallel because the torturers are still treating their charges in a demeaning and violent manner by torturing them. The warning of Auschwitz is this behaviour is NOT tolerable in the civilised world, no matter who has power over who.

If you cannot see THAT, then that is truly very scary.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:42 AM

Anyone who believes that Abu Ghreib closely resembles Auschwitz doesn't know a God-damned thing about either one. And that *is* scary.

Am I really the first one here to see the absurdity of this?

The absence of a few seconds of nudity in a Holocaust documentary won't make a difference, but PBS should air the original dare the FCC to complain.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 08:47 AM

Dumbed-down programming for a dumb-downed country.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:47 AM

Now that you know they're gonna 'change' it, if ya don't like it, don't watch it...

simple as that...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:09 AM

Oh dear. :)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:35 PM

Other than that preposition on the end of your sentence, you make a good argument, DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

Why not wait and see if it happens before hanging anybody (including PBS which I am not a fan of)?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:43 PM

Unbelievable! A documentary about Nazi concentration camps where people were starved, tortured and killed and they're afraid people might be outraged by a glimpse of a penis or breast? Something is screwed up somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:36 PM

Thank you for the links, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:31 PM

Thanks, T. One of the interesting things about this snippet is that it says, referring to Pat Mitchell, PBS President: he indicated that the scenes in question involved nudity and language. Pat Mitchell is a she. One assumes that the article is otherwise entirely factual.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:29 PM

PBS To Censor Newly Acquired HBO Docs

No Censor Power for BBC Governors

Scroll down to the stories.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Teresa
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:43 PM

The guest seems to have quoted the entire article, which can be found here. I can't seem to locate it on IMDB either.

teresa

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:22 PM

Nudity has as much to do with sexuality as mountains have to do with breasts. You can see a similarity if that's what you look for.

The spin that is put on 'concentration camps' (that was a death camp) has been with us for years. I would be interested to see what the Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies would have to say, because the question that will arise is this: Is the purpose of showing the documentaries still served with out those pictures. Sometimes a greater good is achieved. Maybe that is so in this case. And please, before anyone thinks I would even consider easing up those (many expletives deleted) Nazis, my ex father-in-law was a 'guest' of the glorious Reich for 2 1/2 years. He is still alive. Lucky I guess, if you can call that lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:39 PM

Sinsill hit the nail right on the head here... This ain't got nuthin' to do with nudity or language... It'a all about not wanting the American people to see just what the Bush regime and the Nazis have in common...

Again, I'll mention Riss Bellant's book "Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party" which follows many Nazis right into the Republican Party here in the US after the war... The Famed Republican think tank, the Heritage Council, was organized for the Repubs by former Nazi and Nazi syphathizers...

It is no wonder that, if history repeats itself, that we are seeing the same stuff out of the current batch of Nazis as the last bunch...

And while we're onte subject, guess what religion Hitler was a confessed member?

Bingo!

Bobert

p.s. This is not meant to be critique of Christianity as I am a follower of Jesus. Just a critique of folks who claim to be followers yet don't seem to have learned anything from the New Testament...