BS: We saw Lincoln today!

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:39 PM

Hmmm. Interesting. It's most unfortunate that they were not able to negotiate that earlier end to the Civil War.

It's my understanding (so far) that the primary sticking points were, quite simply...

1. Lincoln absolutely insisted on the Southern States rejoining the Union as a basis for peace.

2. The Southerners absolutely insisted on the CSA retaining its independence from the North as a basis for peace.

Those 2 positions being mutually exclusive, the negotiations failed to produce a peace settlement, and indeed were doomed from the start.

The South wanted its independence. The North wanted to preserve the Union. I think those 2 basic overriding issues were larger ones than the matters pertaining to slavery, race, and the 13th Amendment...but they were certainly connected with matters pertaining to slavery and the 13th amendment.

The South was desperate enough for manpower in the latter days of the war that they eventually decided to offer black men their freedom if they would enlist in the Confederate forces. Some did.

Below is a quote from an article on the subject:

"With so many white males conscripted and roughly 40% of its population unfree, the work required to maintain a functioning society in the CSA ended up largely on the backs of blacks.[24] Even Georgia's Governor Joseph E. Brown noted that "the country and the army are mainly dependent upon slave labor for support."[25] Slave labor was used in a wide variety of support roles, from infrastructure and mining, to teamster and medical roles such as hospital attendants and nurses.[26]

The idea of arming slaves for use as soldiers was speculated on from the onset of the war, but not seriously considered by Davis or others in his administration.[27] Though an acrimonious and controversial debate was raised by a letter from Patrick Cleburne[28] urging the Confederacy to raise black soldiers by offering emancipation, it would not be until Robert E. Lee wrote the Confederate Congress urging them that the idea would take serious traction. On March 13, 1865, the Confederate Congress passed General Order 14,[29] and President Davis signed the order into law. The order was issued March 23, but only a few African American companies were raised.[30] A company or two of black hospital workers was attached to a unit in Richmond, Virginia, shortly before the besieged southern capital fell.[30] A Confederate major later affirmed that the small number of soldiers mustered in Richmond in 1865 were "the first and only black troops used on our side."[30] However, there were varying accounts of black rebel troops. For instance the July 11, 1863 issue of the New York Herald reported: "...And after the battle of Gettysburg in July 1863, ...reported among the rebel prisoners were seven blacks in Confederate uniforms fully armed as soldiers..."

So, the inevitable (black emancipation in return for CSA service) was under way when the war ended...but it came far too late to make any significant difference to the Southern war effort.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM

"People who claim it's really "about" Obama are welcome to their opinion, but what it's really about is Lincoln, the 13th Amendment, and the end of the Civil War."

I could see some hints of President Obama's long term strategy in the film. But since he is a student of Lincoln, I think that can be put down to his knowing some of the same history as the film makers.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:00 PM

As I said on another thread when the film opened, "Lincoln" is one of the best movies I've ever seen. (In case anyone cares, "Lord of the Rings I" is Number One.)

"Lincoln" beats anything else Spielberg has ever done, including "Saving Private Ryan."

The Gettysburg Address business had me gritting my teeth in apprehension, but after those first few minutes the picture is virtually flawless.   

People who claim it's really "about" Obama are welcome to their opinion, but what it's really about is Lincoln, the 13th Amendment, and the end of the Civil War.

Lincoln had a stark choice: end the war immediately and save 75,000 lives, or guarantee that the Emancipation Proclamation wouldn't be neutralized by Southern congressmen in a postwar Congress.

When the Southern negotiators had the final choice, they decided to keep the war going for months (though they were clearly beaten), rather than accept a Constitution ending slavery and giving legal equality to black people.

And yes, the "surprise" ending is based on fact.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

I saw Lincoln the other day. After all, it's only about 30 miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM

This chap (Charles Edward Bull) played Lincoln in John Ford's silent film "The Iron Horse".
http://fan.tcm.com/_Charles-Edward-Bull-as-Abraham-Lincoln/photo/17660867/66470.html?enlarge=true

Bull looked more like Abe than Daniel Day Lewis but his performance was a bit weird for my taste! Every time another character spoke to him, he put his head on one side   i-n-c-r-e-d-i-b-l-y    s-l-o-w-l-y , then paused for about a minute before offering his VERY considered reply.

I suppose in them days it was considered pretty near the knuckle to show Lincoln on screen (like Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 10:44 AM

meself ~~ Quite right ~ Raymond Massey was Canadian. I was misled by the fact that he married an English actress, Adrienne Allen, and lived and worked largely in UK, and both their children, Anna & Daniel, became famous British actors.

Apologies for inaccuracy, something I endeavour to avoid at all times.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:28 PM

I get the DVD if I REALLY like the movie, and want to watch it repeatedly. Avatar definitely met those criteria.

Jack, regarding why people voted for Nixon...well, you'd have to ask a Republican. They'd have their reasons, I'm sure. One thing to remember...Humphrey wasn't too inspiring either. I'd have found it very hard to vote for either one of them back in '68. Bobby Kennedy was who I was hoping for. Then he got killed. But in '72, I'd definitely have voted for the Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM

We saw Avatar twice in 3d. Once on Imax AWESOME!!! and have the DVD which paling next to the theater experience, we have only watched the features and commentary.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM

Yes Deb, I think it may be a DVD worth having if the features are good.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: DebC
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:47 PM

The movie was very narrowly focused: a snapshot that was about the passing on the 13th amendment which abolished slavery in the US. An excellent depiction of how our political system probably worked back then. There have been many parallels drawn between that legislation and the gridlock in today's US Congress.

The movie was amazing and was done very very well. There is a great interview with Sally Field on NPR Talk of the nation about her portrayal of Mary Todd; how she was chosen and how she prepared.

Everything JtS has said about the movie is spot on. I might add that I am a very harsh critic when it comes to film and TV. This was one of the best films I have seen in a long long time.

The other half and I will probably go and see it again.

Debra

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:31 PM

The movie certainly presents Lincoln as a flawed man.

Day Lewis presents him as a storyteller with a twinkle in his eye. Of all the portrayals of Lincoln, I have seen, this is the only time I have seen a character I would happily vote for. That is one of the many reasons I am so impressed with this movie.

Now I want to see a movie that explains why people voted for Nixon. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM

Good post. As you say, Lincoln was a man of his time. If people cannot understand historical context, then they can't understand history.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: ollaimh
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:36 PM

the native officer shown several times in the movie lincoln was ely parker. a full blood iroquois from the seneca nation. parker was aide de camp to grant. grant had to personnaly intercede to let him join the army as natives were barred from american military service at the time. parker was most well know for his stoic demeanor under fire and in the worst deisaters, and was a help to grant at these times when grant would often retreat into the bottle. parker is most famous for writting the draft terms of surrender of the confederacy at appamattox.parker mustered out as a full colonel if i remember correctly and was one of the finest union officers. ir was even said thst there were a few occasiona when grant was too deep in drink, parker would direct the war effort personally.

parkers presence at appomatox was a grievous insult to the confederaste officers who were avowed and open white supremists, but grant insisted he he there as he wrote the terms of surrender and was the chief aide de camp. lee did not object when they got to the famous court house, but then he was defeated.

of course nothing in american history is an aid or liberating to natives. the american and canadian nations are based on an unrequited and unacknowledged genocide. lincoln was a man of his time. you could not give legal rights to natives and build the america they lived in. at least lincoln started the liberation of the african slaves. unfortunately it took untill lyndon johnson to finish it with the civil rights act.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:16 PM

Oh, that stuff...

No thanks. I'd happily watch Avatar another 10 or 20 times before bothering with the Twilight series.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:12 PM

Vampires having babies.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM

What is "Breaking Dawn" about?

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: meself
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:51 AM

Massey was Canadian, far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:48 AM

Entry point for a roundtable discussion among Ta-Nehisi Coates, A.O. Scott, and Kate Masur about history and Steven Spielberg's movie at The Atlantic.

Additional responses at Ta-Nehisi Coates's blog: . (And while you're at it, check the thoughts on Jefferson.) I respect TNC's perspective immensely, and his comments section is rigorously policed and consequently quite readable, too.

Historians Respond to Spielberg's Lincoln, an overview at the blog of the Harvard University Press (as linked from first post at the above).

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:15 PM

'Couldn't they find an Amerikan actor to play Abe ?'
.,,.
There is, oddly, a long tradition of Englishmen playing him. In the 30s-40s, it was Raymond Massey, who had a strong facial resemblance. Gosling is at least Canadian, which is a bit closer maybe.

Actually, Meryl Streep could make a fair fist of playing Victoria, if it were not that she is much too tall.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:56 PM

Bill, Lewis is perfect in the role. I know you will enjoy it in spite of your questionable taste in movies.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:37 PM

I've visited Cherokee NC. Not all of the Cherokee went west on the trail of tears. Some stayed in the Smokies. Because the Eastern Band sided with the Union during the civil war, that part of the mountains is now a reservation.

The tribe is running a casino, that I avoid. Because it's near the Smokey Mountain National Park the place is full of tourist traps. But there is a lovely little museum, and a tribal co op, where you can find things made by actual Native Americans. If you're in the area, I would reccomend a visit. (You can't buy beer at the supermarket. I don't care. I've met people who do.)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: number 6
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM

Couldn't they find an Amerikan actor to play Abe ?? It's sort of like having Meryl Streep portrayng Queen Victoria.

Best movie since Avatar ...Geeesh Jack, Breaking Dawn was better than Avatar.

anyway

In all seriousness I'm looking forward to seeing Lincoln

biLL... :)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:02 PM

Rent it, Jack. It's one hell of a good movie. And I don't usually even like movies along that general line, but that one was different.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:59 PM

Did you see "Drive", with Ryan Gosling? I loved that one.

nope.

You would like the tv series.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:55 PM

An unincorporated community.....near Roswell, where the aliens hang out....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln,_New_Mexico

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:40 PM

Hmmm. Never seen any of them. But I did like the recent 2 Sherlock Holmes movies, although I thought the action scenes were overdone in the second one. I'd like a little more mystery, a little less of the incredible action sequences.

One action comedy I really enjoyed was Tropic Thunder. I also like most of the Schwarzenneger films from the 80s and 90s.

Did you see "Drive", with Ryan Gosling? I loved that one.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:04 PM

Snatch is the best Guy Ritchie movie. Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels is not far behind. If you like funny action movies, you will probably like them a lot. See them before the recent Sherlock Holmes movies!

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:47 PM

I don't know a thing about either Guy Ritchie or steam punk. I might check out the Spiderman one.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM

The Avengers was a great Super Hero flick. the New Spiderman was better than the first three. Better action cockier Spiderman, better stunts.

You might like the latest Sherlock Holmes movie if you like Guy Ritchie action and steam punk.

The current Sherlock Holmes TV series is good, especially if you like the humor of the current Dr. Who series.

As I have said, I have seen nothing since Avatar as good as Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM

Umm...hmmm...(?) Well, I'm not sure. Perhaps a little bit funny. But not all that funny, really. It depends on your sense of humour, I guess.

Have you seen any other movies lately that you would recommend highly? I do plan to see "Lincoln" as soon as it hits the local theatres. I don't think it has yet.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:48 PM

There seems to be a recurring joke on this thread about place names. Has anyone found it funny? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:39 PM

So, Jack, you've seen Lincoln, huh?

Well, I'll go you one better on that. I've seen Schenectady.

- Chongo

p.s. Nutbush is where Tina Turner came from. It's a tiny little place. Ike and Tina even had a song about it: Nutbush City Limits. I useta party with them back in the day, but I stopped talkin' to Ike after I found out how bad he was treatin' Tina. There ain't no excuse for nonsense like that.

Nutbush City Limits

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: fat B****rd
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM

Nutbush.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM

What will get named after George W. ?
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:51 PM

They name things after Presidents here. What is wrong with that?

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today! jts
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM

That was Lincoln County, Al.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM

There are Lincolns all over, Al, coz they're a load of koppikatz. But you know as well as I do there's only one *real* one...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:25 PM

Wasn't there a Lincoln in New Mexico, where they tried to hang Billy the KId?

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:19 PM

Actually, the true and original Lincoln is in Lincolnshire ~~ I saw it just last month.

Beware of all fakes and imitations!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:12 PM

Don't know what way Fenman went, but 16 miles should have got him to Newark. (That would be the original Newark, Ron.) Hence double-16 on the strange all-black doubles darts boards favoured in Newark was always known as a "Lincoln."

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:00 PM

I don't think he does that on a regular basis. Once is impressive enough.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:59 PM

Lincoln's in Nebraska, Newark's in New Jersey.    In the US it would take a bit more than 20 miles to see them both.   And actually I don't think either one is really a huge tourist draw. Though Cory Booker, mayor of Newark, is a fascinating guy.   Overcame quite a bit of corruption to get elected, and now, as I recall, he rescues people from burning buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:48 PM

You will enjoy it LH. It is everything you say you love about a history movie combined with Speilberg's art.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM

Hmmm. You and I seem to be agreeing about more stuff lately, Jack. This gives me hope that we may eventually see peace in the Middle East and an end to the international arms race!

I shared your low opinion of "The Iron Lady" (for the same reasons you gave), and I also absolutely loved Avatar, probably my favorite film ever! I suspect that I will also thoroughly enjoy "Lincoln", judging by your description of it. Daniel Day-Lewis is one of the greatest actors around. I still watch "Last of the Mohicans" about once a year.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM

By the way, The Lakota have SAVED PE'SLA!!! YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

November 30th, they completed the raising of $9 million to buy back their land and protect their most Sacred Site forever!

I bet Russell Means was smiling down..but it's still a shame he didn't get to live long enough to celebrate with them all. They raised over $73,000 in just 10 days, via the online petition in Facebook...

They are SO PlEASED!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM

Catchy tune on your video, Al. Gave me an earworm.
I think you have a hit there.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:55 AM

We saw Lincoln today! its.........

near North Hykeham!

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:04 AM

Greg! Mind your manners. Young people fall in love with folk music, come to a forum like Mudcat, and find a foul mouthed little poster like yourself.
Do you speak this way in public?
I hope not.
For your sake.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Like turds.

Subject: RE: BS: We saw Lincoln today!
From: meself
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:38 AM

'No mention of native Americans, but there was a man that looked like one in the background, in a union military uniform near the end of the film.'

Haven't seen the film, but I would assume that personage is intended as Ely Parker, a hereditary Iroquois chief who became one of Lincoln's top generals. Was there at Appomotax, at the signing of the surrender. In fact, he penned the actual document.

Also, btw, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs for awhile, under Lincoln.