TECH: Sing it in, get dots out

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 08:07 PM

It doesn't have to be a piano - I find one of my whistles in the key of the track, work out how to play the tune on the whistle, and then transcribe it note by laborious note. Then re-work it three or four times till it sounds something like what I want.

Send me one you tapes, Mario and I'll see what I can make of them.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 07:32 PM

*sigh* I never said they didn't teach me anything about music - I said they were unable to teach me to READ music.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM

I don't know, MMario, it sounds like you have learning differences, which means that the way that those "excellent" teachers teach is not the way you learn.

Since a teacher teaches, and they didn't teach you, then were not really teachers(at least for you). And in spite of the fact that none of them could teach, you managed to teach music to yourself-- since you didn't know anything about music in the first place, that makes you a better teacher than they were--and since you managed to learn something from a person who knew nothing, I am sure that someday, when you find someone that knows something about both music and how to teach it to you, you will be able to learn--

Subject: Tunes for the Digital Tradition
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM

Yeah, I suppose it's kind of ironic that Joe Offer and MMario are working on the Digitrad tunes. I don't play an instrument and I don't sight-read music, but Sister John Bosco did a good job of teaching me music theory. I can't transcribe by ear, but my ear is good enough to tell me when an interval is wrong or the meter is off - and then I send the tune back to MMario for correction. I try not to hurt his feelings, but sometimes I'm a little hard on poor MMario.

After MMario and I finish with the tunes, I send them on to Dick Greenhaus for conversion into SongWright and inclusion in the Digital Tradition. Dick has been swamped with tunes because of MMario's tune-gathering campaign, so it may be quite some time before all the tunes get included.

If at all possible, I like to see Digital Tradition tunes that are transcribed from printed sources. We're looking for the melody only, no fancy stuff - and it's very helpful if you identify the source of the tune.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:28 PM

guest - I have been *trying* to learn to read music for over 40 years. I suffered through frustration in company with many excellent teachers. The best I can do is a painful count the lines & recite the mnemonics. For every note. On a good day, every other note. Unless I already know the tune - then I can just watch for ups and downs. If someone will give me the note.

The various transcription and notation programs have been a godsend for me. 10 years ago if I saw a "new" song I had to find someone to play it or sing it for me. Now I can plug it into the computer myself.

It's not totally gibberish to me - but close to it. Yes, my "ear" is reasonably good. [for relative pitch. As far as absolute pitch I have not ever been able to match note names to what they sound like - in either direction] I would say I am an "adaquate" singer. (would be *much* better if I could hold a tempo - or consistantly hit my opening note.) But I can COPY music; I can take a midi and (with reasonable frequency) pull the melody line out of it. I can usually tell if the lyric "fits" a tune - and make minor adjustments.

As far as becoming able to keyboard - I still have difficulty chewing gum and walking at the same time - and my friends frequently plead with me NOT to try and clap along with *anything*. Eyehand coordination sucks. My typing skills dropped by 75% when I went from pure "hunt and peck" to touch typing (a required course) and it has taken me close to thirty years to regain them.

I realize that this *is* not a normal situation. But I can assure you it is not from lack of trying.

For me - working with sheet music is the equivilant of an illiterate who can copy the letters from a book. But I haven't the foggiest what it "says" until I get it to play over the speakers.

But I am willing to bet there are others out there in the same boat I am.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

I have to ask you why, after five years of working with something, you haven't taken time to learn some basic skills that would make it much, much, more rewarding?

Most community colleges with music programs offer non-credit, evening classes in piano--with little work, and practice, you will be able to read music, and play the instrument well enough to get exactly what you want out of it in notation and sequencing--I have only recently read here that you are a very good singer, which means that you have a good ear--combine it with some basic piano technique, and you will be able to do a lot!

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 02:31 PM

gee - how can I say this guest. You are wrong.

I cannot with any sort of ease pick out a melody on a keyboard - even a song I have been singing for many many years. I have a great deal of trouble picking out a single note version of chopsticks with any kind of consistancy.

I have been using notation software for about 5 years now and while I do not claim to be any great shakes can and do edit frequently. JoeO will confirm that what I produce doesn't always match accepted musical scores - but they are usually recognizable as the tunes they are suppossed to be.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

MMario,

If you can't pick out a melody on the keyboard, you will be over your head with any sequencing/notation software, because no matter how music data is entered, you always need to do a lot of editing--

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM

kat - be careful - I may take you up on that!!!

*grin*

do have a couple I would love to get into sheet music form. May send you a tape - and you could do them at your leisure.

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:31 PM

Looks as though I misremembered. Sorry for getting your hopes up. Notation Software has to have a midi fed into it in order to print sheet music and Real Producer does not make midis.

MMario, if you need any help with picking out tunes on a keyboard, I'd be happy to help. Have keyboard, have Noteworthy, have ability.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:27 PM

Hmmmm. I took a look at the Sound2MIDI Website, and the product does look interesting. It converts only from a single source that plays or sings one note at a time, so you can't pick out a melody from a CD track unless you can isolate a single instrument.
Don't think I'll bother trying it, but I'd sure like to hear a report from somebody who's had experience with something like this.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:08 PM

Well, there is Sound2Midi

No idea how well it works though

Paul

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:01 PM

Guest - speaking from experience - for some people - myself included - it is NOT a simple thing to pick out a single note melody on a keyboard.

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 12:52 PM

What do you want to use the software for, Aardvark? If you just want to write out melodies-remember, it is a simple thing to pick out a single note melody on a keyboard and enter it, even one note at a time, into either a sequencer or notation software, and you can play it back to see if it is right, and if not, change it. You don't even need to be able to play the keyboard. If(and when) there is a good audio recognition software for this purpose, you will still have to work out your vocal part perfectly before you enter it, or do a lot of work cleaning it up.

Big problem with converting midi performance to notation is that when you play an instrument, time values are not exact--quarter notes might actually be dotted eights with a sixteenth rest--if you are converting vocal performance, you'll have to deal with that, plus the fact that in vocal performance, pitch values fluctuate, and four counts of "C" might really be more of a high B at the beginning, move up to a C#, and maybe even trail off to as low as an A--Don't believe me? Just get your electronic tuner, set in on "Mic" and try to sing and hold each of the pitches--

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 12:28 AM

I'll will confirm this tomorrow, by trying it again, but as near as I can remember I've done this in the past. I'll get back to you.:-)

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 10:32 PM

kat, are you sure on that? I thought Real Producer was a product designed to produce output, including live broadcasts, in Real Audio formats. I know nothing of the MIDI capablilties.

I did look at some Audio recognition software quite a while ago but at that stage, as far as I could make out it was not very reliable and I would guess that voice would be incredibly difficult.

I'd certainly be interested in learning more.

Jon

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 09:51 PM

Whoa, really, kat? That's amazing....gonna have to try those! Do they really work as described?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:19 PM

You can sing it into Real Producer, then go to Notation Software and click on the midi you just produced and it will print it out in a jiffy. I don't have time to put in links, off to an appt, but if you search for either in the threads, there's been a lot said about them. There are free evaluation modes of each.

Subject: Sing it in, get dots out.
From: GUEST,Aardvark
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

Does anyone out there know of any software that if you sing the melody it will write out the music dots for you ?