5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Auggie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM

Numerous articles in the somewhat liberal, definately not Republican Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal newspaper support Doug R's contention.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:17 PM

DougR says:

The tires were on vehicles that the local GOP had rented to transport voters who needed a ride to the polls. Because they were not available on election day, many people were deprived of being able to vote.

Any evidence of this, DougR? Are you sure the GOP didn't just go and rent some more vans?

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:07 PM

Why you ask, Doug? Simple. Because that incident involved a handful of people. What the republicans did in Florida was a much bigger issue, they screwed thousands out of their right to vote.

The thing is (and I agree with Doug that what they did is dead wrong) it seems like most people just pay lip service to the dirty deed IF it is the other party, and if it's THEIR party, they go nuts!

In other words, sure he's a scoudrel, but he's OUR scoundrel. Classic case of, it makes a difference whose ox is gored.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:12 AM

Hear, hear, hear, DougR.

A

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:44 AM

"Dirty tricks committed by either party to prevent people from exercising their voting right is wrong."

That is a principle to hold on to like a lifebelt. For example if there is ever again something like Florida 2000 - by either party.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:35 PM

Yes, McGrath, I agree with you (where that leaves Ebbie, I'm not quite sure). Dirty tricks committed by either party to prevent people from exercising their voting right is wrong.

DougR

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

McGrath I think most people know that we are well and trully in the box, mainly through economic reasons.
Many people I know are working up to 80hr weeks to pay credit bill ,morgage payments and living expenses.

In all my life I'v never seen so many people with two or even three jobs.

Oh yes we're in the box all right,and the way out isn't the one marked "democracy".

If we want a better life for our people in the future, we'll have to kick that bloody box to pieces..Ake

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:04 PM

One reason for the different scale of reaction might be the different scale of the offence.   

When people interfere with elections - either in this daft way, or in the organised and coordinated way it is sometimes done, where tens of thousands of peole are deprived of the vote by corrupt officials - that is an offence to all honest citizens, regardless of their voting preferance.

I would quite agree with Doug that, if people see that kind of thing as excusable or unimportant, just because their own side might benefit, that is disgraceful. In fact, when it their own side that benefits, that is the time an honourable citizen will get most angry. Don't you agree, Doug? Wasn't that why you were so vociferous in denouncing that kind of thing, for example in regards to what happened in Florida in 2000?

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:01 PM

Because, Mister Bright Bulb, "raving and ranting" is not productive. We spoke against it- isn't that good enough? You want us to go out and slash some of our own tires?

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM

The tires were on vehicles that the local GOP had rented to transport voters who needed a ride to the polls. Because they were not available on election day, many people were deprived of being able to vote.

The Kerry lovers on the Mudcat have ranted and raved about Democrats who were allegedly deprived of voting for one reason or another (not enough voting machines, not enough time, not enough ballots, etc.) Why don't we hear those same people ranting and raving about this injustice?

DougR

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

I can't remember it working like that, akenaten. Tokenism isn't really that effective, and that's what that kind of thing is. Now, if we'd been able just to stop where we were in Whitehall, and refuse to go home, that might have got things moving, but the kind of symbolic street heroics that just trashes the place is a waste of time, and presents no kind of problem to the authorities.

They know how to deal with that stuff. In fact, it's what they want to see happen. It's not jumping out of the box, it's jumping into the box.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:12 PM

McGrath...Like yourself , I marched with the hundreds of thousands against the war.
We marched in an orderly manner to the rallying point, where we heard a few speaches from a few politicians,then in an orderly manner, we went home for our tea.
The end of the 15th Feb Anti War march was a complete anti- climax.
We had so much raw emotion amongst the crowd, and we squandered it, the government continued to lie and manipulate, in fact they completely ignored us.

Looking back on the demonstrations of the past, the ones that made the difference were those where force was used, damage caused ,and a signal given that the people would fight for what they believe in.

Our rulers are quite happy to keep us fooled that we can achieve anything by "democratic means".
They dont like it when we jump out of the box..Ake

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 11:18 AM

MG said That's because Amos lives for this place.

this is his life, folks.

The pot is calling the kettle black these days, eh?

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:36 AM

Gesture politics like that isn't "revolution", it's just a way of playing. Rolling Stones "Street Fighting Man" stuff.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Teresa
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:49 AM

Yes, indeed, Akenaton, those are revolution words, and I have to say I agree with them. I don't think most people do, however. It'll take some travelling into much harder times, I'm afraid, before folks start protesting on a grand scale.

That said, I was going to post here that I think this and the other thread, which I accidentally posted my comment on, are silly sniping, and we don't need it.

I want to meet both these 'catters at the getaway. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:38 AM

Ebbie....I didn't really miss the message.

My point is that we DONT have a democratic process.

In the UK and USA, people have stayed in their "democratic" boxes too long. Why do the ordinary people always have to play fair ,while those who rule us do the opposite.
There used to be an argument which said that any protest only makes matters worse,but both our societies are now set on a course which must be protested against ,regardless of the consequences.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:29 AM

akenaton, you're missing the message big time. The allegation is that aides/volunteers/whatever of the Democratic Party went out and slashed tires of vehicles that were meant to take registered Republicans to the polls the next day. In every election both sides want to get out the vote; dirty tricks to keep the other side home is definitely NOT part of the democratic process.

Dirty tricks in elections have been discovered from time to time- notably in Nixon's time - but we, the people, frown on it. Not to mention that if one side does it, the other side will do something worse and it escalates from there.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:57 PM

They used to talk of the inhabitants of communist countries as being "brainwashed"

Dont you people realise that if you don't start kicking back soon it will be too late.

I would say to Bearded Bruce that these people would certainly be my friends, and the question he poses, asks more of himself than of Amos.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

I just don't understand American thinking.
Is it some sort of insult to be referred to as "friends" of the people who slashed the tyres?

These people were protesting against an administration which instigated an "illegal" war for spurious reasons against a virtually unarmed sovereign nation ,resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.....and you're horrified about a few tyres?
   Now thats what I call CONDITIONING!!       Pathetic...Ake

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:59 PM

Ah. We're of the same opinion, which is what I thought.

I obviously did not make a clear statement with "There is one major difference between the 'liberal' Democrats and the 'conservative' Republicans. Liberals make no bones or excuses about the legality or appropriateness of vandalizing cars for whatever reason. I suspect that if it were the conservatives responding to one of their own, we'd hear totally different reasoning."

I meant that the liberals/Democrats are agreeing with the conservatives/Republicans as to the wrongness of the vandalism, and then further implying that the cons/Reps might not have the same reaction had it been Republican vandals.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

That and 18 minutes of tape.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM

My point was that the Democrats in this case stood up and were willing to testify against the accused criminals despite party affiliation. Under the Nixon administration lying to protect the accused burglars and their keepers tainted the very presidency.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:48 PM

I know, Don Firth. That is why I wondered what Sinsull was referring to.

Marvin, in another thread you mentioned the time-honored humo(u)r Jews have always used. You might consider the fact that their humor is famously self-deprecating. You don't seem to have internalized it.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:36 PM

OK, so we have Amos going to the Getaway.

Now, if we could get Martin Gibson to go, we could smother him with warm fuzzies and turn him into a bleeding-heart liberal....

Well, come to think of it, warm fuzzies make me gag. As penance for suggesting such a thing, maybe I'd better go out and slash some tires.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:31 PM

Or we shall surely hang separately -- Tom (thanks to B. Franklin)

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:25 PM

And I for one think we ought to hang together!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

Martin:

I don't live for the Mudcat.

But I have friends here, so I try to treat their slice of cyberspace with a bit of courtesy and respect, and, ya know, not pee in the soup.

You LIVE on peed-in soup.

A

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:37 PM

BBruce is an amiable guy, Amos, as I know you are..*grin*....I don't 'think' I'll need to referee....besides, you both disagree with ME on lotsa stuff.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:33 PM

That's because Amos lives for this place.

this is his life, folks.

anyone who takes all of the time and trouble as he does shows how narrow an Internet life can be.

So he assembles loads of documentation proving a point here.

I'd rather just fuck around, have a good time, and do some other stuff that's life enhancing while he's trying to prove a point that will be an old topic tomorrow and no one will care.

Ah, the ENTERTAINMENT of it all.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:25 PM

When some idiots commit this kind of prank/crime, isn't it worse when you learn they're from one's own "side"?

I, for one, enjoy news of this kind much more when I can blame it on "those other guys." I'm sure that's how BB was feeling when he so belatedly found this bit of old news.

Why single out Amos, though? Why not, for instance, me? I feel left out...

I suppose it because Amos is not only persistent but also so thorough and diligent in assembling evidence and documentation for his arguments ~ can't get to him via reasoned debate, so only a cheap shot will do.

Subject: RE: 5 Dems to Stand Trial for Slashing GOP Tires
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM

LOL!

I have promised Joe I would go to the Getaway and make friends with BBruce.

Thanks, guys. I love you too.

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:41 PM

Ebbie, other way around. When the Republicans broke into Democratic headquarters in the Watergate Hotel and the Democrats howled about it, it was the Republicans who tried to stonewall, hush it up, and generally make it sound like a minor prank.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

Well, I told Amos that if he was gonna slash them tires that it'd come back to bite him, but would he listen to me???

Heck no, and now he's payin' the price...

Bad, Amos, bad...

Now repent and slash no more...

Rev. Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:06 PM

I dunno about "common denominator" but it sure appeals to the lowest sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

The problem is that crime is crime and not the exclusive 'property' of any given political group. The Reps had Nixon and the Dems had Clinton. Yippee. What a joy is democracy and appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM

Evidently I have forgotten Watergate, Sins. Are you saying that it was the Republicans who were outraged at the stupidity of the breakin and the Democrats who said, Oh, that's OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:22 PM

Actually "Friends of Amos" has a great ring to it. Sort of Old Testament Vigilantes. John Brown style, with a wild-eyes prophet bringing on the Day of Wrath...

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:05 PM

Ebbie, Dear Lady. You say "I suspect that if it were the conservatives responding to one of their own, we'd hear totally different reasoning." Have you forgotten Watergate?

And we're off...

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:38 PM

I'll go with LH - this thread has shown the high esteem in which Amos is held on this site.

Sins - include me in on the Getaway mischief here. More victims!

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: annamill
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:35 PM

Drat! I was just coming in to put my name on the long list and here it is a bad joke.

In my day, a long time ago, those "kids" would've been brought by their ears to their parents and Dad would kick their ass and make them pay for the damage and apologize.

Today, we put them in jail. That will make them better persons. (tongue in cheek) Yes, they should be strongly punished, but I have my doubts that prison would be the best teacher.

Along with all the others, I love you too, Amos.

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:25 PM

vandalism is vandalism, no matter whose tires were slashed......

but even suggesting that one of our members might approve of such idiocy is bad taste or careless phrasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

There is one major difference between the 'liberal' Democrats and the 'conservative' Republicans. Liberals make no bones or excuses about the legality or appropriateness of vandalizing cars for whatever reason. I suspect that if it were the conservatives responding to one of their own, we'd hear totally different reasoning.

I too hope that this thread was meant as a goodnatured jab to the ribs. Anything else would be nastier than usual. Judging by what outrages him, Amos is a thoughtful and articulate good man.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: jimmyt
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM

I enjoy Amos around here and have nothing against BB, but honestly, I sort of took the whole thing tongue in cheek and would be surprised if there was more of an agenda than just that. If I am wrong, you can just say,"well there is another obtuse Conservative."

Whomever did this act of vandalism is a vandal. Wrong is wrong, whether it is one party or the other.

But, back to the thread title, Bearded Bruce, if it was a joke, why not just say so and everyone will put away the brass knuckles and get back to normal?

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:49 PM

Martin, slashing tires is vandalism. I'm against that and think that WHOEVER does it should be punished. Maybe not hung, drawn and quartered, but punished. And I don't care if it were Howard Dean, Jena Bush, or Ralph Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:48 PM

First, Amos is a friend of mine.
Second, IF that charge of vandalism is true they should be punished in a manner that fits the crime. What they did hardly rises to the level of what the republicans did in Florida, driving blacks away from the polls, removing their names from the voting lists etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:41 PM

Martin, how can we forget about Amos, he's our buddy.

That's why everyone is a bit miffed at beardedbruce.

When I first read the thread, I didn't take it as a specific dig against Amos. I felt that it could easily have been any of our Democrat posters.

As for the tire slashing. A mean spirited act of vandalism. And that is what everyone is saying when they rush to the defence of Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: GUEST,~S~
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:33 PM

I think this qualifies as the Official Opening of Silly Season-- that annual season at Mudcat when we do the dumbest things for the silliest reasons, and spark off a round of upset among all the rest of the gang-- it's really cabin fever laced with a little SAD and CRS! It's usually best (in Silly Season) to just roll one's eyes and let "it" (whatever the manifestation) just go.

C'mon, old regulars-- admit it. It's Silly Season! No avoiding it.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:28 PM

I don't know Amos personally, but from his posts, I know him to be thoughtful and well-informed. He has the courage and incentive to advocate his views strongly, along with plenty of citations and documentation to back up what he says—something that not everybody seems to be able to do.   Some people here on Mudcat who don't share that viewpoint, or perhaps especially Amos's backing up what he posts with documentation, seem to feel impelled to attack him as a person rather than attempt to present rational, well-documented arguments of their own. This is the sort of thing one expects from those who operate on their gut-reactions rather than from positions arrived at through a rigorous thought process.   

That was a cheap shot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:54 AM

Well, I do know that in Indiana, cars with "vote kerry"-type stickers on them often had the stickers taken off again and again. I hadn't heard of any specific vandalism but there were several people worried that their car would be vandalized if they put a kerry sticker on it. I didn't hear any worries about bush stickers.

But what the actions of people on the lunatic fringe willing to obstruct democracy by vandalizing vehicles involved in the process have to do with either party, or with Amos, is rather beyond me. Isn't it just plain stupid to obstruct those with different beliefs, no matter what your beliefs are? Would you be happy that someone vandalized cars, as long as they were the "enemy" cars?

I'm a friend of Amos. And being a friend of his has nothing to do with my political beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends of Amos?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:53 AM

IMO, the problem isn't slashed tires, per se; it is, rather, people who hang around on the streets carrying knives. Frankly, I don't see things like Watergate as being specifically Republican peculiarities. They are human and definitely stupid. Stupidity isn't confined to a specific part of the political spectrum.