Capoing: What Key?

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:58 AM

Some more useful capo info here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capo

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:42 AM

Tom,

Thanks so much for your concise [& non-confrontational] response, cheers!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

"Without no sharp nor flat attached" - i.e. one of the white notes on the piano.

You only usually say 'natural' to stress that you don't mean sharp or flat - because, for example, if you refer to the note F when you're dealing in the key (scale) of G major - it would be taken to mean F sharp UNLESS you specifically said F natural.

It's the name of a note, not a of key (meaning a scale, really) - though it IS of course an actual key that you press down on the old joanna.

Very confusing, I do admit. Tom

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:16 AM

Stu,

Thanks once more for your help & also to others above for theirs.

This is a discussion forum, so which directions a theme may follow are implicit in the meaning of the concept.

********

I've a further query, [if I'm permitted to ask or if certain 'Philistines' don't object] - what does the term 'natural' mean in relation to naming keys?

Someone above mentioned this & I've heard it before, as in 'G natural' or from s&r's post above;

'If you write music in the key of - say - F#major, the seventh note of the scale is E#/F natural.'

What does this mean?

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,stu sans cookie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:55 PM

Seems to me that if the originator is happy to develop the theme that should be OK

Stu

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM

I do not choose to "join" any group of which you are a member.

And actually I did join; why I reverted to guest status is another matter. It surely couldn't have been anything I said.

B#B#

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:54 PM

I don't really wish to continue parrying your peurile comments on the public forum.

If you had the guts to join up - get a cookie - I'd perhaps settle yr quarrel via pm

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:51 PM

Charley ain't a coward ~ he's just exasperated at the arcane turn this discussion has taken.

It's all well and good for the more musically educated among us to enlighten each other about fine points of advanced theory, but I'm sure it seemed to Charley, as it did to me, that these flights of fancy could only be confusing to anyone who needs help with the very simple notion of how to identify the key he's playing in when using a capo at a given fret.

This is folk music we're talking about here, isn't it? On some level, we really need to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)!

I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with learning as much about music as one can, but this thread was begun by asking an extremely simple and basic question.

Happily, it looks like Mr Happy got the answers he needed ~ not just from the forum, but also with the help of some in-person consultation over the weekend ~ and he, apparently, is not at all unhappy that this thread drifted into a much broader and more advanced discussion.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:47 PM

Don't even try, you lame-fingered throwback to a deaf marsupial. If all you can come up with in your half-vast nonvocabulary is the old chicken = coward trick, you don't stand a prayer in any duel of words with a silver-tongued devil like the undersigned. You enlightening me is the joke of the last four centuries combined. I foul myself in the milk of your poor attempt at retribution, you errant Happypithecus.

Gee, isn't this fun?

B#B# but then you probably don't even get that, so why do I bother...

PS. And the dinosaur you rode in on! :)

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

BTW, is your nom de guerre chosen for its aptness, 'Chicken' = cowardly - or are you just perpetually in a fowl mood?

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

'I'm really sorry I posted this?'

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

Enlighten THIS you mental slum-dwelling gobsmacked zithermonkey. I don't give a rodent's rectum if they exist or not. You do not count them when you are trying to place your rusted capo on your warped guitar neck. I'm really sorry I posted this, because my only hope left in this world is that this thread will die. I may post 84 equally inane, insipid, blunted and otherwise wasted threads about penguin songs, just to force this one out the bottom of the list. As they say in the nastier parts of Spain, I spit in the milk of your enlightenment.

Have a nice day!

B#B#

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:36 AM

Stu,

Thanks for yr link - perhaps would be enlightening for C.Charlie too!!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

Examples

Stu

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:07 PM

as do Cb and B#

that's not to mention double sharps and flats....

Stu

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:31 AM

So I now conclude, both from evidence provide on here & also from conversations Fri & Sat night at sesshes with more erudite musicians than I, that E# & Fb do in fact exist, but the criteria for their existence depends on what key you are in

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:26 PM

Ah, the voicings, but what about the Vikings?
I once went to a Norwegian song workshop where we were taught to sing in quarter-tones! How would you capo that? (I know, a tin helmet with 2 horns!)

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

here's what's needed and it's not easy. You have to distinguish between the "voicings" of the chords. These are the pitches that are in the chords. You have to begin to recognize the pitches of the tones in the chord. For example, a major chord is built on the first, third and fifth note of a scale. Major chord=1,3,5. Now, you have to play a major chord and see how these pitches are distributed then you have to identify the 1's,3's and 5's by sound.

Eventually you can learn to hear the various chords by their "voicings" or tone-pitches.

If you are a studious musician, you can learn to identify any chord in this way. Sometimes it takes years but I have taught people to do this to some degree in weeks.

Once you recognize the "voicings" of the chords, then you slap a capo on, the "voicings"
remain the same although the key has changed. When I teach this, I have an excercise
which I call "singing chords". I have the student identify the pitches of the chords by numbers. Then it becomes more available to translate the pitches into actual musical notes. Unfortunately, you gotta' be there.

Next, you have to identify the position of the chords in a progression. That is done numerically using roman numerals. Eventually, you can abstract a chord progression this way from any particular key and apply it to any key.

The combination of identifying the "spelling" of the chord with the "position" of the chord in a progression enables you to use the capo and select keys efficiently.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:10 PM

Am wearing a T-Shirt that reads:

Musicians' Theory of Relativity

E = Fb

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM

Mr Happy--I humbly submit the following for your consideration.

Assume your guitar is tuned to concert and that you are using a standard EADGBE tuning.

If you play in the E position (chords for that key are E,A and B7--with their relative minors at times), then when you capo at the first fret you will now be playing in F. Second fret and you are playing in F# or Gb (F3 and Gb are the same for most practical purposes. Third fret G. Forth fret= G# or Ab. Fifth fret=A. Sixth fret is Bb. Seventh fret is B (or on rare occasions Cb). Seventh fret is C.

In the A position it goes as follows. First fret is A# or Bb. Second fret is B (and so on).

In the G position, first fret is G# or Ab. Second fret is A. Third fret is A# or Bb. Etc on up the neck.

In the D position, capoing at the first fret makes it D# (or Eb). Second fret is E (or on rare occasions Fb). Third fret is F. Fourth fret is F# or Gb. Fifth fret is fret is G, and so on up the neck.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:11 PM

Who was going to just drop this, and should have.

I'm not suggesting playing keyboards in sessions. What I'm saying is that it would be well worth your while to look at a piano keyboard .... Oh, the Hell with it, I've already been there.

Learned helplessness is the condition of thinking of reasons why you can't do something, thereby exerting more energy and wasting more time than if you actually did it, and I'm an idiot to remain stuck in this quagmire. Judas F. Priest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:06 PM

Right on, PoppaGator.

Gents, this is exactly the kind of cross-chatter I was hoping would stop. We're not talking about a guy who is envisioning writing music in F#; we're trying (some of us, anyway) to get a theory-challenged gentleman to learn to count half steps.

Knowledge is knowing things. Wisdom is being able to tell when to use what you know and when not to.

Actually I'm beginning to think some 'catters with time on their hands invented this character just to bug the rest of us. :)

CC

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 05:28 PM

If you write music in the key of - say - F#major, the seventh note of the scale is E#/F natural. This is noted as E# because the reading is easier. There would be both the seventh and eighth notes of the scale sharing the same line if E# were not used, with accidentals all over the place and nothing on the E line or space.

Stu

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

I suppose you could call F E#, and you could call E Fb...

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Neither keyboard intruments not fretted string instruments recognize more than 12 notes/keys per octave.

That is, in the context of any instrument upon which one might affix a capo, there is no reason to even introduce the confusion-inducing concept of the very slight (and essentially theoretical) difference between, say, C# and Db. On a "capo-able" instrument like the guitar, such differences do not exist in any practical sense.

When attempting to instruct someone who has not yet grasped the relatively simple concept of naming the key he/she is playing in when employing a given set of chord shapes along with a capo placed at a given position, muddying the waters with advanced music theory about tempered scales, etc., is counterproductive.

So quit showing off if you can't be helpful!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM

Hey Charlie - chill out, mate!


As regards keyboards, no-one bar me [should that be barmy?] plays 'em in sesshes.

I kno wot u mean about # & bs - just kiddin' - happy days!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM

You miss my point, as usual. I see no alternative but to withdraw my aura.

You ARE the weakest link!

Good-bye

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM

I'm gettin' ratarsed meself just now [6pm-UK time!] -as 'er indoors is away for weakend - yippee!

Or should I say shitfaced?



Don't tink its shitarsed = hmnnn- mebbe later

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM

For the last time, before I go get drunk--and it's only 9:44 AM here, but I may have to....

Please get some keyboard musician friend of yours to show you a C scale on a piano or electric keyboard or whatever. Ask him to play you a C-scale slowly, naming the notes as he goes. Look where the black keys are and where they are not. They are the sharps and flats. There is no black key between E and F; ergo there is no E sharp or F flat. Seven white keys and five black ones in an octave make 12 not 21. I keep harping on this piano thing because it's more visual on the keyboard.

Chicken Charlie
Slowly, I crept .....

PS. To all you folks who know the whole history of the well-tempered scale, you're right in theory, but in practice I hit the same key or finger at the same fret for A# and Bb, so please in this instance it's clear that we've got to move the cookies to a lower shelf.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM

E#/Fb don't exist??

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM

Cb and E# aren't uncommon


Stu

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:56 AM

And the capo circle is winging its way around Scotland now, thanks Nick!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:54 AM

Of course (as we all probably know) A# and Bb, for example, are in fact two different notes, each with a slightly different pitch. They don't really meet in the middle, they were just organised into a compromise note when key and fretboards were invented. But don't let that trouble you. I don't even know the names of half the keys I play in. In DADGAD, for example I've no idea what chord I'm playing in 1st position, in either shape or pitch - put on a capo and I'd never be able to tell you. It's just sounds right for that point in the song.

Ears are always best for music. After all, that's all the audience's is allowed to use.

Tom

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM

Oh yes I've been listening! But you're counting the #s & bs twice!

Have another look

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:36 AM

Dear, Dear Mr. Happy--

Sorry, but you aren't listening. Your last post lists 21 "keys."
There aren't 21 keys, there are 12! My advice about staring at a piano keyboard until the light comes on still holds. Starting at C (which because of theoretical matters you refuse to address is the logical place to start), the notes are:

C
C# which is also Db depending on which key you are in.
D
D# or Eb (one note, two names, as above)
E
F (notice I skipped E#/Fb which do/does not exist, despite your effort to create it two posts back) (PIANO KEYBOARD!!!!)
F#/Gb
G
G#/Ab
A
A#/Bb
B
and we're back to C, an octave above where we started, without B#/Cb, which likewise does not exist in this universe.

Now, here's what you do: Go back and read the sage Bernard's post, which is the second on this thread, the very first answer you got. That was the secret of existence, Grasshopper. Then read Amos' post, where he said the same thing. Then read mine. Then read Bernard's. Then read Amos's. Then read mine. Then read Bernard's. Then read Amos's. Then read mine..... (Re-do from start).

BTW, I've been doing this music thing since about 1954; I think you can trust me. As a former teacher, I hate to be brutal, but IMO you are fighting the problem. Don't memorize results: understand the principle and the results will come like ripe fruit falling off a tree. But, no, after FORTY POSTS (I counted) you're still talking like there's a B-sharp and a C-flat. I FIND THAT PERSONALLY VERY IRRITATING AND NON-COOPERATIVE, AND IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT, YOU WILL GET NO DESSERT TONIGHT !!!!! :)

(Goes off muttering to self under breath.......)

Chicken "Twelve Keys were Good Enough for Mozart" Charlie

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Nick,

Echo plaudit above!

Just printed your Capo Circle & will try out with it at New Brighton,[Wirral/ Merseyside] tonight - Thanks a infinitillion!!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM

So, given the evidence above, chords/keys are like this:

Ab,A,A#,Bb,B,B#,Cb,C,C#,Db,D,D#,Eb,E,E#,Fb,F,F#,Gb,G,G# ??

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Singing Referee
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:18 AM

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:08 AM

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A thing of beauty, exquisite charm and elegant execution soon available in a range of colours be the first one in your local singaround or session to sport this latest fashion statement before every one gets one.

Copyrighted. Hands off.

:)

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM

Capo up to 9th fret? All depends on your guitar. It can sound just fine.

I've just tried it to confirm that, didn't even need retuning.

Of course with some strings and some guitars you would need to tweak the tuning a bit, but that's no problem with a clip on electronic tuner, even in a noisy session.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:28 AM

Looking for something different entirely I discovered that Shubb make a reference table for those wishing to part with £4.99 for one!

shubb capo placement guide for sale at Eagle Music

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Singing Referee
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:19 AM

Amos,

The key of F only has one incidental (black note) Bb. Cb is B.

So

F-2-G-2-A-1-Bb-2-Cb-2-Db-2-Eb-1-F, also known as "three flats"

Should be

F-2-G-2-A-1-Bb-2-C-2-D-2-E-1-F, also known as "one flat"

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

I like Tom Bliss' method of chosing a shape and sliding up! I go to the regular Archie Edwards Blues jam in the DC area, and being a beginner, only know first position chords. Most players go all over the neck and do chords I don't recognize.

Unless somebody announces the key, or there's another beginner opposide me, also playing in first position, I can't figure out the key, most times. Even though I have a small, nylon string guitar,I don't want to experiment too much, for fear of disrupting the sound.

But songs can last 15 - 20 minutes, so I think if I do his shape-and-slide method, I could find the key pretty quickly.

--Linda

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

9th fret is stretching it a bit, but 7th is great - for example D chords (in dropped D) for songs in A. Be careful with Shubb Capo though as it can spring off; best use spring or screw clamp-type capo.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:06 AM

Mr Happy & Fiends will be appearing at West Cheshire Sailing Club Folk Ahoy night on Friday, so I'll give it a go then, cheers

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:02 AM

Nah - it only takes about two seconds. Choose your shape - one you think will give you inversions you like - pluck, and slide. Only one position will be right, you'll find it straight away, and all the other chords will be right too. Try it.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 07:14 AM

The song'd prob be over if I tried that method, using all the shapes!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM

You could always just try listening.

Play the chord shape you want to use on your guitar.

Plucking only the strings that have fingers down, slide it up the frets until it sounds right with the notes the other instruments are playing.

Pop the capo on where the nut should now be and bingo.

No counting, no names, no pack drill.

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

Last night at the sesh, I tried some've the 9th fret shapes - sounded awful!

Guess 'cos there's not enough twanginess left so far up the neck!

Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:38 PM

Open Mike: sound and correct advice, but the vast majority of guitarists I know are happier playing in G shapes, so B flat (much preferred key for singers!) is 3 frets up in G (or shorthand G3)