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BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM I read what my friends are writing and wonder if we have connected at all. I think we have... then I wonder... then I think we have... I wonder if we are friends at all or just people being nice in an uneasy peace for the sake of quiet. I don't hear from some of them and I wonder if it is something I said or did. Was I too much of myself? Did I not hold back something? Am I supposed to?? More and more, I can;t. More and more, there is just all of me, not in broken pieces to dole out anymore. Then I wonder if it is something someone else said or did that I don't even know about, just now, or long ago... I only know what I can see. I see people holding back around me.... I wish they would not. All I know is, I am not witnessing AT anyone as much as I am being what I am and who I am. I have been doing a lot of thinking about that. The difference between evangelizing and proselytizing. You try to tell me but the words are so full of old wounds I can't see how I fit into them, but I keep looking. You've made me think about it, because I care how my friends are, includig how they are about me... so what I have concluded, and what I think about now to see where it will lead, is that what I try to do is share good news, any that I can. Sometimes it comes from a book that I have lived a lot of lessons from. But only when I have lived it-- only what I have learned-- not, I seriously hope, "Here is your problem and here is the one solution and dammit, you go do it or something real bad will happen." That's BAD news. I am not going to be about BAD news. There is too much GOOD news to tell... And I see see GP here struggling to find a voice in the world, and his effort here making people question what they have experienced eith me, and it makes me sad because what I have experienced with you has been wonderful, and I would hope it gets more so, not less. It's true of people writing in this thread and others who watch. You know who you are. And I see friends wanting me to understand what they say on this so much, and me trying, over and over, we go around and around, but I also see a sense that my friends do not see that they too are witnessing all the time-- what you believe comes through, it does, whether you name it or not. Isn;t that how it should be? Should our beliefs not guide us and be reflected from us? Would they be worth having if they didn't? I think all people are teaching what they believe all the time-- that's how people learn from one another. Every time someone says they are holding me in the light, it's a witness. Sometimes a frightening one, to tell you the truth. I don't say so. I go think about it and pray about it and I remember that you are first, my friend. GP, the layers of sea here are many and deep. Many temperatures, many creatures immersd in it. Watch the line... don't sling it around so fast, please. This is a place where people try to hear, much more than in most places. If we shout it only hurts ears. This is a place to come close and speak with gentle truth. People are smart, especially the ones already here. They will take what they need. They know what that is, better than we do. About anything-- music, politics, people, spirituality. Please don't miss seeing it. It's part of what this place can give you. GP, maybe you are not here to give, exactly, maybe this is a place to receive for awhile. Why did I not put this in a PM? Because I would have to spend the whole day copying it and pasting it to too many people. And because people are watching and reading and thinking, about all of this, and we do not know who they are. Your feedback welcome. Also see the old thread on should we care what people think. It dovetails nicely with this one. I'll find the URL for it and add it. Maybe this would all work better if we could recall that every thread here is actually a Part X, Y or Z of one that went before,to someone here if not all. D'ya thgink? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:52 AM Little Hawk: (with apologies for continued thread drift)
My feeling is that the real cowards were the rich and powerful men in Washington who gave the orders and determined the policies from afar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: bbelle Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:31 AM kat and catspaw ... To what you wrote, I concur. This next is my opinion. I have no problem with non-music threads and post to a few of them and have a good time doing so. This, along with the music threads, make us a community. This is exactly the type of thread, however, that will push me to say that non-music threads ARE BS, as in bullshit, and I would rather see only MUSIC threads on the forum. Proselytizing and Witnessing should be done on a private personal level with those who ask for it. I'm tired of opening the forum and having it stuffed in my face. And, GospelPicker, if you think "free speech" is "utter nonsense," your problem is deeper than I imagined. This is not the Holy Mudcat or the Mudcat Temple. It is The Mudcat Cafe, Dedicated to Blues and Folk Music (and bluegrass, by golly). jenny
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GospelPicker (inactive) Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:48 AM Mwa! Mwa! Mwa! (kisses all around! Maybe weesa beeing frenz! GospelPicker @:()>[+]
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: katlaughing Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:47 AM For the evil twin, you sure are being eloquent, tonight, Spaw. I think I will appoint you my official spokescatter from now on! Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:42 AM That's one of those things we all fight with all the time here GP........Its VERY hard to convey all the nuance of everyday speech, the inflection, facial expression....very tough. I'm lucky to have lasted long enough around here so that I am generally taken in about the way I mean to be taken, but its taken a long time and there have been a lot of skirmishes in the meantime that I never meant to occur. Everypalce develops a history and some issues are very sensitive at one point and that sensitivity may carry on or become lessened with time. Around here we've seen both. One day perhaps, we'll figure a way to express even some of our relgious beliefs with the nuance we often still lack because, as you say, its just "black and white" there on the screen. Let's move on, whaddaya think? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GospelPicker (inactive) Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:28 AM I understand the hurting power that words can have when they look so stark on a page or a screen... not much room for interpretation when you only have letters and spaces and no trace of body language, vocal tone or facial expression... Having been a poet and a songwriter for many years now, I should have realized that a lot of my thoughts would have been better expressed in a forum where I could get an immediate response and have some give and take... Kat, Praise, Spaw, all you others... I am sorry. I did not realize how harsh and immovable my stance seemed till I read it in cold type. GospelPicker @:()>[+]
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: katlaughing Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:22 AM That's what I meant, Spaw, thank you for making it clearer. GP, you might want to do a little homework and read some of the older threads with "healing" in the title; as a relative newcomer it might help you to understand what we are talking about. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:15 AM First...the comment you refer to was an OBVIOUS troll and needed no response. None. Has that posteer ever argued with you since the first post? Nope. You GP are entitled to whatever beliefs you wish to have. Kat is entitled to the same. Please be aware that we have been through this on several occasions and though you may not feel you are witnessing, it comes across that way. We had a long and nasty argument over something known as healing threads here and as a reult it was generally agreed to keep more personal things to PM's and e-mails and not pump whatever belief we have in the forum. We have many differing beliefs and we need to respect all and that means that none of us are free even accidentally trod on another. Let's leave it alone and agree that we all may disagree and that we are all serious in our beliefs and often easily offended. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:07 AM Steve. Please read what I wrote to you above. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GospelPicker (inactive) Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:04 AM WOW... you read my mind... HOW did you guess I was such a narrow-minded A**hole as to assume that we are all the same religion or of the same beliefs? I NEVER make that assumption... Secondly, what I said had nothing to do with witnessing... I was just expressing my anger and sadness at the "new tolerance"... it's perfectly OK to have a lousy attitude, but when someone mentions the word, "GOD", right away, it's, "don't gimme nunna dat Jeesis stuff... I doan wanna hear no kynna Bible-thumpin!" If anyone has things "forced on them" it is the people who want to share their faith but get BLASTED for "witnessing"... You want to live your life so narrow-mindedly that you would never consider someone else's faith as possibly the one you have been searching for? I sure wouldn't if I was searching... That is what the subject of this thread was and is doing... The idea that there is no option other than "my God" is an insult... not because I'm saying that there is no other option (You didnt ask that); I am insulted, quite frankly, because I seem to being made out to be some sort of wannabe guru alternately condemning you and whispering, "joooiiinnn uuusss! JOIN US!"... nothing is further from true... You have your beliefs; I respect them completely. Just don't jump up my ass when I attempt to defend my beliefs... I have as much right to be indignant about his "pie" comment as anyone would... GP
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: katlaughing Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:33 AM GP, I have no argument with your caring etc. I DO have a problem with people making assumptions, i.e. that we are all Christian, that we DON'T have an alternative to your god, or that we all want to hear continuous *witnessing* in the threads. There are other ways to word such things, which many Mudcatters have done, both Christian and non, which respect our differences. This has happened before on the Mudcat and I am sure it will balance itself out. Just please do not assume we are all coming from the same religious background as yourself. And, many of us have investigated the options, as you say, for most of our lives, and are quite comfortable with what and who we are. Thank you, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: flattop Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:28 AM Maybe it's a Canadian thing but pie occasionally has positive connotations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GospelPicker (inactive) Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:01 AM McGrath, I applaud you... you are absolutely right in your assessment of my post... Kat, no one is forcing you to do anything... I was simply stating that there are people who have had REAL experiences... be they religious, emotional, WHATEVER... then someone comes along and, without a whiff of fact to back up their statements, starts name-calling (pie-in-the-sky). I am only trying to say that there is NO CALL for people to go demeaning others' beliefs in the name of apathy; What I mean is that just because one can't be bothered to investigate all the options open to them in life, that doesn't give them the right to push their sorry "who cares" attitude on others... In closing, I CARE... always will. anyone who claims that something is wrong had better have an alternative when the need arises. GospelPicker @:()>[+]
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: Zebedee Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:48 PM The only 'damn' that I give here is a simple thank you. I'm happy to go out of my way (and time) to do web searches for others who don't know how to, or can't be bothered. If the ratio of my time spent, to the number of 'thank you's gets too small, I'll give up. Zeb |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: hesperis Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:32 PM When I was really depressed, I would constantly think "nobody cares!" over and over again. I would cry for hours with this thought going through my mind, torturing me. But it was me who had stopped caring for myself. Yes, I was in a bad situation, but I withdrew affection and caring from myself too. When I had learned, even through much pain, to care for myself again, I found an amazing number of people who now care about me too. If you are being oppressed by impersonal institutions, refuse to let them just treat you as if you're just a number. If you are being oppressed by people, keep caring about yourself. It is worth it. ~*sirepseh*~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM To address the Custer etc thread-drift: Being brave doesn't mean you aren't doing wicked things; people who do wickwed things aren't necessarily cowards.
It's just that we tend to throw the word coward at people who do something horrible, because it's one of the most powwerful insults we can think of when directed against an enemy. So you get absurd things like Clinton the other day denouncing the suicide bombers in Yemen as "cowards" - which is the one thing you can't reasonably say about a suicide bomber. The very same Nazis who carried out appalling atrocities were often insanely brave themselves. The same goes for many of the US Cavalry who did the same kind of things as the Nazis back in the 19th century. And scumbags seems a reasonable, if restrained way of referring tomthem
But I took it that GospelPicker was using this as an example of how, when you say something true - (eg that the US Cavalry were involved in genocide) - you have to be ready for it to have consequences in real life, (because in the instance given they might have decendents with similar proclivities.) And in the same way, if you come to a belief in a principle, or a committment to a person (in this instance, God), that has real consequences, and isn't just a theoretical idea to be toyed with and put away.
Anyway, that's how I understood it. But I'm not too clear where the thread is headed.
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM Awe gee, here I go. I will try to help, although I will probably make this worse. OK. I'll say it like this. Under any circumstances, it takes a lot of mutual understanding and respect to discuss what is in this thread, from any angle of anyone's post. Some of the people who have not been around Mudcat very long may not YET have built up that understanding to a point where the things they are eager to say clearly can be heard clearly or at all. And some of the people who have been around the Mudcat for a long time have seen many such discussions go swirling right down the tubes, and a lot of pain has been left behind on the surface, and they may not be ready to go there again. I see people in this thread who I know a little and love a lot, trying to speak and hear clearly, but it falls short without the foundation of friendship. There is a line where what can be handled, and what can't now be handled, divide. The line moves all the time, and is never straight either, it wiggles. It seems to me, after a fair amount of experience and effort, that you need to keep your eye on that line and know where you are in relation to it. And to let other people be wherever they are, in relation to it, with respect. I do not mean the line between heaven and hell, right or wrong, truth or lie, or between people of different values or whatever difference they may have. I mean simply the line between what is actually possible at any given point in time. That line does not behave well when pushed. It moves, all right, but like a downed live power line whipping in the wind. And it does much harm until it is shut off or tied down. That line has been very, very good to me, and this community has been very, very open to me and with me. I treat is as carefully as I know how to do it without being someone other than my true self. And despite that I have made a lot of mistakes with that line, and others have too. But if this is going to be a good place for all, I think that you have to think about how to give that line time to find its own place. We all speak and hear more clearly when that is allowed. Another way to say it borrows from shipboard realities. Don't catch your leg in the line attached to the anchor. Anchors tend to go over the side. That is what they are made for. The line looks harmless now all coiled on the deck. But it will come to life like nobody's bidness, faster than you can say Whale Oil Beef Hooked! And if you've tangled someone else in it with you, well, it's wet down there. ~Susan $0.02 |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:33 PM Regarding the US Cavalry, and all that... To say that they were cowards is a bit misleading, depending on which particular men you are referring to, and which particular incident. It was a mixed picture. Some were cowards, many were not. I am hugely pro-Indian in this whole matter, yet I would not necessarily dismiss Custer's men as cowards. On the contrary, they fought bravely, given the fact that they had been led into an untenable position by an overly reckless and ambitious commander (Custer). Custer himself was exceedingly brave under all circumstances, and was much admired as a warrior chief by the Cheyenne, the Lakota and the other peoples whom he fought against. On the other hand, he lied to them and treated them wrongfully on a number of occasions, and they did not forgive him for his dishonesty. His courage was never in question, but his moral uprightness was, from a Native point of view. The white attackers at Sand Creek and at the Washita might well be termed cowards in a general sense, because they slaughtered women and children and old people, and they raped women. Yet some of them were surely brave men. Sometimes, however, angry Indian warriors did those things too...I am sorry to say. As Geronimo said: "Bad things happen in war." Then and now. My feeling is that the real cowards were the rich and powerful men in Washington who gave the orders and determined the policies from afar. They cynically signed treaties with people like Red Cloud, while quietly planning when they could make their next move to rob the Native people of their land. They broke virtually every treaty they ever signed. They did it all for land, money, and power. They faced no danger, other than losing an election. So if you want to name cowards, name not the soldiers who usually fought bravely...but the politicians who sent them to do their dirty work. It's still like that today. - Little Hawk (who saw the hand of greed and murder come down upon free Indian land and has not forgotten). |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: mousethief Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM The existence of God cannot be proven with 100% certainty, nor can the opposite hypothesis. I have a feeling that when this ceases to be the case, the world will be ending. -C.S. Lewis (rough paraphrase from memory)
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: paddymac Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:16 PM Well I'll be damned, er, durned. Seems like a bit of vinegar in amongst all the honey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:00 PM just as a history book editor would have to answer to Custer's descendents if he printed what scumbags those Army cowards were Boy, bad choice of an example: In light of what was done at the Washita and elsewhere, those Army cowards were- uh- scumbags! the "free speech" nonsense Nonsense?? Who's the real nazi here, I wonder? If these thoughts are an example of your "religion" and your "god", PLEASE keep them to yourself- they're both in very poor taste. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: katlaughing Date: 16 Oct 00 - 04:36 PM And I prefer not to have another's religion forced upon me. Thank you, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GUEST,khandu Date: 16 Oct 00 - 04:27 PM Amen, my brother, Amen! There is security in familiarity. Some people I have known prefer their misery over change because change requires a degree of risk. However, the greater risk lies in refusing to change. I read, but did not reply to the "Who gives a d***" thread, due to the attitude of the author. One can acknowlege one's misery in a truly seeking manner, and benefit from the input of others. Or one can just try to put his misery on any who would listen to him, and benefit no one. I prefer not to have another's misery forced upon me. khandu |
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Subject: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D*** From: GospelPicker (inactive) Date: 16 Oct 00 - 02:25 PM Here we go again... People with NO practical evidence to back up their rantings, and yet they spout off at the mouth about thibgs they are afraid of... Rich's comment about "pie in the sky theology" is pure hogwash... (it's in the "Who gives a D*** thread) It just proves a theory I've had for a long time... Truth requires the assumption of great responsibility... just as a history book editor would have to answer to Custer's descendents if he printed what scumbags those Army cowards were, a person who has a REAL encounter with GOD is really required to acknowledge His presence and power and stop living as though God was not God... The Bible says, "Much is expected of the man to whom much is given." I think that applies to the "free speech" nonsense we have had to endure from the NeoNazis and the pornographers; it alos applies to people making blanket assumptions about whether Praise, Khandu and myself are starry-eyed followers of "pie in the sky"... 'Nuff said. GospelPicker @*^)[+] (looking starry-eyed)
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