BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Risky Business
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:21 AM

I appreciate the responses so far. The issue is on the front page of the Boston Globe today.

We've veered a bit from what I wanted to find out: I'd conclude by what I'm reading that the vast majority of folks think that Kerry should not be refused participation in Catholic communion, nor should he shirk it because of his beliefs.

I still don't know why the Catholic church got involved on the issue and what it's biblical justification is (that life begins at conception).

I still don't know why Southern Baptists have a similar view, but other Christian faiths, such as Lutheran, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Unitarian, Episcopal, justify a different belief.

Even though this is a BS thread, there is at least one musical tie-in: Monty Python's song "Every Sperm is Sacred".

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Strick
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:44 AM

GUEST, I think this is what set of this conversation this time:

Vatican Cracks Down on Liturgical Abuses

Down a ways you'll find this:

"It said anyone conscious of being in grave sin shouldn't receive Communion without going to confession - a regulation that prompted questions about whether priests should deny Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry Communion because of his support for abortion rights."

How anyone knows what John Kerry confesses to is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:06 AM

"The" Catholic church has not come out and said it will no longer give communion to politicians who are pro-choice. One Catholic cardinal, obviously a right wing cardinal, decided to inject his own brand of religious politics into the American presidential campaign. That is all this is about.

The Catholic church gives communion to all Catholics, good and bad. The cardinal shooting off his mouth is obviously an idiot, and goes against everything the church stands for, IMO. If priests stopped giving communion to Catholics who don't adhere to every Catholic teaching, they wouldn't have much business on Sundays.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 01:36 AM

High risk, high honor.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Strick
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:03 AM

This JFK makes a lot of comparisons between himself and the other one. I wouldn't be surprised if he voluteered for Riverine duty to get on such a boat, Amos. I wouldn't say that was a bad thing, though he might want to be careful not to take the parallels too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:47 PM

Sorry -- I suppose they were both fast, armed boats.

And "Should a Catholic be President" is a non-issue for the reasons I already satted, IMNSHO.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:46 PM

Yes. The abortion question should not be a political one, but it has become one. He should be allowed to take communion, I think, if he wishes to have it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Strick
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:43 PM

"armored boats"

Plywood boats, Amos, they were plywood.

How is this question tied to whether a Catholic should be president?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:40 PM

The President is sworn, above all else to defend the Constitution; and that includes implicitly if no explciitly keeping all churches seperate from state affairs. That is the oath of office as presently interpreted; he wouldn't be running if he was unwilling to take it. We worked through our misgivings over this issue with the Catholic Church in 1960, remember? A Senator from Massachusetts who had a record commanding small armored boats running for (and gaining) the Presidency despite his restricitve faith? Except they shot him....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Strick
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:31 PM

"Should a Jewish president forbid pork? It probably wouldn't work, but he would be virtuous for trying. No?"

Whether he should forbid it for others is not the question. What seems to be the question is, if he himself eats pork, could he really be considered an observant Orthodox Jew?

Not trying to offend anyone, but let's be sure we understand what we're talking about here. I don't see the Church asking Kerry to force anyone outside the Church to do anything or violate the laws of the land, only be consistent for himself with what their church leader defines as a core value.

I will also repeat that I can't consider this a major political issue. It's between him and his church.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

Sometimes it boggles the mind how anti-Catholic the Catholic cardinals are, and how readily everyone accepts this argument, while completely ignoring women's views.

I mean, considering this is a subject that effects women, not men, and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 09:31 PM

If I believe Catholicism is the true religion, should I (as president) attempt to deny citizenship to non-Catholics? it would be for the good of their souls; I'd just be trying to help. Anything wrong with that?

Should a Jewish president forbid pork? It probably wouldn't work, but he would be virtuous for trying. No?

What Kennedy was saying is that he wouldn't' inflict his religious beliefs on the nation.

Ethical beliefs, unlike religious beliefs, are pretty much common to all religions and cultures; basically, don't murder, steal, or commit incest. You can argue about definitions, of course - it's often ok to kill or steal from someone outside the tribe - but those are the basic human laws.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Strick
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:26 PM

"I fully intend to practice my religion as separate from what I do with respect to my public life."

With respect, as you seem to mean it, that is to not practice your religion at all. It's one thing to recognize your public duties may conflict with your faith and do your duty. It's another thing to adopt a practice inconsistent with your belief and push it as a public duty.

"Can George W. Bush say the same? I don't think so."

Probably right, Don. But that's a positive statement for most of us.

Regardless, Kerry's issue with the Church shouldn't be an issue unless you feel strongly as a Catholic in which case you probably weren't going to vote for Kerry anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:26 PM

My dad was a "proud member of the working class" and a died in the wool, democrat. He did not vote for Kennedy because he thought a Catholic would be taking orders from the Pope. He also had a grade eight education but that was then and this is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM

These questions should be left between Kerry and his priest.

I don't practice a religion, and am an ardent opponent of the often homogeneous overarching influence of most organized religions. I resent (am insulted by!) religion being used as the justification for war, for acts of violence, and for laws that restrict others' rights. At the same time, I also resent the speculation about what goes on between a person and their church. To say that I don't practice a religion is NOT the same as saying I have no thoughts or practices of spirituality. I can think of no context in which I should have to explain, describe, or defend my personal spiritual believes or practices. On that basis, I have to give the same courtesy to any of the candidates. Now if Dubya is so stupid as to tell Woodward and the world that he consulted his god and decided to go to war because of that, then that god needs to be examined.

And I wonder what the conversation is like around the extended Bush family dinner table this week:

George H. W. Bush: "I heard your speech on tv this week. The one about Iraq."

George Dubya: "Yeah, I put the shame on them, how could they ask me to abandon the Iraqi people before everything is up and that nation is restored."

George H. W. Bush: "Er, Yes. You said 'this time we're not going to cut and run. . .'"

George Dubya: "Ooops, Dad. Forgot that was you. . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:21 PM

That's pretty much what John Kennedy said, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:18 PM

Significant is that Kerry has said, "I fully intend to practice my religion as separate from what I do with respect to my public life." Can George W. Bush say the same? I don't think so.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:17 PM

'Tain't ex cathedra, so it ain't official infallible Church doctrine. It's just the Curia trying to regain some of the authority it lost to Vatican II. The 71 page document refers to other practices as well -- and it originally excluded liturgical dancing until someone wised up and realized that the Pope had enjoyed liturgical dancing during a trip to Africa.

I wouldn't worry about it. The Catholics in the US, by and large, aren't going to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Strick
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:17 PM

Non-issue is right, it shouldn't affect the politics. Beyond that, I'm not qualified to instruct another church on their litergy. He's welcome over at our place though, and always has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:10 PM

Religious practices should not be an issue in a political campaign, with the possible exception of when that religion's ritual includes human sacrifice. However, saying that I fully expect an ungodly portion of the electorate will be suckered into this non-issue.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:10 PM

Story here. As a non-Catholic, I really can't comment on the theology of it. I guess it would be between him and his priest.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Megan L
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:07 PM

no theologian but Jesus said do this in rememberance of me, he did not say do this only if ( supply your on list of prohibitions)

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:02 PM

Some perspective:—

Catholic author Morris West (The Shoes of the Fisherman, Summer of the Red Wolf, and many other excellent novels, not all of a religious nature), wrote in his spiritual memoir, A View from the Ridge about his religious upbringing and his eventual disenchantment with the church, and asks such questions as "How can individual values coexist with inflexible institutions?" and "Why are church hierarchies unlike Jesus?" Someone once asked him about when he left the church. He responded, "I didn't leave the church. The church left me."   

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM

You're asking whether Kerry should be excommunicated. (That's what the word means.) I don't know. Does the Catholic church ever excommmunicate anyone nowadays? Have they ever excommunicated anyone over the abortion issue? Who exactly has the authority to excommunicate people? (Bishops, I assume.) If one bishop, say, decides to excommunicate somebody, does the excommunication apply everywhere, or can the person still take communion in a different diocese?

Subject: BS: Should Kerry Take Communion?
From: Risky Business
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

I've been hanging out in Massachusetts, where Sen. Kerry got his political start. People here have been mentioning the situation wherein Kerry, a Catholic, might be denied communion in a Catholic Church due to his pro-choice stance.

I am interested in soliciting opinions from people and not in arguing, since this is an issue where I think people will be firmly entrenched, so what I'm after is:

1) Should Catholic Priests offer Sen. Kerry communion or not?

2) Should Sen. Kerry himself take communion in Church?

Why does the Catholic Church define personhood as emanating fromt the moment of conception? Is this the same reason as the Baptist Church, which holds a similar opinion?