BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

OK Jim, so I was right and you are up for a fight, your "debating" is influenced by perceived views that you disapprove of....personal dislike.

Thanks for saving me the time and effort of responding to you in the future.
If I had hatred for any member of this forum I certainly would not be looking for responses from them.....There are about half a dozen members who have shown aggression to me, they no longer figure in any discussions I may have here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 12:30 PM

Rag,
Where does it say the referendum is legally binding?

Where have I said the referendum is legally binding?

Steve, in these posts you describe the vote itself as irrevocable.
We now know that it can be revoked by Parliament.
You dishonestly claimed to know that all along.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitied to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country.

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

Well that response doesn't surprise me in the least, Teribus. But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM

We have allowed less than 38% of the electorate to make a irrevocable decision based on fear and ignorance

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 09:18 AM

"I don't respond if I either don't think the post is sincere,"
I've not long posted four links which directly contradict your persistent claims of the negative effects of immigration - they are neither "insincere nor abusive" - they are the views of experts in the field - along with collected data - you have not responded to any and no doubt you will repeat your spurious claims a later date.
This is common and long-standing practice with you and your accusation of "wiggling" echoes somewhat hollowly when your own behaviour is placed next to Steve's
"why don't you calm down and start behaving like one old friend"
Sorry ake - don't have many extremist right wing friends - can't think of one (though I do have a number of homosxuals and a few immgrants I count as friends).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 08:54 AM

Jim, I often respond to points made by other members, I don't respond if I either don't think the post is sincere, or if the post is abusive.   Sometimes the posts are not worthy of response, if they are simply parroting the same old hackneyed ideology.

On a personal note, you give the impression of always being up for a fight, why don't you calm down and start behaving like one old friend who disagrees with another? Perhaps that would encourage more responses?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 08:36 AM

Ha Ha, that is exactly what they said about Mr Corbyn and the membership of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 06:56 AM

Well I hear this morning that May is contemplating trying to force Article 50 through with a "simple vote," bypassing legislation. I sincerely hope that MPs don't fall for that one. If anything needs a proper debate, this does. The other parties should be saying, a proper debate or we'll vote against Article 50. Bloody Tories don't seem to like a good dose of parliamentary democracy up 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 05:32 AM

http://www.englishconstitutiongroup.org/damning-letter-from-lord-kilmuir-the-lord-chancellor-to-edward-heath-2/

Have we all been betrayed? Do we actually need Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 05:19 AM

"I think Mr Shaw is wriggling like a fish on a hook Keith, "
A bit rich from# someone who never ever responds put to him - both of you make a point of not doing so (or, in Keith's case, accusing the poster of "made up shit" - a favourite phrase of his)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 03:02 AM

Thank you for your, no doubt well-meant, advice Raedwulf.

I'm fairly sure it will come as little or no surprise when I tell you to Foxtrot Oscar and mind your own business.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 09:26 PM

But the fact is that you can't educate pork. We had a pair of Donald Russell pork chops for tea tonight and they wouldn't listen to a word I said. The potential problem comes with whether you're equating people on the forum with unspecified cuts of pork. One of my early girlfriends called me, affectionately, "sausage" all the time and I didn't mind at all. And when I told Mrs Steve that she was having pork belly on Monday night, her eyes fair lit up... Dunno really. It's not such a bad expression...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 09:09 PM

But "educating pork"? That's vile.

But demonstrably more successful than attempting to educate The Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: bobad
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:58 PM

Thus spake Porky.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:22 PM

BWM - please don't use this phrase again "There's no joy in trying to educate pork." I absolutely tore into Muppet, sorry, Musket, sorry self-proclaimed Dr Ian Mather for using it a couple of years back. And you know what? Several catters criticised ME for MY language without the slightest comment on his remark. Which left me... surprised, let's say. They couldn't see what was wrong with the phrase whilst bitching at me for using some crude language?


I think Keith is both stupid & ignorant. Not least because he gives a very good impression of being narrow-minded, alongside never, ever, ever, ever, ever admitting he's in the wrong. But "educating pork"? That's vile. It supercilious, pretentious & condescending. If he argues like an idiot, call him an idiot. But don't stoop to "educating pork".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:22 PM

Neither Liz Truss nor Theresa May will condemn the newspapers that slagged off the judges. It took both of them ages even to "support" the judiciary at all. Bloody disgraceful. Running scared of alienating the right-wing sewer press. No guts, no principles, no honesty. Well I did try to warn people against voting Tory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 05:27 PM

Keith, Akenaton - read THIS, in particular the second and third sentences. The English used is simple enough for even you to understand.

When you've read it, shut up and go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 01:08 PM

The referendum has to adopt the same criteria as any General Election - his has to serve the interests of the entire population, not the first-past-the-post winners, those who voted for, those who voted against and those who didn't vote.
It effects us all so how it is brought about about should be decided by all - or their elected representatives.
That is what the Law Courts decided and that's what makes sense.
Let's see what happens with the appeal - so far we have only had the outraged squeals of the winners.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 12:57 PM

And the other thing is, none of those promises included anything about an end to free movement or to membership of the single market. Neither of those are necessarily implied in leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 09:41 AM

The government was entitled to promise that it would be bound by the advisory result. What it could not promise is that it would be legally bound. Well, we know what politicians' promises amount to, but in this instance they are actually, so far at least, honouring their promise to be bound. They don't have to honour it and there's still a small chance that they will have to renege. Cameron was not entitled to promise that article 50 would be invoked immediately in the event of a leave vote. Had he for one second thought that he might have to deliver on that promise, he would never have made it. Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 09:29 AM

Calm down.

It's very simple. It was never going to be a legally binding referendum. The government put out promises about it being binding which were legally meaningless. The formal decision to comply with the advice given by the public lies with parliament. However it is virtually certain that this decision will be to comply.

The actual referendum only dealt with membership of the EU, not with any other issues, such as whether free movement will be preserved. However it is likely that MPs will in fact vote to deprive us of this right, so there is no real need for advocates of removing free movement to get in a tizzy. It

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:45 AM

I think Mr Shaw is wriggling like a fish on a hook Keith, as you have shown he stated that the vote was irrevocable, not the decision when to press the button. :0)

Most people thought that the vote was important....otherwise why bother with a referendum at all? Why not leave it to corrupt and self serving MP's to carve the matter up to their satisfaction.

The crux of the matter is "free movement", that must be abandoned above all else. It is an exploitative "economic" policy which is wrong on all levels, touted by snake oil salesman Blair as a remedy for all of our economic ills......need I say more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:14 AM

"Once buttons have been pushed," Keith. The button is Article 50. No going back once that has been kick-started, despite what Teribus sez. Irrevocable. As far as I can see from here, that is a rock-solid cert. This is not about not doing it. It's about doing it properly. Rule of law, Keith. In fact, to all intents and purposes, the "decision of the people" (all 37% of them) was always intended to be irrevocable. I can't see that anything that's happened so far has changed that, certainly not the court judgement, which had nothing to do with whether brexit happens or not. The referendum was advisory but the government was, and still is, determined to be driven by it. There is, sadly, no political groundswell for overturning it. In effect, as soon as the result was known, the decision was irrevocable. Nothing to do with "advisory" or not, everything to do with politics. The government simply decided, ahead of the vote, to take the advice, whatever it was. Sorry you felt you had to waste all that time nitpicking. Keeps you off the streets, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:08 AM

I'll ask again.


Where does it say the referendum is legally binding?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:50 AM

Rag,
See my post 05 Nov 16 - 05:49 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:47 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitied to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country.

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

Well that response doesn't surprise me in the least, Teribus. But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM

We have allowed less than 38% of the electorate to make a irrevocable decision based on fear and ignorance

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:44 AM

Where is your written proof professor that "we were promised a binding referendum"

Not your interpretation of what was written but show us what was actually written.

Like almost everyone else on this thread I understood the referendum to be merely advisory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

An in vote could easily have been overturned by another referendum (and it's a good bet that you'd have been calling for one). The out vote, once buttons have been pushed, is irrevocable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:40 AM

McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:38 PM

But of course that means not taking the irrevocable gamble of voting for out this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM

Steve, my only claim in the OP was that we were promised a binding referendum.
For that I was vilified, insulted and abused but we were, by the government and in a document delivered at tax payers expense to every home in the country.

As ever, I was right and you were wrong.

In this post Steve, you show that you believed the referendum to be binding, so when did you learn the truth?

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:22 AM

What rubbish. You want the whole population to make an irrevocable decision on an extremely complex matter that will affect the country for many decades (including - especially including - people who are too young to vote). That was a bad choice to begin with, all the worse because that choice was made by Cameron for all the wrong reasons. The very least that should have happened was a huge education programme. Well pigs might fly. With politicians on two opposing sides that was simply never going to happen. The country was peddled lies from both sides and the thresholds for turnout and voting outcome were set way too low. Just over one third of those eligible to vote are dragging us out of the EU. Unconscionable. Indefensible. And lopsided, in that one choice put before the public was irrevocable whereas the other was reversible

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:02 AM

DtG.
   well said!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 05:53 AM

As far as I can see the issues have been addressed clearly and concisely. The facts have been presented and because they do not concur with certain preconceptions some members are beginning to cry 'foul' even where no foul has been committed. I will ignore this diversionary tactic and I urge others to see it for what it is. I will follow BWMs lead and exit from the thread with a final summary

1. The fact remains that the referendum was never legally binding.
2. The judges have ruled, quite correctly, that parliamentary procedure must be followed.
3. Many promises were made by politicians that have now been broken. The only surprise there is that some people seem shocked by this.

Whether parliament will override the result of the referendum is yet to be seen but there is no conspiracy by 'The elite' to keep us in the EU. Simply laws that have been enshrined for hundreds of years that cannot and should not be broken.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 05:25 AM

An interesting summary of referendums in the UK and their legal status, especially pre legislative and post legislative referendums.

One is left with the feeling that a) the result would be ignored.
b) the vote would overwhelmingly be to remain. The fact that the people voted to leave is the only explanation for camoron scuttling off into the wilderness. This is because a leave vote would have to be ratified by Parliament, and there is no way this could be guaranteed.
The entire exercise was a sham, but the government bluff was called when the majority voted for exit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

(It is dangerous to use wikipedia as a source, but in this case I believe it is a clear summary)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:39 AM

And that's my final contribution to this thread. There's no joy in trying to educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:34 AM

That was for Ake. Iains comment isn't even worthy of a response.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:32 AM

The issues have been addressed, and the facts laid out. It's your mate who's incapable of understanding the structure of UK Democracy, and the European Union Referendum Act, 2015.

Address your sarcasm to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:31 AM

I wonder which bigot will spit out their dummy and hurl their toys out of the pram next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:05 AM

Ah! the mob is re-forming.......same tactics same people....same bullshit.

Never mind the old pals in the pub act, grow up and address the issues. Try to listen occasionally...and maybe learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:57 PM

💯!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:56 PM

Are you listening, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:32 PM

I haven't. That road leads to madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:23 PM

Mates.. draw back...

you've let Keith drag you into his game on his terms of combat....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:20 PM

Just poor ol' Keith in this big, wide world didn't know it.

And that's only the tip of the cornucopia of things The Professor doesn't know - even after he's been repeatedly told.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 08:29 PM

Hey, Keith, get a load of this. From the Daily Mail, two weeks before the referendum.

MPs will block Brexit even if we vote to leave the EU in the referendum, according to David Cameron's father-in-law.

Lord Astor said he did not believe there would be a majority in the House of Commons to repeal the legislation that underpins our membership of the bloc.

The bizarre scenario is possible because the national ballot is only advisory - and most politicians support staying inside the EU.

There has already been speculation that MPs could prevent us quitting the European single market, as Brexit campaigners have suggested should happen if there is an Out vote on June 23.

Lord Astor - a Tory peer and Samantha Cameron's stepfather - made the prediction as he set out his support for keeping ties with Brussels, despite delivering a devastating critique of the way it functions.

From the DAILY BLOODY MAIL, Keith. Samcam's dad, Keith! Only advisory! Well whaddya know. The Mail knew it, Samcam's dad knew it (therefore Cameron knew it), we all knew it. Just poor ol' Keith in this big, wide world didn't know it. You should get out more, Keith! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:44 PM

I am suspicious of their reasoning

Or lack thereof....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:37 PM

I knew it was non binding because many sources told me it was so. I then read the legislation that was open, free and available to everyone and confirmed it was an advisory referendum only. I have known from day 1 that it was so and I am surprised that anyone thought otherwise. If any MPs thought it was legally binding then they are fools. I suspect that, like many other politicians, they are not fools but are lying. Although that is merely my opinion but born out of experience.

I am not talking about campaign slogans when I speak of promises. I am talking about what politicians said. Or lied about. They said they would stop immigration. They said they would spend our EU contribution on the NHS. They said they would abide by the results of the referendum. Which of these lies anyone believes is their own business. From my point of view, I believe none.

If anyone believes one and not the others, I am suspicious of their reasoning.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:26 PM

Javid was absolutely all over the place in Question Time. Very unprofessional. Totally unprepared for the inevitable questions of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:17 PM

Ok, I have now listened to the first part of question time again. The first speaker, Sajid Javid, immediately changed the question from whether it was legally binding to whether it was morally binding, and the second didn't say anything about the legal side but that because of the result most mp would vote in accordance with the result. Javid also said that when MPs voted for it most thought it was binding but left vague whether he meant legally or morally.

Which leaves us in the same position, I think. MPs may consider themselves bound for reasons of personal morality and conviction. That is quite a different thing to whether they are bound in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:54 PM

You have had every conceivable fact laid out for you already in this thread. We've been very patient with you. When you get someone like you who claims that UKIP might have won the last election, well I do wonder what planet you're on. Fantasy, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:54 PM

Winning the EU Election when most people didn't vote was no guide for what could happen in a General Election.

All that is interesting, Keith, but it didn't happen. It wasn't a binding referendum, no matter what any MPs or journalists might have said.

However, no need to worry. MPs who were against Brexit will of course vote for it, especially where their constituencies voted for it. They'll present that as being because it's the democratic thing to do, but in reality it's because they think voting for what they believe would put their re-election in danger.

And I suspect that would also mean they'll vote to take away our right to freedom of movement, even though that wasn't in the referendum, because they'll assume that the Brexiters would want that.

So all in all I suspect this will all end up as a storm in a teacup.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:48 PM

Steve,
Fantasy. Entertaining fantasy.

No Steve. Facts that you can not challenge.

Prove me wrong by identifying any falsehood in my posts.
Good luck with that Steve.
You might have to stick to lying personal attacks on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:43 PM

I haven't rewatched Question Time and I admit I wasn't giving it my full attention but while I remember the statement that the vote for the referendum bill was 6:1 in favour of the bill, I don't recall them mentioned they believed it was binding. I may have missed it.

You did.
I will transcribe their statements if you like, but it is all available on BBC iPlayer.
It is the first question, and the first two respondents.