BS: Anyone defend US gun law?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:19 PM

"Even my Amish close friends have an arsenal of firearms."

You've made a fair number of pretty scary statements in these 'gun-nutcase vs. normal people" threads, but that's one of the scariest.

I'm so glad I live in a country where we aren't all living in fear the whole time.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM

Dan.. at one point you said your weapons are "in a safe"... then just above you say: "If an attack is done on anyone when I am around. I shoot back .."

Surely you don't run home to a safe when there 'might' be trouble? Do you carry a weapon when you leave the house...in that area where you also seem to say there is little gun violence?

In any home where access to a gun is touted as important to home security, that gun must be readily available and loaded to be of any use... and the user must be sure of the reality of a threat...etc.
There was just a trial of a man who shot a 19 year old woman on his porch because "he was scared" at her loud knocking.
It just doesn't add up that easy access to a gun does much good in most situations. Even in that shooting of the Congresswoman in Arizona, a young man with a 'legal' gun almost fired at the wrong person in the chaos.

I can just imagine having nervous old ladies being expected to learn gun-oriented 'self-defense'.

The NRA's slogan that "the solution to bad people with guns is good people with guns" is nothing but hyperbole designed to protect financial interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:39 PM

Even my Amish close friends have an arsenal of firearms. This is a big deer hunting area. I don't hunt anymore. I just like to watch them now. My backyard is full of deer and turkeys

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:38 PM

Here in the UK, No-one ever even considers the possibility of being shot at, it doesn't happen because no-one has guns - and therefore no-one needs them. And we don't need geriatric ex-forces and ex-cops talking tough about what they'd do 'If', because 'If' simply doesn't happen.

In 67 years, I've never seen a firearm except in the possession of the armed forces, police firearms-unit officers, farmers and individuals involved in farming and sport-shooting. And that is a great comfort.

You're brainwashed. So brainwashed you don't even know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:28 PM

I have a different take. Me I am highly trained. I like to level the playing field. If an attack is done on anyone when I am around. I shoot back and I would bet I am a far better shot. Hopefully that will never be necessary. Cop's are not everywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

Ebbie what is the status in your state of alaska where there are no restrictions at all? I don't know but I would be interested

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:15 PM

Your could be right Ebbie. I grew up in Central pa in the mountains. Back home we still have no gun violence. But in philly that does restrict them I think that is what makes your stats off. Philly is gang violence and thugs with illegal guns

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

Ebbie's post above was a while ago now Olddude.

In the words of John Lennon, shot by a man with a gun in The USA...

"A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

"Could not be more wrong most area's that have the most guns... Like in PA where I was from.. Gun violence is non existent." olddude 20 August 3:20

Dan, that statement didn't ring true to me so I looked it up. Here is what I found:

Pennsylvania Gun Violence Fact Sheet
"Pennsylvania has been one of the deadliest states over the last 10 years.
• From 2001 through 2010 there were 12,941 gun deaths in Pennsylvania—the fourth-most gun deaths of all 50 states.
• In 2010 there were 1,307 gun deaths in Pennsylvania, or roughly one every seven hours.
Every two days, three people are murdered by guns in Pennsylvania.
• There were 501 gun homicides in the state in 2010.
• From 2001 through 2010, 5,061 people were murdered by guns in Pennsylvania. That number is as many as all U.S. combat deaths in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined."

Guns_PA.pdf

Now, it is quite likely that the stats in Pennsylvania were quite different when you were growing up. As they were, in most places.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:05 AM

'grow up'

Bah.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:05 AM

"If only they were so generous with sharing their recipe for Brown Sauce."

You're not ready for that, you need civilising. Get rid of the guns, grow and up and we'll consider it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:41 AM

No need to cry me old love.

You are irrelevant anyway.





Whoever you are

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

Dang! - I'm gonna have to cry myself to sleep yet again because some lily-livered Limeys don't like the laws in my country. Once asleep, however, I'll doze peacefully knowing that "on the other side of the pond" (China? Ghana? Toronto? Jamaica?) people who happen to speak English but have no relation to me whatsoever are hard at work culling statistics from the Web and solving my country's problems with the application of good old John Bull Common-Sence. Shucks. If only they were so generous with sharing their recipe for Brown Sauce.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:19 AM

Up The Gunners!

Down with the dysfunctional gun·laws which shame a great nation.

≈Michael≈
lifelong Gooner

I repeat yet again my post from the old "Drugs or Guns" thread—
"just look again at that table on that other ongoing thread of #s of deaths over a year by gunshot in various nations -- all in one- or two-figures except for the US, which is in the 2000s -- an unspeakable disgrace to your otherwise great and rightly-widely-respected nation"...

For clarification just in case needed by some benighted hillbillies somewhere: Arsenal Football Club, the greatest in our football League, are nicknamed "The Gunners", and their supporters are called "Gooners"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:47 PM

Perhaps it demonstrates how the US and UK are two Nations separated by the same language is the different meaning of The Arsenal in each language: both are religions, but of very different backgrounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM

Okay, I looked it up in the acronym dictionary; I hope you have a spare pair of pants. : )

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:29 PM

Mrrzy, PIMPLE is spelled with an E : )

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM

PIMPL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:53 AM

I know Americans are wonderful people. I have seen them on television.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:04 AM

Perhaps Max's funding of Mudcat issues could be solved overnight.

There are enough shitkicker redneck attitudes in this thread to persuade The NRA to sponsor Mudcat....

Guns, capital punishment and spray on cheese. The three main obstacles between having right of residency and taking it up. (I came very close to moving out to Monterey a few years ago.)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:35 AM

There are people in the U.S. who hunt to put food on the table. Among them my sister's neighbors.

What the Second Amendment says is: A well regulated militia being necessary to any state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.

When that was written, most towns had a militia that met on the village green and drilled regularly. Most Americans were farmers. Guns were single shot muzzle loaders.

The world has changed,

There was a time when even the NRA understood that, and pushed Congress to keep automatic weapons out of the hands of folks like Baby Face Nelson. Not a bad move. They became hardline in the sixties.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:29 AM

I made the mistake of posting a complaint to my local newspaper about gunshot vandalism in my area, and said it seemed that too many people had too many guns. Here's one response:

Joe Offer, this has nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with some moron who dosnt understand how to deal with life's problems in a normal way! No you you feel the need to attack gun owners, and if your so against guns just move away from Placer County, we all love our guns in this area, and there here to stay!!!

I note that those who defend guns most vehemently, are often lacking in grammatical skills.
Is there a connection?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:46 PM

Guns exist. Many people want to shoot them.

It seems to me a rational, morally mature gun law would be some kind of sensible compromise
between the different extremes of US and UK legislation ???

.. ok, call me naive...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:15 PM

"well you'll be relieved to know that your gun laws are the main reason, i won't visit America. It seems like a scary place."

I maintain that the laws are not the problem, it's the over-entitled cowboy mentality that is.

Don't be afraid to go to places with guns. Be afraid to go to places where guns aren't for hunting.

And the tea-tray should smack you in the hand, no? More like the end of a bat?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:43 AM

"Let Britain beware! Your former colonies are coming to get you!"

Nawww - we'll send a gunboat down the Nile, that'll have the buggers shitting their pants! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM

Out of curiosity, I just did a quick google to find out if it is even possible for responsible UK citizens
to join an accredited shooting club to train in recreational handgun marksmanship;
hiring weapons for use restricted to club premises, and owned by and supervised by qualified shooters

.. and it seems the simple answer is NO !!!

So if I want to experience the sensation of firing a magnum 45,
I'll just have to shut my eyes, hold my hands forward in a firing position,
and pretend, and shout BANG, while the wife swiftly smacks me in the wrists with a heavy wooden tea tray....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:06 AM

According the the Small Arms Survey for 2014 and in spite of its many errors and criticisms, the US is ranked #1 world-wide in small arms ownership. The UK/Wales is #88, tied with Bulgaria and Honduras and trailing Switzerland (#4), France (#12), Canada (#13), New Zealand (#22), Northern Ireland (#25), Australia (#42), Ireland (#70), and Iran (#79 and tied with Israel).

Let Britain beware! Your former colonies are coming to get you!

(Please note that this survey of small arms is an estimate, albeit a good one, and includes as small arms morters of less than 100mm, light machine guns, and submachine guns. I'm certain that Canadians possess many 81mm mortars in civilian hands, probably as many as in the US.)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

I'm with Stu.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM

You ought to fear the cops in the good old US of A, the seem to go round shooting unarmed black kids for no good reason.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Stu
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:19 AM

"well you'll be relieved to know that your gun laws are the main reason, i won't visit America. It seems like a scary place."

Well, that's a mistake. Americans are a wonderful people and I've never seen a person with a gun whenever I've been, including out in the backcountry where there are bears etc. I did see a 'no guns' sign when I went into a museum in West Virgina and that was a bit of a shock (what sort of person would take a gun into a museum anyway?).

So it's not a scary place, but it is a scared place. People have guns because either they are frightened or they're cock-wavers. You don't need an AK47 to hunt bears (as one chap on the TV was doing recently) and no-one needs automatic weapons full stop. These are designed to kill people, nothing else.

The big cultural difference between us and the US is the acceptance in the states of a culture of ultra violence, to the point where killing unarmed people, school massacres and tots being shot by accident have become everyday occurrences that are accepted as part of society.

I can't wait to get back to the US, and never think of guns when I'm there as I don't when I'm here. If my behaviour had to change because of intimidation by folk with guns I'd probably think twice though; there's enough fear in the world without exposing yourself to it for no good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

What we need is a cure for "Testosterone poisoning."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:59 AM

well you'll be relieved to know that your gun laws are the main reason, i won't visit America. It seems like a scary place.

All these freaks on the crime channel. Not just the celebrity killers like Bundy and the Green River bloke. You seem to have lunatic serial killers on every street. Every episode starts with, 'Bongville, Illinois.... a sleepy little town....a great place to bring your kids up in , and walk the the dog........But the we meet THE DOG WALKER MANIAC....nobody had noticed that he practiced quick draw in the supermarket and had car stickers saying I WANT TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE...

Look at poor John Lennon.

Defend free speech.....you have got to be joking. None of you fuckers listen to each other - so it hardly matters what you're saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:38 AM

Apologies, we do have 'hunters' (sic), there are a few remote areas where very nasty, unpleasant people go to get a hard-on shooting beautiful deer, but those are very much a tiny minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 01:59 AM

"I most fear being shot when I'm driving down Glass Run Road during hunting season"

The thought of being shot never, ever crosses my mind because, in general, we don't let people here have access to firearms. That's called sanity, BTW.

LJ, we don't have 'hunters' in the way you're thinking - we have a small number of people, mostly farmers, who go out shooting pheasants, partridge, rabbits etc. using shotguns. No-one has, or uses, high-velocity rifles, nor does anyone have hand-guns.

Americans only think they need guns because they've already got guns. Over here, where sanity has prevailed, we know that nobody needs a gun when nobody else has a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:27 PM

Lady Jean mine are in a safe also. Most responsible people use them to secure their weapons. You are right. And there is nothing wrong with venison. I don't hunt anymore because it is just me and my missus and she don't like venison

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:32 PM

I most fear being shot when I'm driving down Glass Run Road during hunting season. It's a wooded area and there are always a couple of people in there after deer. I hope and pray that they're sober and good shots.

Many Americans consider it their God given right to go out every fall and bag a buck. Including a neighbor of mine, who had an impressive arsenal, which he was wise enough to keep locked in a safe, where his elderly mum wouldn't get at them, and possibly shoot her foot off.

Anyway, I think they have hunters in England too, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:29 PM

Just out of curiosity, why is this yet again being "debated" on Mudcat? Nothing said here will change anything anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:15 PM

Look at this, and please, ignore the media hype...one school shooting does NOT change the trend but it does produce low-grade hysteria.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:53 PM

Everyone i know owns and arsenal and never hurt anyone for any reason. Good people which the vast majority are don't do criminal activity. But criminals do and no law would unarm them

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:20 PM

Could not be more wrong most area's that have the most guns... Like in PA where I was from.. Gun violence is non existent. Unlike Chicago or LA Where the right is essentially removed

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:47 PM

I'm not saying they exist everywhere else; I'm saying that where people have the right to weaponry they don't go around shooting each other except here. Look at the number of guns owned per person in Canada - yet they don't go shooting each other over what music someone is playing in their car! That kind of gun violence, or shooting up a dorm full of women because you couldn't get as laid as you felt you should have been, takes an American sense of entitlement to not have to put up with annoyance, an American sense of violence as an acceptable response to annoyance, and an American attitude that shooting people who annoy you is something to be proud of/aspire to.

It is not the legal right to own the gun that is the problem.

Many, many Americans are legal gun owners and not over-entitled, trigger-happy would-be cowboys.

Criminalizing them doesn't make the problem people any less overly entitled, less trigger-happy, or less cowboyish.

The attitude is what needs to be addressed.

Nobody has the right to happiness. Nobody is entitled to use a gun on someone who has merely lessened their happiness.

Making guns illegal won't deal with that stuffy and arrogant attitude any more than making cigarrettes illegal would detract from the Marlboro Man's appeal to popular American culture.
Make smoking uncool and it diminishes as a problem.

If we could make shooting people a shameful act...

But oh, yeah, we're not allowed to shame people any more.

Pah.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM

If you are framing the Second Amendment in the heritage to Magna Carta, then you must recognise that it is specifically feudal, in that it is in the service of Law, which the Charter had a lot to say about, establishing the first neutral legal system in the UK for hundreds of years. And to claim that the Charter is uniquely of benefit to the Barons is nonsense, if you read it: it had much to say about the Laws of Succession and of individual property at all levels of society, much of which was against the Barons customs and practices.

The evident consequence of the NRA argument in that it allows all to shoot it out at will is actually in denial of the first principle of the Constitution, the enjoyment of life. It also denies the ancestry of the Constitution, in the Charter. Clause 39 remains to this day: "No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land."

And in plain common sense, I think you now have adequate pragmatic precedent to call their bluff.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

"the same legal rights to weaponry exist elsewhere"

Not here in UK, they don't; and we continue to gaze in amazement at the results of yours. I repeat, yet again that 2 y.o post of mine on the "Drugs or Guns" thread --

just look again at that table on that other ongoing thread of #s of deaths over a year by gunshot in various nations -- all in one- or two-figures except for the US, which is in the 2000s -- an unspeakable disgrace to your otherwise great and rightly-widely-respected nation...

How do you go on living with it? Justifying it? Making all sorts of excuses for it?

Just look at those numbers again; & for god's sake stop and THINK!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:02 PM

Again, y'all are confusing the laws with the abusers thereof.

It isn't the gun LAW that is at issue in the US, the same legal rights to weaponry exist elsewhere.

The issue is that Americans have come to believe that they have an inalienable right to Happiness directly, rather than to the pursuit thereof.

And that using violence is seen as a viable second or first or third option, rather than as a last resort.

And that using a gun, in particular, is macho, cowboy-ish, admirable and cool, like all (Marlboro) men should be and all women admire and be round-heeled for.

If people had realized Bush II was a redneck and not a cowboy, he wouldn't have gotten nearly as far.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Janie
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM

I've been participating in an on-line discussion sponsored by News21 for the past 4 weeks - invited through my participation in the Pubic Insight Network. Has been interesting. News21 has now gone live with their multimedia reportage. It is extensive - and maybe not that informative in some ways, but does reveal the deep divide in the USA regardin issues related to guns. The discussions on the forum in which I participated were very informative regarding attitudes and the philosophies and paradigms that guide folks views. I have come away from it with the understanding that there are some rivers over which it is going to be very, very difficult to build bridges.

Here is a link to the News21 project. http://gunwars.news21.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:54 AM

Does "defending the document" include making excuses for the massacres in school yards?

Fascinating, the breadth of humanity you get on Mudcat, from normal people to frankly disturbing views.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM

> The Magna Carta is far from being a sacred document; it was a bunch
> of toffs protecting their own interests from the monarchy. Why it's
> touted as some sort of milestone in the freedom of ordinary folk is
> beyond me: it's the aristocracy making sure they're all right.

I agree with some of your analysis, MC was never a social contract between the government and the populace.

The reason the MC is a milestone is because it is the first time law was held as applying to an absolute ruler. It was the first step on the road to our current position - which although it can be much improved is still far far better than it was 1000 years ago.

Take a look at all the failed states around the world (especially those with dictators) and in a lot of cases applying a modern Magna Carta would probably improve things.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM

Oh, I couldn't have the FN Minimi either -- that's a light machine gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:46 AM

The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home (until 2007 this also included ammunition.

These "personal weapons" include:

Individual weapons

    Sturmgewehr 90 assault rifle (200,000)
    Sturmgewehr 57 battle rifle (2,000)
    Pistole 75 semi-automatic pistol (30,000)
    Pistole 49 semi-automatic pistol (1,000)
    Pistole 03 semi-automatic pistol (Military Police)
    Glock semi-automatic pistol (Swiss Grenadiers, ARD 10, FSK-17)
    FN Minimi
    Heckler & Koch MP5 submachinegun
    Brügger & Thomet MP9 machine pistol
    Tuma MTE 224 VA machine pistol
    Remington 870 multipurpose shotgun (known as Mehrzweckgewehr 91)
    Sako TRG-42 8.6 mm anti-personnel sniper rifle   (Scharfschützengewehr 04)
    PGM Hecate II 12.7 mm anti-materiel heavy sniper rifle (Präzisionsgewehr 04)

                           (Info from Wikipedia)

I could not. without permitting, own or keep a machine pistol, an MP5, or any weapon with fully automatic capability. Don't want one -- couldn't afford the ammunition even if I had one.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:06 AM

No, you no longer have to practice archery.

http://archery.mysaga.net/archlaws.html